Talk:1994 Finnish presidential election
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Pekka Tiainen's party affiliation
[edit]According to the academic work, Elections in Europe, Tiainen was an independent. This is supported by Statistics Finland, which has him listed as a "Group of persons" candidate.
On the other hand, the argument for him being the Communist Workers' Party candidate is a newspaper article from two years before the elections took place.
Based on this evidence, I can't see how the newspaper article's line could possibly be favoured over the other two. Number 57 15:40, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
- Pekka Tiainen was an candite from Communist Workers' Party . Here is an Helsingin Sanomat article from 1992 about the news [1]. It is true that there was an independent group backing him but he was acually an canditate from Communist Workers' Party which wasn't an parliamental party in 1992. According to Finnish election rules an non-parliamental party needs to get 5000 signitures to take place in the elections as an canditate.Newspaper article is right in this case. There is an error in the Statistics Finland. Now I am from Finland so argueing this issue with English Wikipedian is quite strange situation. --Mannerheimo (talk) 15:45, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
- The newspaper article is from two years before the elections (which means something could have happened in the two years before the elections). The newspaper is also the least reliable of the three potential sources. Number 57 15:58, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
- The newspaper article is just one sourch but I can get you several sourches on Tiainen's party affiliation but they are all in Finnish. If you understand the language you have more information. I can also get you some book sourches. But as I said they are all in Finnish. --Mannerheimo (talk) 16:03, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
- Here is more sourches on Tiainen's party affiliation; [2], [3], [4], if you read these articles you will find that Tiainen was canditate from Communist Workers' Party--Mannerheimo (talk) 16:12, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
- If there is no more counter argument on the sourches on Tiainen's party affiliation I gues the sourches have proven my point of view. I will not change the main article as know but in few days from know I will come back to the issue. --Mannerheimo (talk) 16:41, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
- OK, so now we have two sets of apparently reliable sources saying opposite things. How do we decide which ones are correct? I cannot see why the official source (Statistics Finland) would be wrong here. Is it possible that whilst he was supported by Communist Workers' Party and was also a member of the party, he still ran as an independent candidate? This is quite a common occurence in other countries.
- The only source that I can think would be better than Statistics Finland would be an actual copy of the ballot paper from the election, as presumably the candidate's party affiliation would be listed on it. Is there any chance you can find a copy? Number 57 06:40, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
- In Finland all non-parliamental parties have to form an independent group which needs to file 5000 campaign cards. Tiainen was canditate from Communist Workers' Party. In Finland this is normal process. In the UK where you are from I don't know the system to run in the elections as non-parliamental party canditate. Statistics Finland has error but these articles are interviews of Tiainen. --Mannerheimo (talk) 09:23, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
- As I said, I think the best way to settle this is to see how he was listed on the ballot paper. Number 57 09:33, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
- Well that is one settlement but do we have the 1994 elections ballot paper some where has sourch? --Mannerheimo (talk) 20:05, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
- As there is no settlement on Tiainen's party affiliation between the users Mannerheimo and Number 57 but there are strong sourches to support the Tiainen's canditateship for Communist Workers' Party I see that he was an canditate for the Communist Workers' Party and that should be added to the main article. --Mannerheimo (talk) 18:34, 15 January 2017 (UTC)
- It shouldn't be added until there is consensus to do so. Until I see a copy of the ballot paper with him listed as CWP candidate, I'll stick with the official source, which has him as an independent. Number 57 07:43, 17 January 2017 (UTC)
- It is just inpossible to get the ballot paper as sourch because they are not available online. I have three sourches which backs Tiainen's CWP canditateship but if they don't suite you it is not my problem. Discussion ends here. I will continue until new sourches are there. Thanks. --Mannerheimo (talk) 09:43, 17 January 2017 (UTC)
- It's not that those sources don't suit me, it's that they are contradicted by a source which is more likely to be correct, together with an academic publication. As I said, from what I have seen in other countries, this looks like a case of someone running as an independent with the backing of a party (which newspapers often do not differentiate but official and academic sources would). Number 57 14:34, 17 January 2017 (UTC)
- If the sources suites you but you are still not sure about them then you should do your own search . I don't understandt your logic between academic publicatons and other. In Finland we have election rules that says that non-parliamental parties must get 20 000 signitures to able to run for presidential elections. For parliament it is 100 signitures and local elections 10 signitures. Tiainen was nominated by CWP as their canditate but CWP wasn't parliamental party so they needed to get 20 000 signitures to back Tiainen has their canditate. Some academic studies (like Statistics Finland) don't have this information. I don't know why, you should ask the academics who made the study. Discussion ends here until you accept the sourches or you just have to understand the election rules of Finland because this is an Finnish presidential election canditate which we are discussion about. Well any way you English have an British Monarchy so you don't vote your head of state like we do in Finland. We can also discus who are more parliamential Finland or United Kingdom but that is an nother issue. I will wait for your comments. --Mannerheimo (talk) 16:41, 17 January 2017 (UTC)
- I will try and contact the person who wrote the chapter in the book on Finland (previously I had a response from another author when there was a query over San Marino). Echoing what you've said, please accept the sources that say he was an independent. I'm not sure why you keep referring to British politics as I don't really edit British politics articles (unless you're trying to make the point that you think I don't understand politics in other countries, in which case you are veering into WP:OWN territory). I'll let you know if I get a response from them. Number 57 03:50, 18 January 2017 (UTC)
- The point which I am trying to say is that an Wikipedian from Finland or elsewhere understands the politics of the country which the user comes more than other user from other country. Tiainen was CWP candidate. There is no reason to accept that he run as independent candidate but the fact is that he was CWP candidate. He as been also running from the CWP party previously in parliamential and local elections. Finnish election system works the way it works. We don't have an House of Lords. --Mannerheimo (talk) 08:49, 18 January 2017 (UTC)
- That's an incredibly arrogant statement to make, and also incorrect in numerous cases. If you really think that, then I'm afraid there is no place for you on Wikipedia. As for there being "no reason to accept that he run as independent candidate", there are two very good reasons – the official source and the book that the results are source to. I am not sure what point you are making about the House of Lords as I have no interest in that body. Number 57 09:14, 18 January 2017 (UTC)
- This is not an question of opinion but facts. I have given several sourches about Tiainen's CWP candidateship. I will continue this discussion until we have understanding on the basic facts. We don't have it currently. I am from Finland I have made several articles about Finnish politics. I think as Finnish Wikipedian I have more information ( Finnish sourches) on this issues than other Non-Finnish wikipedians. This is my opinion but there is some evidence on it. --Mannerheimo (talk) 10:04, 18 January 2017 (UTC)
- And I have provided sources too, one of which is an official government source. I see no point in continuing to go around in circles, so I won't add anything more here until I hear back from the person who wrote the chapter in the Nohlen book or until we have a copy of the ballot paper or some other definitive proof that betters the official source. However, I will revert you again if you attempt to change the article, so please do not attempt to force your change into it until there is consensus. I also think you need to reconsider your attitude towards other Wikipedians (I too have created a few articles on Finnish politics, but there we go). Perhaps in the meantime you can go and lecture the presumably non-Finnish editors of Finnish wikipedia, who have also listed him as an independent. Cheers, Number 57 10:47, 18 January 2017 (UTC)
- Some times official government sources are not always correct. They have their errors. Studing Finnish politicial election history since 1994 is just reading political books on the issues not only in English. Linguistical challenges have more bigger issue in Finland than in the English speaking world. I am not concidering to change the article but consensus dosen't mean that I will execpt your arguments just like that. consensus should be understanging on the issues of common facts and sourches. There is an error in the Tiainen's canditateship which is not an optionion it is an fact which have supported by the sourches which I have given in the discussion page. --Mannerheimo (talk) 11:28, 18 January 2017 (UTC)
- Ironically, when I checked the Nohlen book in order to contact the authors of the chapter (it was written by two Finns, fi:Dag Anckar and fi:Carsten Anckar, just so you don't get upset about non-Finnish involvement), it turns out I had misread Tianen's party affiliation and he was not listed as an independent. However, he also isn't listed as a Communist Workers' Party candidate, he is listed as a Communist Party of Finland candidate... I am not so sure now, so perhaps we should invite a WP:3O to settle this. Personally I think we should still go with the official source, but shall we see what a third person says? Number 57 19:41, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
- Some times official government sources are not always correct. They have their errors. Studing Finnish politicial election history since 1994 is just reading political books on the issues not only in English. Linguistical challenges have more bigger issue in Finland than in the English speaking world. I am not concidering to change the article but consensus dosen't mean that I will execpt your arguments just like that. consensus should be understanging on the issues of common facts and sourches. There is an error in the Tiainen's canditateship which is not an optionion it is an fact which have supported by the sourches which I have given in the discussion page. --Mannerheimo (talk) 11:28, 18 January 2017 (UTC)
- And I have provided sources too, one of which is an official government source. I see no point in continuing to go around in circles, so I won't add anything more here until I hear back from the person who wrote the chapter in the Nohlen book or until we have a copy of the ballot paper or some other definitive proof that betters the official source. However, I will revert you again if you attempt to change the article, so please do not attempt to force your change into it until there is consensus. I also think you need to reconsider your attitude towards other Wikipedians (I too have created a few articles on Finnish politics, but there we go). Perhaps in the meantime you can go and lecture the presumably non-Finnish editors of Finnish wikipedia, who have also listed him as an independent. Cheers, Number 57 10:47, 18 January 2017 (UTC)
- This is not an question of opinion but facts. I have given several sourches about Tiainen's CWP candidateship. I will continue this discussion until we have understanding on the basic facts. We don't have it currently. I am from Finland I have made several articles about Finnish politics. I think as Finnish Wikipedian I have more information ( Finnish sourches) on this issues than other Non-Finnish wikipedians. This is my opinion but there is some evidence on it. --Mannerheimo (talk) 10:04, 18 January 2017 (UTC)
- That's an incredibly arrogant statement to make, and also incorrect in numerous cases. If you really think that, then I'm afraid there is no place for you on Wikipedia. As for there being "no reason to accept that he run as independent candidate", there are two very good reasons – the official source and the book that the results are source to. I am not sure what point you are making about the House of Lords as I have no interest in that body. Number 57 09:14, 18 January 2017 (UTC)
- The point which I am trying to say is that an Wikipedian from Finland or elsewhere understands the politics of the country which the user comes more than other user from other country. Tiainen was CWP candidate. There is no reason to accept that he run as independent candidate but the fact is that he was CWP candidate. He as been also running from the CWP party previously in parliamential and local elections. Finnish election system works the way it works. We don't have an House of Lords. --Mannerheimo (talk) 08:49, 18 January 2017 (UTC)
- I will try and contact the person who wrote the chapter in the book on Finland (previously I had a response from another author when there was a query over San Marino). Echoing what you've said, please accept the sources that say he was an independent. I'm not sure why you keep referring to British politics as I don't really edit British politics articles (unless you're trying to make the point that you think I don't understand politics in other countries, in which case you are veering into WP:OWN territory). I'll let you know if I get a response from them. Number 57 03:50, 18 January 2017 (UTC)
- If the sources suites you but you are still not sure about them then you should do your own search . I don't understandt your logic between academic publicatons and other. In Finland we have election rules that says that non-parliamental parties must get 20 000 signitures to able to run for presidential elections. For parliament it is 100 signitures and local elections 10 signitures. Tiainen was nominated by CWP as their canditate but CWP wasn't parliamental party so they needed to get 20 000 signitures to back Tiainen has their canditate. Some academic studies (like Statistics Finland) don't have this information. I don't know why, you should ask the academics who made the study. Discussion ends here until you accept the sourches or you just have to understand the election rules of Finland because this is an Finnish presidential election canditate which we are discussion about. Well any way you English have an British Monarchy so you don't vote your head of state like we do in Finland. We can also discus who are more parliamential Finland or United Kingdom but that is an nother issue. I will wait for your comments. --Mannerheimo (talk) 16:41, 17 January 2017 (UTC)
- It's not that those sources don't suit me, it's that they are contradicted by a source which is more likely to be correct, together with an academic publication. As I said, from what I have seen in other countries, this looks like a case of someone running as an independent with the backing of a party (which newspapers often do not differentiate but official and academic sources would). Number 57 14:34, 17 January 2017 (UTC)
- It is just inpossible to get the ballot paper as sourch because they are not available online. I have three sourches which backs Tiainen's CWP canditateship but if they don't suite you it is not my problem. Discussion ends here. I will continue until new sourches are there. Thanks. --Mannerheimo (talk) 09:43, 17 January 2017 (UTC)
- It shouldn't be added until there is consensus to do so. Until I see a copy of the ballot paper with him listed as CWP candidate, I'll stick with the official source, which has him as an independent. Number 57 07:43, 17 January 2017 (UTC)
- As I said, I think the best way to settle this is to see how he was listed on the ballot paper. Number 57 09:33, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
- In Finland all non-parliamental parties have to form an independent group which needs to file 5000 campaign cards. Tiainen was canditate from Communist Workers' Party. In Finland this is normal process. In the UK where you are from I don't know the system to run in the elections as non-parliamental party canditate. Statistics Finland has error but these articles are interviews of Tiainen. --Mannerheimo (talk) 09:23, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
- The newspaper article is from two years before the elections (which means something could have happened in the two years before the elections). The newspaper is also the least reliable of the three potential sources. Number 57 15:58, 12 January 2017 (UTC)