Talk:2019–20 Australian bushfire season/Archive 6

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Split of article into their respective states

I request that we split this article into 2019-20 New South Wales bushfire season, 2019-20 Victoria bushfire season,... This would shorten the total article length as well as resolve the disputes with the 'end' of the bushfire season. Discuss. JMonkey2006 (talk) 11:33, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

Wouldn't it just make the problem six times as difficult? And what if differing state articles produced different decisions on the Season/Dates choice? Realistically, creating seven fresh articles - does the ACT get one as well? - because of debate about one line in the infobox seems a little much. --Pete (talk) 03:12, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

Unfortunately it will not help with the definition of what a season is. If the premis is to split by state to allow separation of dates by smaller geographic areas then we might/would have to go down to each local government area, because each and every one of these in most states can separately and differently have their own "fire danger periods". Aoziwe (talk) 11:04, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

Capitalize 'black summer'

Is it possible to capitalize 'black summer' under the lead definition section. It should be capitalized due to being an even, like Black Saturday. It would also make the paragraph look tidier as well. -- Deathblue1993 (talk) 06:58, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

Done --Pete (talk) 07:00, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 April 2020

This seems to be a NSW Centric history. The role played by QFES has been downplayed. QLD fires were occurring early in the fire emergency however they continued well into December with severe fires and deployments both within QLD and Interstate. I would like to think that for accuracy more of Queensland's involvement be included especially as QLD lost the third largest amount of Bush.

I have been a member of both NSW and QLD rural Fire Services and was involved with this devastating fire. Everyone makes it out to be all about NSW. It is not. 1.128.107.146 (talk) 02:52, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

 Not done. It's not clear what changes you want to make. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 03:30, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 6 May 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved buidhe 05:19, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

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2019–20 Australian bushfire season → 2019–2020 Australian bushfire season – Per requested move of 2019–2020 Persian Gulf crisis, 2019–2020 Iraqi protests, etc. 36.68.160.53 (talk) 08:58, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose - this isn't a stand-alone article, there are many other articles for Australian bushfire seasons in other years (see the navbox at the bottom of the article) which use the same date format. Bahudhara (talk) 14:07, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose The name of this article, and the other season articles, would be much better renamed as Australian bushfires 2019–20, dropping the word eason altogether, for reasons highly discussed ... Aoziwe (talk) 14:29, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose There is already an established naming convention for the inclusion of years in page titles. LSGH (talk) (contributions) 09:38, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose. While we should indeed have year ranges expressed as 4-digit to 4-digit in some other cases, it would be misguided to move this article as MOSNUM permits years in the format "20XX–XX+1". There's no possibility of misconstruing it as yyyy-mm, both because of the ndash (obligatory separator for year ranges, as opposed to the hyphen in year-month) as well as the number that exceeds 12; also, "2019–20 Australian bushfire season" is more concise and elegant and easier to type than "2019–2020 Australian bushfire season". Also, plenty of articles spanning two consecutive years with the naming format "20XX–XX+1" exist, particularly with sporting seasons articles such as English football, NBA and elsewhere. I suggest that this discussion be closed per WP:SNOW. --Ohconfucius (on the move) (talk) 15:02, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose basically what everyone else said. Starzoner (talk) 23:03, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Related discussion on another page: Talk:The Post Millennial

Hi there. I recently rolled back an IP edit that concerns media coverage of the 2019–20 Australian bushfire season. I describe my reasoning for this rollback on Talk:The Post Millennial. Since page watchers here are probably more knowledgeable about that situation than I am, I'd appreciate if someone could double-check my reasoning on the matter. Thanks! Jlevi (talk) 14:58, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

End of Australia bushfire season

According to Al Jazeera, the authorities in Australia have announced the end of this bushfire season. Should this be considered as the end of the ongoing status? This is quite logical I think to consider the official announcement as the actual end. Just my grain of salt to the ongoing debate on wether the end date should be the de jure end or the de facto end regarding THIS particular fire and not fires in general. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/03/australia-devastating-bushfire-season-200331094924419.html

24.200.142.118 (talk) 17:15, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

Oh dear, not this topic again. (Sorry IP editor, but this topic has been pretty much drained of life by the efforts of one editor further up this page. Not your fault.) Firstly, the Al Jazeera article is describing what it claims is the situation "across southern and eastern Australia", which obviously isn't the whole country. Secondly, I'm not convinced it's true. Individual municipalities and fire authorities across the country define fire seasons. There are hundreds of the former, and at least a dozen of the latter. I'd have to see evidence (somewhat hard to collect) that every one of them has defined the fire season to be over. So I don't think the article should say so yet. HiLo48 (talk) 23:46, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

Here a source that says Both the ACT Emergency Service Agency (ESA) and the NSW Rural Fire Service (RFS) marked the end of the bushfire season by thanking its members and the community during an extremely challenging season--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 02:56, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

That's only a tiny bit more than one state, around 10% of the whole country. HiLo48 (talk) 03:08, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

We are never going to get a reliable source saying that the bushfire season in all of Australia is over for this year. We didn't last year, and we didn't the year before and the year before that and well, ever. The longer you wait for a reliable source, HiLo, the more ridiculous we look, and the more people come along and say, you Wikipedia guys have your heads up your bums. We have an official source showing the various regional seasons, and if we have articles claiming they describe the Australian bushfire season, we have to take into account all of them, and they run from Winter in the north until the following Autumn in the South. There's our Australian bushfire season, with a reliable source and everything. Geez. --Pete (talk) 04:43, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

The fact that one editor here has aggressively pushed three entirely different views on this matter is probably the biggest indication that "you Wikipedia guys have your heads up your bums." You contributions have not helped here. HiLo48 (talk) 05:06, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

Oh well, sorry. I didn't want to bother anyone. I thought by reading the title of the al jazeera post that this could finally be the source to end all your headache about when to end this. Also, since they concerned the south and east part of Australia where most of the fires where, I thought it could be a sign that the whole wildfire thing stopped being major enough to be considered "ongoing". It's kinda hard to figure out how something presently occuring actually ends, because if there's small wildfires that occur after the officials says it's over, are they part of the 2019-2020 wildfires or not? Here's my idea: when the australian government would say "it's okay now, the emergency status is over concerning wildifres" or something like that, you end the "ongoing status" of this page and create a section titled "aftermath" where fires considered as continuation of this would be put. 24.200.142.118 (talk) 05:15, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

30 June is the only sensible date. Emergency statuses are quite rare, but we have bushfires every year. HiLo48 (talk) 05:22, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

Do you have a reliable source for 30 June, HiLo? Could be the solution to our problems. Otherwise it kind of sounds like a date you just pulled out of your pocket. --Pete (talk) 06:40, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

WP:BLUESKY. We will never find an acceptable, reliable source that gives a single, sensible date for the end of the bushfire season across the whole of Australia. If we are going to have the two years in the name, like financial years, 30 June is the only logical answer. Everything else is actually OR. HiLo48 (talk) 06:46, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

I think equating the financial year with the bushfire season is a odd and in fact unique view. Do you have any reliable sources for this? I'd be very interested to see them! Not quite the generally accepted views that WP:BLUESKY is intended to cover. But hey, if you think it is, then a source should be easy to come up with. Over to you. --Pete (talk) 06:52, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

Seriously now, getting away from what looks like an April Fool's Day joke, we have the Bureau of Meteorology source quoted above, and the somewhat more cerebral source about frequency and intensity of bushfires across the whole continent dropping to a low in May. --Pete (talk) 07:01, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

A reality that is WP:BLUESKY does not require sources. Now, I know you cannot help disagreeing with pretty much anything I write. How about you try hard, hold back, and see what others think? HiLo48 (talk) 07:03, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

Do you have one source? There are so many sources saying that the sky is blue that we don't really need to source it. Your contention that the Fiscal year is equivalent to the bushfire season seems to be a first. It sounds like original research to me, but I've led a sheltered life. --Pete (talk) 07:06, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

This is all work that has been done before. Let Bushfires in Australia#Seasonality be our guide on the path to wisdom. --Pete (talk) 07:06, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

I knew you wouldn't be able to hold back. HiLo48 (talk) 07:09, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

Perhaps the name is the problem?

On reviewing the discussion, it seems that we all know where we want to go; we just stumble over the details. We're never going to get an authoritative source stating that the 2019/20 season is over. A couple of times now we've had people drop by and say that the season is over, quoting one source or another, and others have pointed out that there are still fires burning.

Well, there's always going to be bushfires burning in Australia. It's a whole continent. They never stop, just drop to a minimum somewhere in the middle of the calendar year. And, as our Bureau of Meteorology source points out, there are various seasons in various regions.

Sourcing is the issue. We can't just make stuff up and declare that the season is over based on some piddling little local rag, and we're never going to get a national source giving a precise end date. I mean, we never have in the past, and why should this year be any different?

Having a season that lasts twelve months seems to be the reality, given the diversity of climate and terrain. Perhaps we could usefully call it a "year" rather than a season, just as we have a financial year that doesn't match up with the calendar year.[1]

That way, we wouldn't need sourcing to say what the season(s) is/are. It's just a wikiconvenience, an arbitrary break to manage reporting bushfires in a land where bushfires never cease to rage. --Pete (talk) 15:34, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

The above seems familiar. Aoziwe (talk) 22:52, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

Yes Aoziwe, it certainly is, but it means Pete has now taken four entirely different, mutually exclusive positions on this matter over the past two months, which is just a little confusing. I have made suggestions along the same lines (not as well expounded as yours). It will be interesting to see if he can bring himself to openly say he agrees with you. (Or me?) But maybe we can at least head together down a sensible path now. HiLo48 (talk) 00:21, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

I floated that boat on 6 March, so I don't think it can be called a new approach. Nevertheless, it seems like we might be heading toward an agreement. --Pete (talk) 02:14, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

S. M. Davey & A. Sarre, both members of the Australian Forestry editorial board. "This editorial provides information on the Black Summer bushfires, which occurred during the eight-month period to the end of February 2020" "Nearly all fires were extinguished by the end of February 2020, with rainfall events occurring across much of southern and eastern Australia." The rest of the editorial, published June 4th, talks about the season in general exclusively in the past tense. I presume two researchers of Australian forests are sufficiently authoritative. If I'm mistaken... it's June now. One way or another, 'ongoing' seems to have ended. Westrim (talk) 21:42, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Only talks about the season in Eastern Australia. There were still fires happening in WA in May! Bidgee (talk) 16:22, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

As noted by prior commenters, fires happen in Australia year round, but making the season effectively a 12 month period should either be standardized, with citations, and propagated through all previous fire season articles and nullifying any conversation about when it ends, or recognized as having yearly high points and low points, and only the high points as the season. Most phenomena with seasonality can occur year round. India has rains outside of monsoon season, the Atlantic has cyclonic storms outside of hurricane season, Oklahoma has tornadoes in November, and so on. Fire is no different. If there is regional bias in the source, please point it out. I see several options:

1. Begin/end seasons when an authoritative source says they begin/end on a case by case basis. This is my preference.

2. Change all XXXX/XX Australia bushfire season articles to XXXX/XX Australia bushfires, since the notion of seasonality is moot and misleading if we treat it as lasting 365 days -that's a year, not a season, which is a portion of a year.

2A: Break out the Black Summer fires in particular from this article, as an event within the larger season. This is a minor preference of mine.

3. Have articles for the various Australian states for notable years, similar to the 2 dozen or so US states that have them (notably, none of them seem to bother with defining a season, they seem to usually just tabulate the major fires of a given year by their naming scheme and give some weather background). Westrim (talk) 07:07, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

What does USA and India have to do with Australia, when the climate is totally different? This article is not about the fire season in "Eastern and Southern Australia" (which what your source focuses on) but Australia as a whole. The fire season for 2019-20 was still current (I had raised this here or on another related page regarding SA and WA) for much of Australia, even though most of the fires in NSW and Vic ("Eastern Australia") were considered out by March, this article after all is "2019–20 Australian bushfire season" not "2019–20 Eastern Australian bushfire season".

Seasons in each state and territory typically have season/danger periods that takes into account the season (up north above the Tropic of Capricorn in around June, slowly extending south heading into October and into December for Tasmania, most states see it end in March and April [excluding WA, where it goes into June]) but each season is different depending on if it has been wet (average or above average rain) or dry (drought). Even looking at NSW, the bushfire danger period ended at different times with some parts of the state ending in March and April. In WA, ongoing drought and a unseasonal ex-tropical cyclone mixed with a strong low moving up from the south, which is why the late May event happened but it was still within the season in WA in the north and just outside the season in the SW (see DFES). There were also fires reported in April into early May in SW WA. Bidgee (talk) 08:58, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Further more, a FAQ (2019–20 Australian bushfires—frequently asked questions: a quick guide)on the Parliament of Australia website states "Although the major fires are now considered extinguished and the bushfire season is drawing to a close", the page is dated 12 March 2020 and even the CSIRO implies the season was still ongoing on 18 February. Editorial: the 2019/20 Black Summer bushfires is not a peer-reviewed article but only an editorial that mostly focuses on NSW and Victoria and the term "Black Summer bushfires" only become more commonly known after NSW and Vic had widespread fires during Christmas and New Year, well after Northern NSW and SE Qld burned from ~September, with the exception of the Mid North Coast of NSW which had a peat fire in July through to February. Bidgee (talk) 10:15, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Well, we're off on the wrong foot. I don't know how we can have a conversation if you did not comprehend that those were A: examples, of B:seasonality applying for significantly less than a year, which as far as I know is a universal application of the concept. Individual occurrences of a phenomenon (rain, cyclones, fire, football, television programs) occurring throughout a year does not mean that their season is year round. Their season is only during the period of peak intensity and its ramp up and down. Australia also has a monsoon, usually defined as somewhere around December-March (it's lateness was a major factor in the intensity of the fires this season). Do you intend to propose that rain in July would mean that monsoon season lasts until July? Your own second paragraph solidifies that, as all regional seasons are periods of months, not a year. As to the editorial, it discusses the south east several times... because that is where the Black Summer fires were concentrated, and where one of their 5 sources concerns itself. That does not nullify the statement that the season for Australia ended in February, as the rate of fire dropped off severely in that month for the nation as a whole. Perhaps it can be said to end in March, but February is what I found an authoritative source for. To recap, not every single fire that occurs in Australia is going to be part of a season, or seasonality has little meaning and these articles are misleadingly titled.

So do you propose to end/ modify this line of articles and have new lines of articles for each region/ state as necessary, which was one of the options I suggested? That is how I interpret your comments, given your focus on breaking down seasonality rather than considering Australia as a whole. Westrim (talk) 20:00, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Monsoon is a silly example, there has never been a Monsoon in July. You are clearly not from Australia and have zero bushfire understanding nor training. you clearly ignored the other sources given that dispute the editorial source that your pushing for. At the end of the day the fire seasons in Australia do not always follow a set period of time (each state/territory has a period set out when there is a typical season, for NSW it typically is March, while SW WA is April), fire fighting agencies determine this based on a number of factors, it can move forward and/or extended, in rare cases ended early. Again the fire seasons do not follow months or time, it is more complex than that. Also the season ended on 31 March for the ACT.

Don't lecture me where the "Black Summer bushfires" were burning, I live in NSW and was one of many who fought one of many fires in the state. I also raised the issue of your editorial source mostly focusing on NSW and Vic. Again, this is an article on Australia as a whole, not Eastern Australia. Bidgee (talk) 22:25, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Furthermore "the bushfire season in New South Wales and parts of Victoria now began in August, three months earlier than in the 1950s. The fire season in Victoria has also extended one month further in autumn. - Dr Karl Braganza, Bureau of Meteorology" Source: The Guardian. Sadly only focuses on Eastern Australia but it doesn't support February, "Fire weather conditions in south-eastern Australia were severe from August 2019 until March 2020. - Kevin Tolhurst, University of Melbourne" Soruce: It's 12 months since the last bushfire season began, but don't expect the same this year - The Conversation. Bidgee (talk) 23:16, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Monsoons are irrelevant, except for their impact on the likelihood of fires in northern Australia. Bidgee is right. That "new" source is from foresters, people interested in logging timber, something only done in small parts of the country. They can define THEIR season, but this article is about the whole country, one I can guess that our new contributor here doesn't live in because of their spelling conventions. (A lot of instances of z where I would use an s.) HiLo48 (talk) 02:01, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

I'm at a loss. I'm not coming up with a good way to restate my usage of an example of seasonality. This is why I'm not a teacher; I have, however, traveled several times for extended duration in my life, and choose to use the formatting of wherever I currently reside. But... I also don't know how to make light of your observation of my spelling. I'm also not a frequent Wikipedian by any means!

I suppose I can try to veer back to my point (and to addressing now both parties); either the Australian bushfire season is a season, and we can choose an authoritative source for its ending. I don't particularly care what that is; I felt I found a good source and used it, but I'm in no way wedded to it. Use one that says March, or April, or even May, and go for it! I just saw a page with an ongoing event that made me react "well, clearly this is over" and look up information about it, and used what I understood and what I found to make an edit on defunct topic, that, from what I saw, lacked only a source to be wrapped up, and now this is taking entirely too much time.

Or this article isn't about a season, it's just a catalogue of fire events on a June 1st/May 31st yearly cycle, in which case the formatting of this series of articles needs to change in one of several ways. I've presented my thoughts on that above. Bidgee, you seem to keep coming back to different states having different seasons, which I have not disputed, but, as you say, this article is not about those regional seasons, it's about the whole of Australia. Again, simply changing the name may be a good option! But the article title says season, and so we seek the season that best fits the nation as a whole. If you wish to change the title and make articles for the seasons of the different States/ regions (however you prefer to present it) or pursue some other path to clarity I say go for it, and if you want help setting that up, you need only ask. I didn't come here to trouble anyone's day.Westrim (talk) 04:25, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

I can no longer assume good faith and in fact do not care, since this is my last ever edit on Wikipedia (which has become European and North American bias). Your the only one who want February, if I wanted to I could have used the norm (June 2019 - June 2020) but I didn't, you could be the one to gain consensus to use your flawed February theory that the season ended then (when it was only the most of the major fires burning in Eastern Australia). Of course every state and territory has different timing with the season, it even changes by region within each state and territory due to local factors. I no longer want to be part of a project where we have one person who have no clue of Australia and you clearly have your head buried in sand.

BTW do not edit other people's comments, even if there are typos! Bidgee (talk) 04:41, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Actually, Westrim is not the only one who believes in Feb. I would say that too. The general public also knows it as Feb. Almost everyone who you ask will say that. But I suppost that that's for Black Summer and not as a country as a whole. However, I'm with Westrim for Feb. AussieCoinCollector (talk) 01:29, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

• Formally for Western Australia the bushfire season runs from October until end of April, the same period that the Cyclone season runs in the northern half of the country. This season we had both late bushfires in WA and a late cyclones both occurring in May. The bushfire season isnt measured by the last fire its the period where restrictions on burning are implemented, and where risk is assessed multiple times a day by the BON and fire services. During this period there are also additional requirements and assessment processes for hazard reduction burns including permit systems. This is formal government defined period as part of legislation under the WA Bushfires act, and DFES act. Gnangarra 23:57, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

But I think its a confusion with Black summer and the entire country so Westrim is wrong. AussieCoinCollector (talk) wish the entire world's COVID-19 status was like WA, 275+ days of no local cases :) 03:24, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

• Similar legislation is in place for NSW with the Rural Fires Act 1997 (Sec 81 General bush fire danger period sets out 1 October to 31 March, though Sec 82 Local bush fire danger period can be used by the Commissioner where required. SA on the other hand changes season by season, per Fire and Emergency Services Act 2005 Sec 78 Fire danger season, it is published by the Commissioner in the Gazette. In the 2018-19 season it was extended, the 2019-20 season some parts were as early as the 21 October and ending as late as 30 April in parts of the state. Bidgee (talk) 00:44, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

References

Rollback of Infrastructure edits

I've made some inserts today to discuss infrastructure effects which are continuing to play out and impact fire affected landholders, which have now been reverted twice.

Realise the scope of the article is national, but the rural/public timber bridge impacts that were included are also extensive, affect many firegrounds + individuals. We're actively dealing with this as a live issue through NGO partners, building on earlier work in preparing BushfireRC submissions. If this is NOT the page on which to include disaster impacts like that, then where is? Its trivial rollbacks like this which stop people contributing to page refinement + evolution. Ausfirehack (talk) 07:02, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

The rollbacks/reverts are not trivial, part of the "BOLD, revert, discuss cycle". Your addition is written like an essay that contains original research, in at least two references you have used has nothing to do with bushfires, let alone last season. This is an encyclopaedia, not a news article or blog. Also your username is in violation of WP:ORGNAME. Bidgee (talk) 09:57, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

Ausfirehack - Diversify. Pause and listen to experienced editors. You are new here. We cannot add all the ongoing issues in one part of the country to a national article for just one fire season. You look like a potentially valuable editor here. Get out there and have a look at other articles where you may be able to help. Learn how things work here. The content you're keen on adding may belong somewhere, but not here. HiLo48 (talk) 10:16, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

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Donations

The article should say who the donations went to.--Jack Upland (talk) 01:44, 30 August 2021 (UTC)