Talk:Anna Politkovskaya/Archive 5
 | This is an archive of past discussions about Anna Politkovskaya. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
| Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
Introduction
I have made a few changes in Introduction to explain why she is notable. First, she is known for her reports and books from Chechnya, where she continued to work despite the danger, mock execution, and so on. Second, her assassination is notable because Vladimir Putin was publicly accused of ordering her murder by Alexander Litvinenko, and because the murder took place at the Putin's birthday. It is also relevant that Litvinenko was killed himself soon after making this accusation, and that Russian government refused to extradite the suspect of his murder, even after the official indiction by UK justice. That is really notable.Biophys 21:22, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
- Is this really notable? I mean that
BerezovskyLitvinenko accused Putin of pretty much everything bad that happened in Russia. Why should his (out of all the people's) opinion be mentioned in the intro? Alæxis¿question? 06:15, 2 September 2007 (UTC)- There are two reasons why his accusation is much more notable than anything told by others. First, it is the scale of his accusation. He blames a head of state. If anyone as notable as Alexander Litvinenko accuses someone as notable as Vladimir Putin of the murder, this should be also included in Introduction. Second, it is the fate of Litvinenko himself. He publicly accuses Putin and ... he is killed very soon by the state-controlled radioactive polonium, which is widely regarded in the Western press as a plot from Moscow, especially after the Lugovoy indiction and refusal to extradite him. Biophys 13:12, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
- His death doesn't make him an expert in this issue. We may write that Russian authorities were/are suspected to be behind the murder (with all due references) but this is not the only point of view in Western or Russian press. See for example Yulia Latynina's opinion about the latest events (and she can hardly be described as a person who sympathises Putin and Co). Alæxis¿question? 14:13, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
- There are two reasons why his accusation is much more notable than anything told by others. First, it is the scale of his accusation. He blames a head of state. If anyone as notable as Alexander Litvinenko accuses someone as notable as Vladimir Putin of the murder, this should be also included in Introduction. Second, it is the fate of Litvinenko himself. He publicly accuses Putin and ... he is killed very soon by the state-controlled radioactive polonium, which is widely regarded in the Western press as a plot from Moscow, especially after the Lugovoy indiction and refusal to extradite him. Biophys 13:12, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
- This is an unrelated question, but if you are hinting that Litvinenko can not be trusted, could you please provide at least one his statement that was proven to be wrong? Even claim that Putin is pedophile has never been officially denied by Moscow. Same thing with Litvinenko claims that Putin provided protection for drug trafficers before he became a president.Biophys 13:12, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
- I think these questions are really related. Why do you think Litvinenko is notable (if we don't take into account the way he was murdered, that is)? I'd be really surprised if Russia officially denied or commented on any of his accusations. Try to imagine Mr. Blair, Mr. Brown or Queen Elisabeth denying accusations made in some obscure Russian book or tv-show. Alæxis¿question? 14:13, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
- This is an unrelated question, but if you are hinting that Litvinenko can not be trusted, could you please provide at least one his statement that was proven to be wrong? Even claim that Putin is pedophile has never been officially denied by Moscow. Same thing with Litvinenko claims that Putin provided protection for drug trafficers before he became a president.Biophys 13:12, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
- But Putin actually made a number of statements with regard to Litvinenko and Politkovskaya, precisely because their cases are so notable and have been widely described in numerous publications, which are not "obscure Russian book or tv-show". Yes, Litvinenko became so widely known only after his murder. Is he a good expert on FSB-related subjects? This is something debatable but does not affects his notability. We do not tell that his statement about Putin was proven.Biophys 15:28, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
- Well, he responded to their deaths, not to Litvinenko's accusations, didn't he?
- Litvinenko wasn't the only person who accused Russian authorities of the Politkovskaya's murder, right? Since this is the article about her there's no reason to mention Litvinenko in the intro. His accusations could be mentioned in the article itself. Alæxis¿question? 15:45, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
- But Putin actually made a number of statements with regard to Litvinenko and Politkovskaya, precisely because their cases are so notable and have been widely described in numerous publications, which are not "obscure Russian book or tv-show". Yes, Litvinenko became so widely known only after his murder. Is he a good expert on FSB-related subjects? This is something debatable but does not affects his notability. We do not tell that his statement about Putin was proven.Biophys 15:28, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
- Then we probably need some outside opinions on this issue. My point is that we are talking about two most high-profile political assassinations in the recent Russian history (based on the number of publications on this subject). It was claimed that both assassinations were ordered by Putin who had all means and motifs to do this (both victims wrote books where they criticized Putin personally). So, I think this should be noted somehow in the introduction.Biophys 19:19, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
Substantivation of my contribution if anyone cares
Staff journalists of Novaya Gazeta carried out a separate investigation of Politkovskaya murder, during which they closely cooperated with the General Prosecutor's Office.
- Sergey Sokolov: И, во-вторых – мы действительно проводим собственное расследование, мы действительно очень плотно сотрудничаем со следствием. And, the second point is that we really carry out our own investigation, we really very closely cooperate with the investigators. [1]
In August 30, 2007, journalists of Novaya Gazeta and son of Anna Ilya Politkovskiy have issued a statement about the ongoing investigation. In it they have claimed that not all involved people were arrested; as well as the Prosecutor's Office has yet to do lots of routine work to prove the guilt of those arrested, however Novaya Gazeta's own investigation shows that "arrested people were really involved in this crime in this or that degree".
- First, it’s not all involved who are arrested.
- Second, the guilt of those arrested is to be proved. Our own investigation done allows us to assume that the arrested people were really involved in this crime in this or that degree, but the prosecutors will have to do a lot of routine work: interrogations, confrontations and additional searches. It’s not today or this year that the trial will be held. [2]
The major issue addressed by journalists of Novaya Gazeta was the leak organized in the media, which has seriously complicated the work of investigators and could let other involved people escape. According to the journalists, "It seems that someone had a wish to make the currents list of suspected to be final and, besides, not to let solving other crimes that could possibly have been done by the arrested."
- Fourth, and the main, the leak organized in the media because someone had a wish to gain something and someone wanted to prevent investigation to establish all the circumstances of the contract murder of the journalist, this leak has complicated the whole situation. ... Now those people can guess the main direction of the investigation and have opportunities to escape.
Details of the investigation were kept in secret for almost ten months, that being controlled by the chief of official investigative group and journalists of Novaya Gazeta on their side. In August 27, Prosecutor General and special service officers held press-conferences. Although that wasn't a major breech in the secrecy of the case (besides one of the arrested, lieutenant colonel of FSB Pavel Ryaguzov, being named), it triggered a snowball of journalist publications and official appearances. Two things had worsened the deal — at first, as Sergey Sokolov has mentioned in September 2 interview, "each office had people who had obtained a bit of information — and they started to sell it to journalists", the second thing was seeming involvement of some people in these structures, due to "interpenetration of crime and law enforcement bodies", internal intrigues and fear that if investigators "unraveled this tangle, then the details of many celebrated unsolved cases would be disclosed".
- After disclosing the name of the arrested special service officer the information just burst out. Different versions of the list of arrested, photofit picture of the conjectured killer, video records made by video cameras at the entrance to the block of flats on Lesnaya Street and the photos of chief of investigative group Pyotr Garibyan appeared in abundance in the Internet. All possible has been done to prevent investigation and to provide the lawyers of the suspected with a good line of defense. For ten months before there had been no serious leak which was a very rare phenomena in our modern practice. The chief of official investigative group was controlling that from his side and we were controlling it from ours.
- Дальше произошло следующее – каждое ведомство должно было отметиться – это номер раз. Номер два – в каждом ведомстве есть люди, которые обладают кусочком информации – они начали ее продавать – это два. Е.АЛЬБАЦ: Продавать вы имеете в виду что? За деньги? С.СОКОЛОВ: Продавать журналистам.
- This is interpenetration of crime and law enforcement bodies that Anna wrote about many times. This is absence of control that makes warrant officers and majors sell their official powers. It must be stressed that this is the joint business established years ago and based on the grave crime and offence. If we unraveled this tangle, then the details of many celebrated unsolved cases would be disclosed. Judging from the latest events, this is what is being prevented from.
Considering the client of the murder of Politkovskaya, journalists of Novaya Gazeta have noted: "We do not exclude possible involvement by 'runaway oligarchs' and other characters. There are several versions of who was the client of Politkovskaya’s murder. We consider it that the client didn’t leave Russia. None of the versions is proved with evidence now and so all speculations must be stopped for the moment."
ellol 20:26, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
- Thank you for your contribution. Novaya Gazeta's position wasn't adequately represented in the article before that. Alæxis¿question? 05:09, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Russian people on all this
Many western people crys that Politkovskaia was right protector BUT She was an american citizen and not even Russian no one in Russia actually care who kill her because she was protect killer terrorists and bandits calling them poor patriots and insult our army If on west people likes when someone insult them and their army protect their enemys We dont like it —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.237.105.190 (talk) 08:23, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
- Please don't speak for all Russian people. Alæxis¿question? 08:49, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
- There was an opinion poll soon after her murder. [3] Over 50% haven't ever heard about Politkovskaya, just below 40% felt "Anger, indignation" after they heard about her death. ellol 12:56, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
- According to Sergei Kovalev, Putin's statement on insignificance of Politkovskaya's work confirms that he failed his duty. "And when the president says that these publications were taken absolutely indifferently by the country, he is admitting a cynical, illegal approach to his office duty. [He is admitting] that he is not a guarantor of constitutional norms but a political manipulator."[4],computer translation ilgiz 15:51, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
- Well, I'll just remind you, that it was October 10 press-conference, on which Putin has said: "This journalist was indeed a fierce critic of the current authorities in Russia. But, as the experts know, and as journalists should realise, I think, her impact on Russian political life was only very slight. She was well known in the media community, in human rights circles and in the West, but her influence on political life within Russia was very minimal." And so on: "The murder of someone like her, the brutal murder of a woman and mother, was in itself an act directed against our country and against the Russian authorities. This murder deals a far greater blow to the authorities in Russia, and in Chechnya, to which she devoted much of her recent professional work, than did any of her publications." [5]
- I don't actually see what's wrong here. In the same time, some Kovalev's activities were met as controversial in Russia. [6]. ellol 06:41, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Sorry for a lil offtopic... As it's now: "the murder could have been organized by certain figures who wished to undermine the Russian state". The dictionary states: "Undermine, sabotage: destroy property or hinder normal operations". Just thought it would be kinda in the spirit of the modern "wild capitalism"/Russian state to consider murder of Politkovskaya as destroying property that belongs to Russia... No point, just fun. ellol 15:38, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
That was actualy pretty stupid, what you sad. Cos you take ENGLISH word and tell us how cinycal all is. Realy not smart. Sory for no login. Oleg_Str.
There are Russian people who don't like both Putin and Politkovskaya.--141.19.228.15 (talk) 16:21, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
Successful good article nomination
I am glad to report that this article nomination for good article status has been promoted. This is how the article, as of October 21, 2007, compares against the six good article criteria:
- 1. Well written?: The article is written in clear and understandable language. However, per WP:LEAD please merge and condense the lead into no more than 4 paragraphs.
- 2. Factually accurate?: Cited well throughout the article to an impressive (61) good WP:RS sources. However, there are a couple portions where I could tell the cite was also pointing to further down in a subsection, but you should take care to actually place the same cite at the end of that paragraph if that is the case.
- 3. Broad in coverage?: Article is very thorough and covers a wide range of topics, both with respect to chronology and the controversial issues involved.
- 4. Neutral point of view?: Appears to be written in neutrally worded language.
- 5. Article stability? I see some edit conflicts and heated discussions, but I had to go back to the last archive to see that, from over four months ago. Looking at the article history in the past month, unfortunately it does look like there have been some issues of disagreement. However, there have not been significant revert wars or large changes during that same time period. Please do keep an eye on this, and keep in mind WP:CIVIL, and discuss issues on the talk page if/as they come up, and not in the edit histories.
- 6. Images?: 2 images, one from Wikimedia Commons, the other copyrighted but allowed use for any purpose provided credit is given.
If you feel that this review is in error, feel free to take it to Good article reassessment. Thank you to all of the editors who worked hard to bring it to this status, and congratulations. — Curt Wilhelm VonSavage 11:33, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
Personal Life
I don't suppose the page could be updated with more information on Anna's personal life. Her daughter, Vera, isn't even mentioned for example. :) --82.36.177.31 (talk) 19:54, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Image
Maybe someone can find another image of her for commons? The one that's up now makes her look a bit weird IMO. - PietervHuis (talk) 12:11, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
There's a v good, unstressed picture on the Novaya gazeta search page for articles by and about Politkovskaya http://politkovskaya.novayagazeta.ru/ (in black-backed column to the left). The paper would certainly agree to its use here - can someone technically competent insert it? Voronov (talk) 09:25, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
Killer identified
"Russian investigators have identified the killer of journalist Anna Politkovskaya, an aide to the prosecutor-general has said. The suspect was not named, but the official, Vyacheslav Smirnov, said "all measures are being taken to find and detain him. "[7] Krawndawg (talk) 01:38, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
He'll have an alabi in no time. - PietervHuis (talk) 22:37, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
peer review then wp:fac
I've listed this article for peer review because it's better than wp:wiaga standards but could use some comments and minor cleanup. someone (preferably sb who has worked on it) shld nominate it for wp:fac eventually Solenodon (talk) 04:13, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, I think this is a good idea.Biophys (talk) 04:49, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
- IMHO if the article is going for FAC we need significantly expand the material about her life. She is notable primarily as an accomplished author and just then a murder victim and the amount of material is in reverse. I would try to mention most of her investigative materials - they were important. The detention story is incomplete - it was officially investigated and was not confirmed. Whether the investigation was a whitewash or the detention story invented is not finally proven. Both versions should be presented. Alex Bakharev (talk) 12:54, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
- go ahead then, {{sofixit}}. Solenodon (talk) 13:09, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
- Alex, I think your first comment is exactly right. As about detention story, I am only familiar with her own writings and do not know much about the "other side". If you can expand something, that would be great.Biophys (talk) 13:12, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
- go ahead then, {{sofixit}}. Solenodon (talk) 13:09, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
- IMHO if the article is going for FAC we need significantly expand the material about her life. She is notable primarily as an accomplished author and just then a murder victim and the amount of material is in reverse. I would try to mention most of her investigative materials - they were important. The detention story is incomplete - it was officially investigated and was not confirmed. Whether the investigation was a whitewash or the detention story invented is not finally proven. Both versions should be presented. Alex Bakharev (talk) 12:54, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Cleanup completed but content expansion still needed
I've cleaned up/made consistent grammar, punctuation and style; however, the article still needs to be updated/completed. *momoricks* (talk) 06:40, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
Anna Politkovskaya
Hello. I've found a web page you may find interesting if you are updating Anna Politkovskaya's factfile. Enjoy. Andrzejestrować Zajaczajkowski Plecaxpiwórserafinowiczaświadzenie Poświadczyxwiadectwo-Bjornovich (talk) (contributions) 09:04, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
Removed most info regarding assassination
I removed all info regarding her assassination except the summary paragraph and photo. As others have said before, it is redundant to have that info in this article when there is another article that focuses specifically on the assassination. *momoricks* (talk) 18:51, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
- You're not the owner of the article, moron! Before making such decision, you should have asked here if it was appropriate! Idiot!
References
Hello. I thought you might find these links useful.--Andrzejestrować Zajaczajkowski Plecaxpiwórserafinowiczaświadzenie Poświadczyxwiadectwo-Bjornovich (talk) (contributions) 10:45, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
Who Killed Anna Politkovskaya?
[8] Grey Fox (talk) 14:14, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
Nationality/Ethnicity etc.
I believe we have been through this before but now we have a new round of edit warring. Politkovskaya was certainly a Russian author: her education, culture, professional work - everything belongs to Russia and Russian language. Her ethnicity was Ukrainian, I am not sure why it is matter, but as it important to some, I have put ethnicity parameter to her infobox. Her American citizenship (the second one) was a result of an accident - being born in the USA to diplomat parents. She never lived in the USA or worked for an American employer. Obviously, she used only Russian for her works. Thus, I see no reason to refer to her as a Russian-American journalist. She was plainly Russian journalist Alex Bakharev (talk) 18:49, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
- Being born in the USA to diplomat parents does not entitle one to US citizenship. What is is the origin of the dual citizenship? -- Petri Krohn (talk) 02:22, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
- Her parents worked for the United Nations [9]. From the American law they were not "ambassadors" and so the 14th Amendments stayed Alex Bakharev (talk) 06:40, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
- [10]
- The general rule does not apply to foreign sovereigns, accredited foreign diplomats or their families since under International law they are not subject to the law of the foreign country which has received them. Accordingly, children born in the United States to such individuals are not entitled to United States citizenship. However, these children may be eligible for lawful permanent residence. The INS position is that such a birth in the United States creates only eligibility for permanent resident status, and that such status is abandoned if the children return to their native country. Such children may apply for the creation of a record of lawful permanent residence.
- Foreign sovereigns are deemed to include only heads of a foreign state on an official visit to this country; they do not include those who are not visiting this country in their official capacity as heads of their government. Accredited diplomatic officials are only those with recognized diplomatic status and immunity, and include ambassadors, envoys extraordinary ministers planipotentiary, ministers resident, commissioners, charges d'affaires, counselors, agents, secretaries of embassies and legations, attachés, and other employees attached to the staff of the embassy or legation, as well as members of the Delegation of European Communities. The term also includes persons with comparable diplomatic status and immunity who are accredited to the United Nations or to the Organization of American States, and other individuals who are accorded comparable diplomatic status.
- I guess her parents (or at least one of them) did not hold formal diplomatic immunity (e.g. Alexander Yakovlev (diplomat) did not held diplomatic immunity) Alex Bakharev (talk) 06:46, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
Kadyrov opinion
I have moved Kadyrov opinion to Anna Politkovskaya assassination. I think it belongs there. Here we only give a brief summary of the events and Kadyrov's opinion would be an undue weight if set here Alex Bakharev (talk) 01:53, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
- I have added {{expand}} to the article, because it is quite underdeveloped article. I've also added {{unbalanced-section}} to that particular section as it only really includes information which implicates the Russian government of being behind the murder, but without any information from the accused themselves. I've also reduced the amount of text devoted to the CoE, as large rambling quotes are a blight on articles (in my opinion) and the gist of what he said can be summarised in our own words. --Russavia Dialogue 03:16, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
Lt. Col. Dmitry Pavlyuchenkov arrested
- http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,782084,00.html
- OneLeafKnowsAutumn (talk) 04:07, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
- Bidder, Benjamin. "Retired Police Officer Arrested in Russia." Der Spiegel. 24 August 2011. WhisperToMe (talk) 23:51, 5 November 2011 (UTC)