Talk:Myanmar civil war (2021–present)
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The "Timeline" section is too long and simply unreadable
[edit]This is actually a common issue of all wikipedia articles covering ongoing conflicts. Every new event is added, but when they turn out to be minor and next to irrelevant to the conflict, they aren't removed or edited according to the context. In fact this section isn't even in chronological order as it is necessarily the case with a timeline. There are many sub sections about specific operations and geographic areas and the text travel back and forward in time at a dizzying pace. It is more like a dump of news articles than an informative text.
I am not a frequent Wikipedia writer either and I don't know what would I be allowed to do if I decided to summarize this text, therefore I ask the community what could and should be done here, because at least to me the issue is very visible.I personally think that ongoing/recent conflicts' articles have no reason to be so drastically different from historical ones and this is where the problem is.138.62.255.10 (talk) 09:51, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- Every so often I end up being the one summarising, doing some splits and shortening the sections. One of the unique issues with the coverage on the Myanmar civil war is that it's harder to find analysis on how to group all the news events. I think early on we grouped it by locaiton within a broader timeframe that had overarching takeaways. However, analyses have certainly shifted to a more constantly updated regional focus.
- I know analyses have not been properly incorporated into the article yet but it's certainly harder to follow now that the most recent "timeframe" has the most events and the longest timeframe. I'm personally a bit busy for a few weeks but I'd be happy to try to find those analyses and reorganise the sections- especially post 1027. For now I guess I also want to see what others think. I know a few months ago we dicussed if it would be worth spliting the entire article into a Myanmar civil war (2021-present) and a Myanmar civil war (2023-present) or if that would be misleading to the average viewer who probably isn't aware that there is a war at all. EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 05:06, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
- I strongly disagree with this; the whole point of Wikipedia is to provide readers with an archive of information with everything they’d want to know about a topic. Removing information just to make the article shorter would not provide any meaningful benefits, especially when there’s a timeline in chronological order that organizes the content already; if you want to look for one thing and not the other, just click on the hyperlink on the side and read what you want to know. It’s not very hard. LordOfWalruses (talk) 05:21, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
- I mean we should probably WP:SPLIT the timeline. If you look at, for example, the Anglo-Burmese Wars page, we definitely don't need as much detail as we have here if the information is adequate in separate Operation 1111, Operation 1027 etc pages. The issue is more the other theatres like Chin and Kachin which have a lot of info and news but no narrative. EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 12:48, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
- Yeah that sounds like a good idea. LordOfWalruses (talk) 03:55, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
- If I may chip in, Well, each section in the timeline could have a {main|blabla} or similar and then the stuff removed from the main article is added on those. And I know that similar to proposed above, but that the sections/headers would have clear links somewhere else for further information. I sometimes find people add something OR don't add something say for Op1111 on the main page but don't add it on the satellite article. Ending up with essentially only me adding content to one article and someone else here and them being written separately. Imo the relevant section and daughter article should be written more cries-cross. Where main article essentially has an up-to-date 'summary' with clear link, so the reader if interested can get to the other article and read more. I actually did this here recently when updating the sections. I agree that the main article doesn't need to be overly detailed.
- I think this is similar to what EmeraldRange is talking about. and in that case I agree. :)
- My two cents. Kennet Mattfolk (talk) 14:20, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
- I like what you did by linking to the sections in the other articles. I think I'm going to take a crack at editing this out today- generally thinking to split the whole "New conflict landscape" section into three sections and trying my best to clean up the specific articles. EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 15:10, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
- Yeah that sounds like a good idea. LordOfWalruses (talk) 03:55, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
- I mean we should probably WP:SPLIT the timeline. If you look at, for example, the Anglo-Burmese Wars page, we definitely don't need as much detail as we have here if the information is adequate in separate Operation 1111, Operation 1027 etc pages. The issue is more the other theatres like Chin and Kachin which have a lot of info and news but no narrative. EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 12:48, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
- Mostly did the major trims and splits for the post Laukkai section and there's definitely more that can be done but I wanted to see what other editors thought before I proceeded further (not that I'm likely to soon anyways due to time constraints). I think we definitely need a Karenni/South Shan theater and a Karen State theater and maybe even a Kachin theater article so that there's a more cohesive narrative somewhere since I have split everything up a lot more than before. EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 23:53, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
- As long as information isn't deleted from Wikipedia and still found somewhere with linking to find more, I'm ok with it. Only problem I could see if there's nowhere to put the information, there's no article for said subject. Kennet Mattfolk (talk) 09:52, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
November Map Edits
[edit]Nitpicks, Suggestions, and Maps:
- Is the UWSA/Thai dispute of anything to note on the map? UWSA controls Thai territory https://www.irrawaddy.com/news/burma/tensions-high-on-myanmar-border-as-thai-troops-demand-uwsa-withdrawal.html
- I've found no evidence that PDF control Kalay-Kalewa Road, Mawlaik-Kalewa Road, or Kalewa-Mingin Road
- PDF do not control Male (North of Thabeikkyin)
Indisputable Edits:
- PDF attack Kyauk Gyi https://www.rfa.org/burmese/news/joint-defense-forces-attack-remain-military-thabeikkyin-11142024051118.html
- PDF captured Htee Ree (PNA active near Htee Ree) https://www.irrawaddy.com/news/war-against-the-junta/anti-regime-groups-seize-myanmar-junta-positions-in-southern-shan-state.html
- PDF capture villages in Homalin https://www.bnionline.net/en/news/pdf-captures-five-villages-homalin-township-sagaing-region
- KIA capture Kanpaikti; NDA-K holds no territory (to my knowledge) https://www.rfa.org/burmese/news/kanpaikti-kia-occupied-11202024101520.html
- KNLA capture Kuseik along Hpapun road https://www.bnionline.net/en/news/knu-seizes-base-held-myanmar-army-70-years
- AA capture Northern Ann; possibly all of Ann (except Western Command) https://burmese.narinjara.com/news/detail/674f4040c4eed52a16738b62
- AA capture Taungup; 5th Battalion base south of town holds out https://www.bnionline.net/en/news/taungup-battle-centres-no-5-military-operations-command
- AA capture Chigon/Sutthwar https://www.bnionline.net/en/news/aa-attack-pushes-regime-troops-withdraw-gwa-twsp-village
- AA presumably encircle junta forces at Kanthayar Beach; capture Nyaungchaung, Zee Khon, Tin Taw, Laung Kyoe; attacking Ah Lel Chaung https://burmese.narinjara.com/news/detail/674d9a8a21a15f5d097dadf9 https://burmese.narinjara.com/news/detail/674bd9a521a15f5d09643ae4 https://burmese.narinjara.com/news/detail/674c368721a15f5d096a5d34 (map of Gwa here)
- CB attack Mindat https://mmpeacemonitor.org/331937/fierce-fighting-ongoing-after-joint-chin-brotherhood-alliances-offensive-on-junta-camps-in-mindat/
- NMSP-AD in Kyeik Shwe https://www.bnionline.net/en/news/mudon-plywood-factory-managers-arrested-nmsp-ad
- SSPP/RCSS clash over Pangpwe https://www.bnionline.net/en/news/rcss-accused-attacking-two-ssasspp-bases
- PNA https://www.bnionline.net/en/news/military-junta-and-pno-forces-allegedly-loot-and-burn-villages-battle-zones-say-locals
- PNA controls areas around Inle Lake https://www.irrawaddy.com/news/burma/fighting-breaks-out-near-inle-lake-in-southern-shan-state.html
- Junta controls Shan Ywar Thit https://eng.mizzima.com/2024/10/25/15474
- Junta regains Western Madaya https://www.irrawaddy.com/news/war-against-the-junta/myanmar-junta-seize-western-madaya-from-resistance-groups.html
- Junta recaptures Pekon; presumably recaptures Pinlaung-Pekon road due to the fact that PNA forces are in the town https://www.irrawaddy.com/news/war-against-the-junta/myanmar-regime-continues-karenni-offensive-despite-high-casualties.html
Disputable Edits:
- No more fighting in Waingmaw https://mmpeacemonitor.org/en/332278/junta-airstrikes-target-villages-in-waingmaw-without-active-fighting/
- PNA active near Aungban https://myanmar-now.org/en/news/pa-o-fighters-in-shan-help-junta-capture-base-from-resistance-forces/
IdioticAnarchist (talk) 16:39, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- The Pekhon situation you listed as undisputed is 'disputed', see Operation_1111#Fighting_along_the_Karenni-Shan_Border_area. Have four sources, listed in linked section, saying two to three different things. I resolved this by adding all povs to the article stating who said what with refs. :) Kennet Mattfolk (talk) 21:38, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- Updated with the following deviations/notes
- Nitpicks:
- UWSA/Thai issue is because border is not demarcated/UWSA is right on border on the other side- nothing we can show on the map
- agreed on Kalewa
- Male is not shown to be under PDF control
- Indisputables:
- Kyaukkyi, Thabeikkyin is already next to the frontline; modified frontline slight to match the Google War Maps's inclusion of bombing KIA troops in Twinge village
- Ann article in Burmese talks about the battle to take the RMCHQ starting- no confirmed news yet AFAIK about it falling; Ann area updated based on other details in article
- Zee Khon is the same as Chigon; also using Narinjara article on battle and advance stalling at Ywar Thit Gone to update Gwa advance to the Ah Lel Chaung (Ah lel stream)
- "Kyaik Shwe" added- actually in Kyaik Ywe probably a typo in Burmese that got translated.
- Paingpwe is at 21.9924'N 97.4241'E; reads as a raid rather than significant RCSS presence- area is already SSPP coded.
- "PNO" added some territory to the PNA on the township border but could not locate the "main village" of Banmauk in the GAD pcodes or maps.
- "areas around Inle Lake" is Thantaung. Given the joint nature of many operations, going to keep it as Junta control; see below.
- Disputable:
- Waingmaw not contested
- PNA or "PYO" activity there and in all the other ones in Kalaw Township or just over the border into Nyaungshwe Township should be treated like Pyusawhti militias or the way we treat KIA/PDF joint north-Sagaing attacks
- Pekon not secured by junta as per above from Kenneth
- Other fixes by me:
- Hopang -> Hopong in southern shan
- Nyaungshwe moved north since it was far too south
- Is there another svg that I can take from on wikimedia that has the lakes of Myanmar? It's probably relevant to put Moebye and Inle on there.
- EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 22:30, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
Map mistake
[edit]The source given for Khaunglaungphu's capture on the map doesn't say that the town itself has been captured, just that the "Lahu Se" militia camp within the township has been captured. Khaunglaungphu has not been captured. IdioticAnarchist (talk) 02:20, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
- Oh right, I corrected that. Borysk5 (talk) 20:30, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
Does Japan support Tatmadaw?
[edit]Does Japan support the Tatmadaw? 93.70.114.163 (talk) 10:52, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
- Do you have any sources that say they do? If not, then probably no. LordOfWalruses (talk) 04:59, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
Mindat
[edit]Hey guys I think Mindat has been captured 2400:AC40:627:7D10:6462:AF69:A98D:89C0 (talk) 12:31, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- Typically we wait until the end of the month to add things to the map IdioticAnarchist (talk) 17:07, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- But we can add it to the timeline right? 2400:AC40:627:8899:4958:F97F:677A:D307 (talk) 02:11, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
- Absolutely IdioticAnarchist (talk) 05:20, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
- But we can add it to the timeline right? 2400:AC40:627:8899:4958:F97F:677A:D307 (talk) 02:11, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
Map Edits (December)
[edit]Nitpicks, Suggestions, and Maps:
- Should the Rohingya Insurgency be shown on the map? Perhaps a dashed line around Buthidaung and Maungdaw Township's saying something like "Rohingya presence"?
- Should Mon groups be split in 2? Considering that Mon rebels are establishing a single Mon army, they should probably be shown separately to the neutral MNLA (or, there should at least be something to distinguish them).
- Also why are Wa and Mon groups labeled using their political organisations? Shouldn't it use the military wing like all the other groups? Like, the TNLA isn't labeled as the PSLF, so why is the MNLA labeled as the NMSP? Also, I think I've mentioned this before, but why are some names abbreviated and some aren't?
- CBA control parts of Tedim, so it should be shown as "stable contested" https://www.bnionline.net/en/news/junta-and-chin-resistance-forces-share-control-over-tedim-town
- Also, considering the DKBA control Payathonzu's government and law enforcement (I think? "Currently, DKBA forces are conducting all administrative activities in Payathonzu Town on the Thai- Myanmar border"), it should probably also be shown as stable contested.
- From what little I can find, the KIA do not control the Tanai-Nanyun road, but do control that large area northeast of Tanai. (If this helps, then great!)
- From what little I can find, the KIA's Namphatkar pocket only control Namphatkar, areas of Kutkai, and Dankai. The MNDAA likely control Tamonye. https://www.irrawaddy.com/news/burma/kia-seizes-myanmar-military-camp-in-tarmoenye-amid-heavy-junta-losses.html
- What is that large junta pocket east of Kalewa? From what I can tell, it's just rural forests which are likely controlled by PDF's. The only junta presence there I can find is at Sinaingma and Aung Chan Thar https://myanmar-now.org/en/news/clashes-near-kalewa-leave-at-least-10-resistance-fighters-dead/
- Male has not been captured by PDF, junta Thebekkyin pocket not completely encircled
- RCSS do not seem to control that territory south of the Salween, as there are several junta bases in the area. Also RCSS-controlled Kong Moong Merng and Loi Kawan is not shown on map https://www.burmalibrary.org/sites/burmalibrary.org/files/obl/5-23-2019-SSRC-SHRF-Press-release-Eng-report.pdf
- Amazing source on the Rakhine offensive; frontline near Sittwe should be moved closer, and frontline near Kyaukphyu is different https://geospatialdigest.substack.com/p/november-update-on-arakan-state
- This seems to be a literal GOLDMINE of Op. 1027 info https://www.freeburmarangers.org/2024/02/14/operation-1027-gives-tangible-hope-for-change-in-northern-burma/
Indisputable Edits:
- PDF controls Saw-Kyaukthu road (Also I think this might imply that the junta controls Laungshai?) https://www.dvb.no/post/683502
- DPLA attacks Kyaukku https://www.irrawaddy.com/news/burma/myanmar-junta-forces-suffer-heavy-casualties-in-shan-state-fighting.html
- DSNDA between Ye Hla and Min Palung https://bur.mizzima.com/2024/12/23/42254
- KIA attacks Bhamo https://www.bnionline.net/en/news/residents-flee-ongoing-fighting-bhamo-town-kachin-state
- The battle for Waingmaw restarted right after I reported that it ended! https://bur.mizzima.com/2024/12/05/40705
- KIA capture La He Si Bum in Khaunglaungphu https://www.irrawaddy.com/news/war-against-the-junta/ignoring-chinese-pressure-kia-seizes-myanmar-junta-allied-militia-outpost-in-kachin.html
- KNU captures Taung Thone Lone https://myanmar-now.org/en/news/knla-and-allies-destroy-junta-army-base-in-karen-state/
- KNU captures "Three Mountain" and "Sin Sue" camps on Hpapun road https://bur.mizzima.com/2024/12/05/40725
- KNU captures Sin Swe (30 miles from Karmaung) and attacks Kataingyi https://bur.mizzima.com/2024/12/18/41848
- KNU recaptures former Manerplaw https://www.rfa.org/burmese/news/knla-seized-militarycamp-in-hpaan-12172024080436.html
- AA captures Maungdaw https://www.irrawaddy.com/news/war-against-the-junta/aa-says-notorious-myanmar-junta-general-captured-in-maungdaw.html
- AA captures Taungkot https://burmese.narinjara.com/news/detail/675dc9a2f40a39362313b170
- AA captures Ann! https://www.irrawaddy.com/news/war-against-the-junta/myanmar-junta-loses-second-command-hq-as-aa-triumphs-in-rakhine.html
- AA captures Gwa https://www.rfa.org/burmese/news/military-council-camp-seized-gwa-12202024013154.html https://burmese.narinjara.com/news/detail/67702e43773264304199b813
- AA cuts of Gwa-Nga Thaing Chaung road https://burmese.narinjara.com/news/detail/6762d466319f78a5b36aea96
- AA captures Kyauk Chun (I.e all of Gwa Township) https://burmese.narinjara.com/news/detail/67722bdc9cd7d92a506eaa00
- KNDF captures Aung Tha Pyay Goung https://www.rfa.org/burmese/news/kndf-junta-camp-occupied-12212024121744.html
- Mon groups capture Mok Kakin https://www.rfa.org/burmese/news/junta-camp-occupied-mon-tanintharyi-12202024112403.html
- Mon groups https://www.bnionline.net/en/news/two-nmsp-soldiers-injured-explosion-caused-military-junta-shelling
- CBA captures Mindat and Kanpetlet https://www.irrawaddy.com/news/war-against-the-junta/southern-chin-state-liberated-from-myanmar-junta.html
- KNA control Kyaing https://www.dvb.no/post/683913
Disputable Edits:
- KTLA/junta at Mautaung https://bur.mizzima.com/2024/12/05/40738 https://bur.mizzima.com/2024/12/25/42487
- KTLA controls Htee Khee road https://mmpeacemonitor.org/332941/%e1%80%99%e1%80%b1%e1%80%90%e1%80%b9%e1%80%90%e1%80%ac-%e1%80%91%e1%80%ae%e1%80%b8%e1%80%81%e1%80%ae%e1%80%b8-%e1%80%94%e1%80%9a%e1%80%ba%e1%80%85%e1%80%95%e1%80%ba%e1%80%9c%e1%80%99%e1%80%ba/
IdioticAnarchist (talk) 01:35, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- Some specific responses to some of the suggestions
- I don't know if there's enough info on Rohingya insurgents- especially after recent capture of the entire border. We have kind of the same issues generally on presenting the control as distinct lines in other places.
- Mon groups should be split at this point. But it's hard to tell what's controlled by MNLA and what's controlled by the new group. Do you have any further information? If not I can probably go through the prior months and disambiguate them a bit.
- Naming inconsistencies are kinda leftovers from earlier
- Wa is labelled as Wa because, they have de facto and de jure control over Wa State- before they started taking more land. I think they should still be labelled as such because most of their expansion has been "diplomatically" and remain a neutral "foreign country" to both sides on the ground.
- MNLA was just cuz it was NMSPAMD when they first split- I would rename that to the MLA (that new group) once we can figure out what is controlled by them and what is still MNLA.
- DKBA is now KNA right? Right? I'm never sure with Karen groups- especially DKBA. The more you look at DKBA the more DKBAs show up. I'm inclined to either label them as joint with KNA or treat them like the Pyusawhti militias, but Karen.
- RCSS does control those junta base areas in that source. I believe the mapping was based on IDP camps and RCSS functioning as quasi-junta allies in the area? That's what I remember at least from prior mapping months of UWSA-RCSS on the border.
- Generally agree on the rest, I will go through them and apply them. Thanks as always and great job on collating all the information every month! EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 01:54, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
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