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Etymology of the name

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Plainly relevant. And cited.

I prefer this to the Bowdlerized version here. It better informs the readers. WP:BRD, not WP:Edit war. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 17:06, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Typically an etymology section would tell us how a place got its name. This is just a generic definition of the word "Ahaaha" which cites sources that don't even mention Ahaaha Rocks, it tells us that it could be a canoe or a breeze or a species of fish; which one is it? We would never include something this vague in an article about an English-language name. If kept, we should remove all mention of "Kepuhi" which is unrelated and should not even be included in a footnote. –dlthewave ☎ 18:43, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. I think it's very interesting but perhaps misleading. It takes mention of Hawaiian language for example, but doesn't appear to be related to the Rocks. —Panamitsu (talk) 19:25, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Wonder if these other meanings might help find the origin of the name:
  1. Herbert William Williams; Herbert William Williams; Polynesian Society (N.Z.) (1917). A Dictionary of the Maori Language. M. F. Marks, government printer. p. 3. Alarm, shyness, want of confidence
  2. Google Translate Maori haha
  3. A Maori-English lexikon (Colenso 1898) all things; everything besides not mentioned or alluded to.
  4. Davies, John (1851). A Tahitian and English dictionary. p. 8. the name of a fish remarkable for its rapidity in swimming; rapidity, swifness; a swift pursuer; to pursue, as a warrior his enemy; neat, smart, of genteel carriage; cadaverous, as a dead animal
  5. Andrews, Lorrin; Parker, Henry Hodges (1922). A Dictionary of the Hawaiian Language (in English and Hawaiian). Board. sitting squarely; uprightly and to pant; to breath hard on account of heat, as a hog or a dog
StrayBolt (talk) 01:17, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Unfortunately these aren't helpful either since they don't mention which definition applies to Ahaaha Rocks. –dlthewave ☎ 14:50, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • My initial concerns remain: The original sources for this section, as well as the ones added later, do not mention Ahaaha Rocks nor do they tell us which definition applies here, so we're left with a growing number of definitions which is likely to be confusing of misleading to the reader. 7&6=thirteen, could you please address this issue? –dlthewave ☎ 15:05, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yet another GUESS at the meaning of the name: "Cutting implements of hafted shark teeth, termed aha, ahaaha, koripi, maripi, mira, mikara, or ripi, are found in early Maori collections (especially those associated with Captain James Cook)."[1] StrayBolt (talk) 19:23, 22 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Another example: "(567) SHARK-TOOTH KNIFE (ahaaha; aha-mango—mira tua-tini). Carved and pierced hard wood handle with shark (tuatini) teeth bound in groove (one missing). Shell-inlaid eye. Length, 5½ins. (Ex collection of Colonel Wyatt.)"[2] Photo of 567 StrayBolt (talk) 23:56, 27 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • What is the oldest reference to the name? The oldest ref in the current article is for "Ahaaha Islets" in New Zealand Pilot by USPO in 1929.[3] A slightly older 1920 version had "Aha Aha Islets".[4] StrayBolt (talk) 19:51, 22 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
And the even older 1891 version had "Aha aha reef".[5] StrayBolt (talk) 20:09, 22 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
A schooner was lost in 1880 on "Aha Aha Rock", published 1881. [6][7] StrayBolt (talk) 20:15, 22 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"Aha-aha Is. awash at H.W.", Admiralty Chart No 1896. Entrances to Auckland Harbour nautical chart 55767, Published 1857 corrections 1863, 1872. .jpg[8] StrayBolt (talk) 20:50, 22 October 2023 (UTC) StrayBolt (talk) 22:23, 23 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Etymology section

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Relevant and useful to readers. I restored this. Better to have too much of the irrelevant rather than too little of the relevant. Let the readers decide. Or at least the other editors. Your deletion is dead. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 14:52, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Could you please explain how multiple definitions of the word Ahaaha are useful to helping the reader decide for themselves, if none tell us which definition is the right one? –dlthewave ☎ 15:11, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Res ipsa loquitur They provide cross cultural context. If you can't understand it, further explanation won't change anything. Can't open a locked book. See WP:Own. Cheers. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 15:15, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I do understand, but as Panamitsu mentioned above this isn't exactly related to the rocks and is potentially misleading. We may be implying a deeper meaning where there is none: What if the name simply reflects the fact that a certain fish is found there and all the rest is unrelated? If we truly wish to provide cultural context, we should do so by providing information about Ahhaha Rocks instead of simply copying dictionary definitions. –dlthewave ☎ 19:08, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Good idea. In your opinion. If you can find sources that do that, the article would be enhanced by that effort. Thanks for the suggestion.
But it's not a reason to delete what is there and sourced. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 19:17, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

RfC: Etymology section

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Should the article contain the following Etymology section?

"Ahaaha" Is a word used for the canoe that the dead Araha were transported to in the sky. It has been translated as "lifted up lofty" or "the sky."[1] Or it may mean breeze or a species of fish. In the Hawaiian language, “For example, “Ka makani ka¯ ‘aha‘aha la‘i o Niua’ alludes to ‘the peaceful ‘aha‘aha breeze of Niua that drives in the ‘aha‘aha fish.’ In this example, ‘aha‘aha refers to both the fish and breeze of the same name. Fishermen knew that when this breeze blew, it was the right time to launch their canoes in search of the ‘aha‘aha fish.”[2][3][A] In the Maori language "ahaaha" means "Alarm, shyness, want of confidence."[5] In the Tahitian language it means: "the name of a fish remarkable for its rapidity in swimming; rapidity, swiftness; a swift pursuer; to pursue, as a warrior his enemy; neat, smart, of genteel carriage; cadaverous, as a dead animal."[6] The Hawaiian Language defines it twice: "sitting squarely; uprightly" and "to pant; to breath hard on account of heat, as a hog or a dog."[7]

–dlthewave ☎ 19:28, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Other editors are invited and most welcome and their opinions will help to develop a consensus. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 19:45, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - An etymology section should tell the reader how the place got its name, but what we have here is a generic discussion of the word "Ahaaha" with sources that do not mention Ahaaha Rocks. If sources that discuss the topic directly cannot be found, it's better to exclude the section entirely because it's potentially misleading to cover multiple definitions that might not have anything to do with the place. –dlthewave ☎ 19:50, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support This in fact provides cultural context and a linguistic and geographical explanation for the name. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 19:53, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: no, of course not. The meaning of the word in Tahitian isn't remotely relevent. It's like informing the reader at Daniel O. Hoye that "hoye" means "become" in Bengali (at least according to Google Translate). Why???? Edward-Woodrow • talk 20:08, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. There shouldn't be an etymology section unless you have a source directly saying that these specific rocks are named for this word. Wikipedia is WP:NOTDICT (not a dictionary). Ifly6 (talk) 21:15, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per most of the above and additionally and most strongly for the fact that his material can't even provide an answer but is "it might mean a mythic canoe, or a fish, or a breeze, or wave sounds, or shyness, or cadaverous, or sitting, or breathing hard". This is rampant WP:OR speculation that is not encyclopedic in any way, it rambles on confusingly in seemingly random directions, and it ultimately has nothing demonstrable to do with the geo. feature Ahaaha Rocks.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  21:48, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. I posted the list in the Talk because I Wonder if these other meanings might help find the origin of the name. While they are all Polynesian languages, I think a Maori or Tahitian origin is more likely than a Hawaiian; but it could also be from an aha moment with the 4-foot high rocks suddenly surprising a sailor (just saw some text related to other nearby rocks which may not be as far fetch as I initially thought). We don't have the answer, yet. The islands have also been written as "Aha Aha" or "Aha-aha". StrayBolt (talk) 23:03, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - The current section is a mess and bringing in irrelevant languages is SYNTH and OR. If a source describes the etymology, that's fine, but that is not what we have here. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 08:26, 22 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, the current section acts more like a dictionary for "Ahaaha" than etymology. It is entirely misleading to include these (WP:OR) definitions when we have no source of where the name came from. —Panamitsu (talk) 08:35, 22 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Summoned by bot. I don't think the article needs to have a whole section. It might be more useful to whittle it down to one sentence and put the rest of the info in a footnote. Costatitanica (talk) 17:32, 22 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment It would seem that Ahaaha Rocks got its name from somewhere.
And the questions proponent changed the footnote and text from that which he deleted.

"Ahaaha" Is a word used for the canoe that the dead Araha were transported to in the sky. It has been translated as "lifted up lofty" or "the sky."[1] Or it may mean breeze or a species of fish. In the Hawaiian language, “For example, “Ka makani ka¯ ‘aha‘aha la‘i o Niua’ alludes to ‘the peaceful ‘aha‘aha breeze of Niua that drives in the ‘aha‘aha fish.’ In this example, ‘aha‘aha refers to both the fish and breeze of the same name. Fishermen knew that when this breeze blew, it was the right time to launch their canoes in search of the ‘aha‘aha fish.”[8][3][B] In the Maori language "ahaaha" means "Alarm, shyness, want of confidence."[5] In the Tahitian language it means: "the name of a fish remarkable for its rapidity in swimming; rapidity, swiftness; a swift pursuer; to pursue, as a warrior his enemy; neat, smart, of genteel carriage; cadaverous, as a dead animal."[6] The Hawaiian Language defines it twice, the most relevant being "sitting squarely; upright."[9]

I don't get paid for this stuff. I have no vested interest. If the weight of opinion is that you don't want any or part of it, so it is written, so it shall be done (with credit to Yul Brenner inThe Ten Commandments). 7&6=thirteen (☎) 00:56, 23 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your effort. I didn't mean for you to include the additional meanings to the article. The origin and meaning is still a mystery, with many suspects but no proof. Some origin stories have no simple answers and may have come about from many coincidental influences. StrayBolt (talk) 03:56, 23 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
And it will remain a mystery until reliable sources solve it. Trying to solving it ourselves is the very definition of WP:OR.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  00:23, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Notes

  1. ^ ‘Ahaaha’ mimics the sound of a wave crashing on the rocks. This onomatopoetic device illustrate how natives experienced and interacted with natural phenomena; and learned from and assimilated them into their culture and actions.[4]
  2. ^ Like the word "Kepuhi", the sound that a wave blowing through a particular blow hole—‘Ahaaha’ mimics the sound of a wave crashing on the rocks. These onomatopoetic devices illustrate how natives experienced and interacted with natural phenomena; and learned from and assimilated them into their culture and actions. Kepuhi is the blow hole in the Kealakelua area of Hawai’i Island.[4] After years of observation the community learned to listen to the way that waves crashing at Kepuhi sound. If you hear the water just rushing through the rocks it is okay to go out for deep sea fishing. Not so if you can only hear the sound of waves crashing into one another. ‘Ahaaha’ mimics the sound of a wave crashing on the rocks. These onomatopoetic devices illustrate how natives experienced and interacted with natural phenomena; and learned from and assimilated them into their culture and actions. [4]

References

  1. ^ a b Fox 1925, p. 237.
  2. ^ Kapä Oliveira, “Ke Alanui Kı¯ke’Eke’E O Maui: Na Wai Ho’I Ka ‘Ole O Ke Akamai, He Alanui I Ma’a I Ka Hele ‘Ia E O’U Mau Ma¯kua” (PhD diss., University of Hawaiʻi at Mānoa, 2006) Kapa Oliveira, “Ke Alanui Kı¯ke’Eke’E O Maui.” pp. 273-274
  3. ^ a b Louis 2011, p. 167.
  4. ^ a b c Louis 2011, pp. 169-171.
  5. ^ a b Williams, Williams & Polynesian Society (N.Z.) 1917, p. 3.
  6. ^ a b Davies 1851, p. 8.
  7. ^ Lorrin, Andrews; Parker, Henry Hodges (1922). A Dictionary of the Hawaiian Language. p. 28.
  8. ^ Kapä Oliveira, “Ke Alanui Kı¯ke’Eke’E O Maui: Na Wai Ho’I Ka ‘Ole O Ke Akamai, He Alanui I Ma’a I Ka Hele ‘Ia E O’U Mau Ma¯kua” (PhD diss., University of Hawaiʻi at Mānoa, 2006) Kapa Oliveira, “Ke Alanui Kı¯ke’Eke’E O Maui.” pp. 273-274
  9. ^ Andrews & Parker 1922, p. 8.
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