Talk:Abdi Sinimo

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"Father of Somali music"

The vast majority of published reliable sources describe Qarshe as the father of Somali music: [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], [10] ...etc etc, as such undue. --Kzl55 (talk) 10:18, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

The International Journal of Somali Studies, Bildhaan associated with the Macalester College published in Vol. 2 page 80, an interview where Abdullahi Qarshe himself acknowledged that the title of "Father of Somali Music" was conferred upon Abdi Sinimo in a 1994 interview at the Residence of Obliqe Carton in Djibouti. The interview question relating to the topic went as follows:

Mohamed Rashid Sheikh Hassan (Interviewer): "The Somali people and others regard you as the “Father of Somali Music.” Is this how you see yourself?"

Abdullahi Qarshe: "No. There was always music: for weddings, lullabies, watering animals, working, dancing (shurbo), night dancing (sacab habeenkii la tumo), exorcism (saar). All these existed, so one can only say that there were no musical instruments to accompany them. One cannot say, therefore, that I am the “Father of Somali Music.” Even modern music was in the air at the time of Abdi Sinimo, who is widely regarded as the genius who formulated and organized it into the belwo and thus took well deserved credit and honor for it. Perhaps, I am the first Somali to set Somali songs to the music of the lute (kaman)."

Mohamed Rashid Sheikh Hassan: "Did you ever meet Abdi Sinimo?"

Abdullahi Qarshe: "I met him in Djibouti in 1956, when we performed our first play."

Mohamed Rashid Sheikh Hassan: "What did he look like?"

Abdullahi Qarshe: "We sat together and conversed about how the belwo emerged. He was neither tall nor short, neither fat nor thin, but on the slim side. He was brownish in tone and you could tell he was an artist by the way he walked. He used to go to the barber and have his hair cut, all except a bit on the crown of his head. I asked him how the belwo came to him. He said that once, whilst he was driving his truck, he came into a desert area. The truck ran into some difficulty and he had no spare parts. Other trucks approached to help, but they had no spare parts either. This situation, in which people are eager to help you but are unable to, gave rise to the belwo. Abdi Sinimo told me that in the solitude there was something of inspiration, and he just started to sing the following lines: “Balwooy, Hooy belwooy/Waxaa I baleeyay baabuur/Waxaa I baleeyay Borama.” (Abdi Sinimo was going in the direction of Borama and came from Djibouti. He envisaged his friends in Borama having a nice time.) As we know now, these few lines gave rise to the modern Somali heello."

Source: [11]

MustafaO (talk) 23:39, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

Wikipedia content is primarily concerned with what published reliable sources state on a given subject. The source you are quoting does not say anything close to your claim of Abdullahi Qarshe "himself acknowledged that the title of "Father of Somali Music" was conferred upon Abdi Sinimo". Its just an interview in which he responded politely to the compliment. In fact the source you are quoting clearly states that "The Somali people and others regard you [as in Abdullahi Qarshe NOT Sinimo] as the “Father of Somali Music”, further supporting what all the other published sources stated. Published reliable sources on this subject are clear about Qarshe being known as father of Somali music. I have included plenty of citations from reliable sources [12], [13], [14], [15], [16], [17], [18], [19], [20], [21] ...etc etc. You have been a reasonable editor in the past, please refrain from edit warring, as this would risk your account getting blocked. --Kzl55 (talk) 00:11, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

The sourced reference that I quoted clearly stated that he was the pioneer of the Balwo genre, an admission made by Qarshe himself. Your removal of that sourced edit was UNWARRANTED and amounts to vandalism and since you are NOT a WIkipedia administrator but an ordinary editor (who was previously banned for edit warring), your history in edit warring is very known and unjustifiable. There are many sources that also claim Abdi Sinimo to be the 'Father of Somali Music', such as [Horn of Africa. Horn of Africa Journal. 1997. p. 160. Thus crowning him as the uncontested father of the modern Somali song by penning the Balwo]. There are many other sources that make the same claim. What is extremely concerning is the fact that you removed the sourced edit where Qarshe made the claim that he did NOT pioneer the Balwo, yet you inserted a statement that he did. This sort of vandalism goes against the regulations set out by Wikipedia in relation to published content. MustafaO (talk) 05:49, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

What you are doing is unacceptable, you continue to edit war whilst being unresponsive on the talk page. This matter is very simple and does not require much edit warring. The vast majority of WP:RS declare that Qarshe was "father of Somali music", you can not dispute this, I have listed 10 academic sources ([22], [23], [24], [25], [26], [27], [28], [29], [30], [31] ...etc etc), you have just one (and a primary source interview which clearly states that "The Somali people and others regard you [as in Abdullahi Qarshe NOT Sinimo] as the “Father of Somali Music”). As far as WP is concerned that settles it as Wikipedia articles should show what majority of reliable sources state on a given subject. You will be reported if you continue to edit war. Also, I was never blocked on Wikipedia, please be careful with such claims. --Kzl55 (talk) 12:33, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

You were previously banned once for edit warring on the Haplogroup_T-M184 pagea and other pages. The Wikipedia administrators such as Yamaguchi先生 has also seen your edit warring on other pages. Having said that, Qarshe himself ACKNOWLEDGES that he was not a pioneer of the Balwo in any way, shape or form and attributed it completely to Abdi Sinimo which cancels out an erroneous reference especially when the person questioned, Qarshe, himself denies he had any role, pioneer or otherwise in the Balwo genre. He says: Even modern music was in the air at the time of Abdi Sinimo, who is widely regarded as the genius who formulated and organized it into the belwo and thus took well deserved credit and honor for it. Perhaps, I am the first Somali to set Somali songs to the music of the lute (kaman)." Source: [32]

Qarshe mentions he can take credit for being the first to set Somali music to the lute, but he completely denies having any association with the Balwo genre. Please desist from the unwarranted abuse of this page. MustafaO (talk) 13:54, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

I dont know why you are getting at by lying and claiming I was blocked on Wikipedia, I am telling you I was not. This is your last warning, please refrain from personal attacks, if you do not stop you will be reported.

What Qarshe stated in a primary source interview as a polite response to a compliment, can not outweigh what the majority of reputable sources state, i.e. Qarshe was the artist known as father of Somali music. In fact the same interview you are citing confirms that fact, stating that "The Somali people and others regard you [as in Abdullahi Qarshe NOT Sinimo] as the “Father of Somali Music”". What you are doing is borderline original research, it is undue. Unless you are disputing the fact that the vast majority of published reputable sources state Qarshe is father of Somali music (which you did not up until this point), I suggest you perform a self-revert. --Kzl55 (talk) 14:07, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

I have no problem whether or not Qarshe is considered the 'Father of Somali Music'. I haven't once edited or removed any citation that claims him to be such. However, that doesn't warrant the removal of anyone else who has been given a similar title. That's the issue. Qarshe's response was not a polite response to a compliment, but rather a factual based answer where he acknowledges that he did NOT introduce the Somali music tradition. He was the pioneer of putting the earlier songs to flute. Nobody can deny Qarshe's contribution to Somali music, however to claim that he was a pioneer of the Balwo and Heelo genres is INCORRECT.

There are OVER 10 different sources that dispute the erroneous citation that suggests that Qarshe was a pioneer of this genre. The sources that show that this genre was created and pioneered only by Sinimo are too many, here are a few: [33], [34], [35], [36], [37], [38], [39], [40], [41] and [42]. MustafaO (talk) 23:12, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Firstly, glad you dropped your baseless lie that I was blocked, that was clearly unwarranted and off-topic anyway.

The issue at hand is that the vast majority of sources did not give the title, or a similar title, to Sinimo. You are only presenting a single source that did, as such including it would be WP:UNDUE given that the vast majority of reputable published sources give the title to Qarshe, please read the guidelines on undue statements. You've been edit warring to include that statement despite your source not even matching it. With regards to Qarshe's response, you are inserting your own interpretations which is against WP guidelines in relation to primary sources. When I say its a polite response, that too is my own interpretation, it is why secondary sources are preferred to primary sources on Wikipedia. Besides, that very interview clearly stated that Somalis and other consider Qarshe to be father of Somali music, in line with what other reputable sources state on the subject. With regards to Balwo links, please use appropriate talk page for that discussion, it does not relate to the "father of Somali music" topic, and just to be clear, these sources do not state that Qarshe was not a pioneer, reread them and please stop adding your own interpretation. --Kzl55 (talk) 10:26, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

I did not drop any accusation. You are a very well known editor who has numerous times violated the ethics of Wikipedia and you have previosly been blocked in the past for edit warring. That's beside the point. The administrators themselves can do a background check on your account to verify whther or not I am 'lying'. The information that I provided regarding Qarshe is not my own interpretation, its from the published source that could be read by anyone. By virtue of there being a published source that mentions this title for Sinimo, it is unwarranted for you to remove them. Its interesting how using a single source becomes problematic now, since you've only been using one single source to claim that Qarshe was a pioneer of the Balwo genre. I've read the works that I've added and it talks about the history of the modern Somali music experience, it mentions contributions, inceptions and development of Somali music since its beginning. In the sections of balwo and heelo, you will not find a single reference that Qarshe pioneered these genres, only Abdi Sinimo. Adding a flute to lyrical songs doesn't and cannot be understood to mean 'pioneering'. Please desist from edit warring. MustafaO (talk) 11:52, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

You keep violating WP:CIVILITY with no evidence, I repeatedly told you that I've never been blocked, if you continue being uncivil you risk your own account getting blocked, for the last time, I suggest you stop.

For the last time, again, please stay on topic, we are discussing the title here, nothing else. The title "father of Somali music" is accepted by the vast majority of sources to belong to Qarshe, you're not disputing this fact, and yet you've been edit warring to describe Sinimo as such, armed with a single source that does not even match your statement. It is undue, plain and simple. Stop trying to evade this simple fact. As such you need to perform a self-revert. Unless you can provide citations giving Sinimo the title equal in number to that of Qarshe. --Kzl55 (talk) 12:00, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

I'll allow the Wikipedia administrators to do a background check on you themselves. I'll make a note of this. I haven't done anything that contravenes Wikipedia rules, so for you, as an editor, to threaten someone with being 'blocked' is ludicrous. Having said that, I've already edited the title of Sinimo and aligned the title to match the description given to him in the published work. There is no contradiction in this regard. Abdullahi Qarshe is known as the 'The Father of Somali music', but that title doesn't need to be exclusive to him. I've already edited the title. So I dont understand why you are still edit warring on this issue. MustafaO (talk) 12:12, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

You cant "allow" anyone to do anything. And it is against WP guidelines to be uncivil like you've been, particularly since you can not substantiate your lie that I've been blocked. There was no reason to make that statement in the first place other than to be uncivil. I am not threatening you, I am simply telling you that being uncivil will eventually lead to your own account getting blocked.

Whether you've edited it or not, changing a few words does not change the fact that its WP:UNDUE (have you actually read the guidelines?), you have a single source, and it directly contradicts what the vast majority of sources state, inclusion would clearly be undue. You need to perform a self revert, since you are not disputing that the vast majority of sources explicitly state Qarshe is "father of Somali music". --Kzl55 (talk) 12:22, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

I've read the guidelines and there is no contradiction whatsoever. The titles reflect two completely different things. It is not an issue of 'changing a few words'. The titles reflect completely different realities. Abdi Sinimo established the lyrical genre so therefore he is the uncontested 'Father of the Modern Somali Song'. This is very different from Qarshe, who is described as the 'Father of Somali Music'. I don't see where there needs to be a removal of a published work as the titles imply two completely different histories in the tradition of Somali Music. MustafaO (talk) 12:44, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

Up until earlier today you were arguing that Sinimo was also "father of Somali music", this insistence on inclusion is bizarre. Changing a few words in the title does not change the fact that it is still undue per WP guidelines, which I doubt that you've read by the way, since it state: "If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small minority, it does not belong on Wikipedia, regardless of whether it is true or you can prove it, except perhaps in some ancillary article.", you've only presented a single source, it is undue and inclusion breaches neutrality of the article. I think the argument is clear, perform a self-revert and call it a day. --Kzl55 (talk) 12:57, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

The titles were never exclusive and are subjective depending on whose information is being relied upon, hence whether or not 'Father of Somali Music' applies or not. I've READ the Wikipedia guidelines and once again, the titles are not the same. They reflect two completely different realities. I don't see why you are still arguing on this matter and presenting the same contention over and over again. It makes no sense, the titles are different. MustafaO (talk) 13:11, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

If you've read the guidelines you would understand that Wikipedia is not concerned with minority views, articles should be based on what the majority of reputable sources state. Earlier in this page you stated that "There are many sources that also claim Abdi Sinimo to be the 'Father of Somali Music'", you've failed to prove that. Which is why inclusion is undue. --Kzl55 (talk) 13:15, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

This is not an issue of a minority view versus a majority view. The titles are completely different and are reflective of different realities hence why I edited the title to reflect the sourced content. Regarding claim that there "there are many sources that also claim Abdi Sinimo to be the 'Father of Somali Music'", I made that argument clearly for two reasons. Firstly, because Qarshe himself acknowledged (see:[43]), that he considered Abdi Sinimo to have been more deserving as he quoted him DIRECTLY when faced with the question regarding if he is the 'Father of Somali Music', the other source I used means there was more than one reference and it was also given numerous times and sourced. The title was edited to mean completely seperate meanings, yet you are still being overtly contentious. MustafaO (talk) 13:55, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

Of course it related to minority views, you claimed that there are many sources supporting your wording, you failed to cite more than a single source for your chosen title. That ends the argument, its a minority view according to published sources we have and WP guidelines. Claiming the titles are different is inaccurate, you are only moving to this title once you realised the first title you attempted to include via edit warring had no sources backing it. Even with this new one, you managed to provide a single source, it is a minority view and including it breaches WP:UNDUE. I am sure you understand this by now, your posts now consists of various ways of refusing to "get the point", this is disruptive behaviour and can lead to sanctions, just so you know. I advise you to perform a self-revert. --Kzl55 (talk) 14:21, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

I cited more than one source, the first source was (see:[44]), Qarshe considered Abdi Sinimo to have been more deserving as he quoted him DIRECTLY when faced with the question regarding if he is the 'Father of Somali Music'... This was the one of the sources that I used to make the earlier argument. The second was (see: [45]). According to you, yourself, this second source was an affront to Qarshe being dubbed 'the Father of Somali Music'. So I used more than one source... However, I aligned the wording to the speicific source to reflect the difference in meaning even though many would/could understand it to mean the same thing. This negates the majority versus minority referenced works which would undermine this source. The title is reflective of different musical legacies. This is something you are either unable or unwilling to come to terms with, unfortunately. MustafaO (talk) 14:36, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

Nope, you have cited a single source for "father of the modern Somali song" claim. The source relates to "father of Somali music, two different titles by your own admission, you are now clearly contradicting yourself. --Kzl55 (talk) 15:47, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

Clearly you are NOT reading my comments. Otherwise you would not be making such unsubstantiated allegations. I literally gave you more than one source in the previous comment addressed to yourself. This is becoming ridiculous. Once again, here:

1. The first source was (see:[46]), Qarshe considered Abdi Sinimo to have been more deserving as he quoted him DIRECTLY when faced with the question regarding if he is the 'Father of Somali Music'... This was the one of the sources that I used to make the earlier argument.

2. The second was (see: [47]). Where an argument to dub him with the title can easily be validated per the editing regulations by Wikipedia.

This is now becoming redundant. MustafaO (talk) 16:05, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

Nope, they are different, by your own admission: "'ve read the Wikipedia guidelines and there is no contradiction because the titles are completely different". You have provided a single source for the statement "father of Somali music" [48], and this source actually clearly states that Somali people considered Qarshe as Father of Somali Music "The Somali people and others regard you as the “Father of Somali Music”. You've also provided a single source for the other statement that you've now embraced "father of modern Somali song" [49]. This is in contrast to upwards of 10 published reputable sources stating Qarshe as father of Somali music [50], [51], [52], [53], [54], [55], [56], [57], [58], [59] ...etc etc.. No matter how you look at it, your inclusion is undue. --Kzl55 (talk) 16:17, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

This source which states that Abdi Sinimo is the 'Father of the Modern Somali Song' [60], doesn't contradict the sources that you've posted that claim Qarshe is the 'Father of Somali Music'. Have you read your own sources? There is CLEARLY no contradiction, seeing that the titles are completely different and not wording variations as they denote completely different realities. Having said that, Qarshe himself DIRECTLY referred this title and conferred it upon his predecessor, Abdi Sinimo here: [61].

The two titles are COMPLETELY different which doesn't amount to the inclusion being undue. You need to take this into consideration. MustafaO (talk) 16:27, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

This is neither here nor there. You can not include Sinimo simply because you have a single source supporting your inclusion, it would be WP:UNDUE to have both statements, one supported by upwards of 10 reputable published sources whilst the other is supported by only one. According to WP:UNDUE "If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small minority, it does not belong on Wikipedia, regardless of whether it is true or you can prove it, except perhaps in some ancillary article", this viewpoint you are pushing is held by a single source. I have said this before, but exceptional claims require exceptional sources per WP:EXCEPTIONAL, its that simple. And please stop quoting what Qarshe said, I have explained to you why primary sources are not favourable on Wikipedia, you can read about that in WP:PRIMARY, and you are ignoring that that source you are citing clearly states that the Somali people actually consider Qarshe as father of Somali music, so again, majority views are presented. --Kzl55 (talk) 16:36, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

The differences in the titles reflect TWO completely different realities. So recycling the same argument over and over is now redundant. Here are examples that prove these titles are not variations in any way.

1. One source says: 'Thus crowning him as the uncontested father of the modern Somali song by penning the Balwo.' Horn of Africa Journal. 1997. p. 160. There is a correlation between penning and creating the genre and the title 'Father of the Modern Somali Song'. This is CLEAR from the source.

2. Another source states the reason as to why many consider Qarshe to be the 'Father of Somali Music' is when he said: 'Perhaps, I am the first Somali to set Somali songs to the music of the lute (kaman)' Source: Interview with the late Abdullahi Qarshe (1994) [62]. So the inclusion is NOT WP:UNDUE in any way.

So the majority views versus minority is redundant as you can see here, the titles were given to reflect two completely different realities.

This whole section of your argument: I have explained to you why primary sources are not favourable on Wikipedia, you can read about that in WP:PRIMARY, and you are ignoring that that source you are citing clearly states that the Somali people actually consider Qarshe as father of Somali music, so again, majority views are presented'Bold text' is arguing on the premise that there the titles are the same or a variant of the same original title, which it isn't. Refer to: (Horn of Africa Journal. 1997. p. 160 [63] and Interview with the late Abdullahi Qarshe (1994) [64] to see the reasons why the titles reflect different meanings as the sources leave very little room to argue otherwise. MustafaO (talk) 16:50, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

Please stop making such unnecessarily long posts, much of it is very repetitive. You still have nothing more than a single source per statement, statements which you are arguing are "completely different". Until you can provide more citations from reputable sources, inclusion will always be undue, this is because you have a single source supporting "father of Somali music" (and this source actually states the opposite of your claim, i.e. Somali people call Qarshe father of Somali music and not Sinimo), and you have one single source also supporting the other rendition: "father of modern Somali song". This is why its a minority view and undue, because you have a single source supporting each, whereas the Qarshe statements has upwards of 10 sources all confirming it. --Kzl55 (talk) 17:06, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

You are repeating the exact same argument in the last 10 posts that you made. Interesting that you keep making the argument that my contributions are repetitive despite the fact that I keep producing content which gives more credibility to the argument and case that I'm making. It cannot be a minority view, since the titles are NOT the same. Despite however much you wish to stick to the same old argument, the titles are different. All you literally need to do is read the REASONS as to why the titles are DIFFERENT (Refer to: (Horn of Africa Journal. 1997. p. 160 [65] and Interview with the late Abdullahi Qarshe (1994) [66]). MustafaO (talk) 17:20, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

Your contributions are repetitive. You have a single source supporting your statement that Sinimo is "father of modern Somali song", it is by virtue of having a single piece of evidence in support of it that your attempt to include that statement is undue. Its very simple. Add the fact that you are making an exceptional claim which, per WP guidelines, requires exceptional evidence, of which you've provided none, and this is a very straightforward matter. This will be my last post here until another editor weighs in. --Kzl55 (talk) 17:37, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

There are over 10 different sources (see: [67], [68], [69], [70], [71], [72], [73], [74], [75] and [76]) stating that Abdi Sinimo penned and pioneered the Balwo, which was the exact reason as to why the source you constantly remove makes that claim: 'Thus crowning him as the uncontested father of the modern Somali song by penning the Balwo.' Horn of Africa Journal. 1997. p. 160. Refer to: [77]. I await the other editors to comment, especially those who are independent from the issue at hand. The sources are all correlated. MustafaO (talk) 17:58, 7 September 2019 (UTC)