Talk:Avant-punk
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Merge proposal
[edit]There's no reason for this page to exist separately from art punk. One needs to be merged into the other, and art punk is the more commonly used term. Does anyone disagree? Aryder779 (talk) 20:17, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
- I disagree. Neither term is particularly well-defined, but avant-punk seems to be used for the more avant-garde/jazz influenced bands, rather than just punk bands that use visuals/poetry, etc.. The sources in this article (when the links worked) all use 'avant-punk' rather than 'art-punk'. Avant-punk at least seems to be better-defined than art-punk, which has been used to describe all manner of unrelated bands.--Michig (talk) 06:05, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
- Punk jazz (despite its odd name) might be a more appropriate place to merge to for this article.--Michig (talk) 12:10, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
- I don't really see what you mean. Only three bands are listed on this page: Sonic Youth, The Ex, and the Dog-Faced Hermans. The first two are already listed at art punk. It doesn't seem to me that anything in the "avant-punk" name necessarily indicates a jazz influence. I don't see this page as indicating much of a definition. I don't think art punk is a term for bands that "use visuals/poetry". Punk jazz doesn't strike me as an odd name, either.
- Sorry to be so contentious and terse. I'm just trying to work out consensus, and I can't figure out how you got from "avant" to "jazz". Aryder779 (talk) 21:20, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
- The art-punk article lacks references to demonstrate that the bands listed have been described as "art-punk". It's a hotch-potch of WP:OR and unconvincing connections. It looks like most of the references have been copied from the avant-punk article, because, with the exception of one source for The Ex, the others all use the term "avant-punk" (i.e. for Sonic Youth, The Ex, and Dog Faced Hermans). The art-punk article is incredibly weak on sources. What would you describe art-punk as? Crass's orrible agit-punk and Sonic Youth's experimental guitar noise (or The Ex's recent output) musically have nothing in common, really - it's hard to argue for art-punk having any sort of consistent meaning. The Ex and DFH (and to a certain extent SY) have ventured into experimental/avant-Jazz territory, which I believe is the source of the term. From the article about The Ex: "In recent years, the Ex have even bridged into avant-jazz territory".--Michig (talk) 06:09, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
- Both art punk and avant-punk are minimally defined terms that tend to turn up in reviews. I would say that "art punk" is a broad term used to distinguish a certain recognizable constellation of groups from hardcore punk, street punk, and punk metal. In some ways I find that distinction problematic -- in that, say, the Angelic Upstarts are still making "art" -- but let's leave that quibble aside. The point is that art punk is a very broad umbrella term that includes many other styles. Punk jazz is included under the art punk rubric, for example. Art punk basically refers to groups that come from a punk background, but incorporate elements of funk, jazz, experimental rock, dub, disco, or electro.
- Now, you seem to feel that the "avant" is borrowed from avant-garde jazz, and that therefore avant-punk should be considered to be synonymous with punk jazz, and therefore a subspecies of art punk. I don't personally feel that the avant tag must refer to jazz influences - a group could be "avant" for its incorporation of noise or dub effects, I'd imagine. My feeling is that even if the "avant-" prefix could be found to be frequently associated with the jazz world, it's a term applied by analogy, rather than one that is meant to indicate that all avant-punk must borrow from free jazz.
- Side note: With regard to Crass -- I think it's albums like Penis Envy and Yes Sir I Will that could be described as art punk or avant-punk. Whether or not they're successful, those albums clearly do borrow from experimental rock and avant-garde developments in music. In any case, I think making the distinction is peculiar. Can you imagine someone saying "I don't like art punk, but I'm a big fan of avant-punk?" Aryder779 (talk) 23:27, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
- Both art punk and avant-punk are minimally defined terms that tend to turn up in reviews. I would say that "art punk" is a broad term used to distinguish a certain recognizable constellation of groups from hardcore punk, street punk, and punk metal. In some ways I find that distinction problematic -- in that, say, the Angelic Upstarts are still making "art" -- but let's leave that quibble aside. The point is that art punk is a very broad umbrella term that includes many other styles. Punk jazz is included under the art punk rubric, for example. Art punk basically refers to groups that come from a punk background, but incorporate elements of funk, jazz, experimental rock, dub, disco, or electro.
- The art-punk article lacks references to demonstrate that the bands listed have been described as "art-punk". It's a hotch-potch of WP:OR and unconvincing connections. It looks like most of the references have been copied from the avant-punk article, because, with the exception of one source for The Ex, the others all use the term "avant-punk" (i.e. for Sonic Youth, The Ex, and Dog Faced Hermans). The art-punk article is incredibly weak on sources. What would you describe art-punk as? Crass's orrible agit-punk and Sonic Youth's experimental guitar noise (or The Ex's recent output) musically have nothing in common, really - it's hard to argue for art-punk having any sort of consistent meaning. The Ex and DFH (and to a certain extent SY) have ventured into experimental/avant-Jazz territory, which I believe is the source of the term. From the article about The Ex: "In recent years, the Ex have even bridged into avant-jazz territory".--Michig (talk) 06:09, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
- I don't really see what you mean. Only three bands are listed on this page: Sonic Youth, The Ex, and the Dog-Faced Hermans. The first two are already listed at art punk. It doesn't seem to me that anything in the "avant-punk" name necessarily indicates a jazz influence. I don't see this page as indicating much of a definition. I don't think art punk is a term for bands that "use visuals/poetry". Punk jazz doesn't strike me as an odd name, either.
It's incredible how people keep inventing genres just because people "tag" post-punk, post-hardcore and gothic rock bands as art-punk bands on last.fm. How people would consider Gang of Four art-punk just because a critic doesn't like to use the "post-punk" term. This is absurd and it must be stopped somehow. The-15th (talk) 23:00, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
\people need to stop inventing genres for the hell of it. the art-punk article suffices. there should be a merge71.147.3.208 (talk) 00:11, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
There seems to be a general consensus towards merger, unless anyone objects I'm going to merge them in the next few days.Hoponpop69 (talk) 18:40, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
- There is no such consensus, and I am baffled by your claim that there is. Most of the discussion above took place several months ago with Aryder779 and Michig never coming to an agreement. Then, we have two useless random comments that do not help at all. So, no consensus for a merger. ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 14:52, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
- Aryder was the only person with a problem. One of the two "useless random comments" states plainly "there should be a merge" the other categorizes this as an "invented genre". Why do you think the two articles shouldn't be merged?Hoponpop69 (talk) 23:35, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
- I'm in favor of the merge; is that clear? Aryder779 (talk) 17:01, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
Yeah I meant Michig, my bad.Hoponpop69 (talk) 04:34, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
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Is avant-punk proto-punk?
[edit]This article seems a bit odd to me – it mentions the Yardbirds and the Kinks as precedents of avant-punk, and two of the main bands of avant-punk as the Dictators and the New York Dolls. With a few exceptions, the list of bands basically mirrors the proto-punk canon, including several bands I've never heard mentioned as being influenced by avant-garde music. How, for example, are the Modern Lovers avant-garde at all, except in the literal meaning of "avant" as being "ahead of" ... or in other words, "proto"? Paradisets portar (talk) 09:14, 7 August 2017 (UTC)