Descriptors for neighbouring communities
Please note that this article is about the Cadboro Bay neighbourhood, not a place to label neighbouring communities as "tony", or "exclusive". Such descriptors do not abide encyclopedic style, and should be removed. This is not an argument against what you choose to call them, nor a defence of the communities themselves, it's merely the style of this project. Perceptions and labels for communities, if used commonly enough, may be permitted on those articles pages, depending ultimately, on editorial agreement. Thanks--Keefer4 09:02, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
- Keefer4 - you've confused the neighbourhood with the nearby nunnery - please take a look at Queenswood Drive yourself and then you'll see why the word "secluded" is important. My impression is that you are from Vancouver and are not familiar with the area.
- I am originally from Victoria and have lived on Cadboro Bay Road, actually. But that is quite immaterial, and your impression of me is not relevant to this. Nor is any impression of a neighbourhood relevant to the article. I don't live in the area anymore, but tell ya what.. I'm gonna be in Victoria this week, and if I am not able to easily find and walk up and down Queenswood Drive, like I have many times passing through Uplands for example, I will keep 'secluded' in the article, although that does kind of contravene the 'original research' aspect of Wikipedia! But I think a bit of elaboration on 'secluded' would be useful in this case if it is to be kept (ie: how is it 'secluded'? is it gated?). Otherwise it does come across as something someone might say to stereotype a neighbouring community. Not like I've never done that on a blog, but it's not something for an encyclopedia. I did study several maps prior to deleting the reference last time, as I don't make a habit of doing these things without at least a bit of good ol homework. It's nothing personal, it just needs a bit of explanation or reference. And yes, I did reference the nunnery in my previous edit, because I assumed that was why 'secluded' was included. Please sign your posts with four tildes ~~~~ Cheers and good day.--Keefer4 06:45, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
- So I've done a bit more snooping, and I can see that obviously with some properties selling in the $10 million range, there is a clear element of 'upscale' to the area. And I can see from photos that the homes (at least some/most of them) are set back from the road and therefore secluded in and of themselves. I still disagree with the categorization of a neighbourhood as being "secluded" however. I look forward to my walk down Queenswood. Perhaps some re-wording is really all that is necessary here, ie: 'secluded homes' as opposed to 'secluded neighbourhoods'. Later.--Keefer4 09:49, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Good comments! I used to live in Victoria myself. Perhaps you should fill in the Wikipedia section on Queenswood after your walk because I see no one has done that yet and I've done enough research of my own here. Agree that Queenswood can be accessed by road fairly easily. I see that the word "secluded" isn't quite correct and maybe you can think of a better term. I used that word because so many of the homes appear so hidden and private. Also, I used the term because Queenswood as a neighbourhood itself is not nearly as well known as, for example, Uplands or even its neighbour, Ten Mile Point. Uplands seems very public and showy compared to Queenswood in that it almost invites tour buses and tourists to drive through and gape at the conspicuous displays of wealth. Queenswood residents, by contrast, don't look like they wish to advertise themselves and, in fact, on the contrary appear to want to keep their wealthy nature somewhat hidden from view which does not seem true in Uplands (they like their seclusion perhaps?). Interesting how different the mood can be in two wealthy, older areas even though both are in the same city. Have also a walk/drive down McAnally Road in nearby 10 Mile Point to Smuggler's Cove for a very similar but slightly different ambience/theme.
For some more perspective while in Vic and to add to your social-geographic research, you might have a drive through (that's the only efficient way to view that neighbourhood) Broadmead which was very carefully planned and anticipated to be the new rich area of Victoria by its developers (the Guinness Family of British Properties fame, in fact was the financial backing behind it) in the 1970's with the thought that it would supplant the older wealthy Victoria areas like Uplands and Queenswood as a home for the elite of Victoria (just as Uplands appears to have mainly supplanted Rockland - with some exceptions - where many of the big, old mansions were converted into apartment buildings). Do you think the developers of Broadmead succeeding in creating the "New Uplands"? Look forward to your observations and analysis!
Please also read my comments in the "discussion" part of Uplands. PS. I'm an amateur geography nut. signed 188.8.131.52184.108.40.206 07:39, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Victoria neighbourhoods Hi, Appreciate the input (and indeed, enlightenment) on both Uplands and Cadboro Bay. I am back in the Lower Mainland now, but a quick look at the Queenswood area led me to re-phrase the Cadboro Bay article describing Queenswood from "secluded neighbourhood" to "secluded homes". The Broadmead observation was interesting, as is the entire retrospective on how newer wealthy neighbourhoods supplant older ones. It's something I'll follow up on in the future. Cheers.--Keefer4 08:00, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Keefer4 - I think the topic of new versus older wealthy neighbourhoods is an interesting study -- in Vancouver, I believe the now high rise West End used to be occupied by large mansions until supplanted by Shaughnessy - Shaughnessy itself seems to have held on to its status.
By the way, my opinion is that the developers of Broadmead did not succeed in supplanting the older wealthy elite areas of Vic like Uplands although Broadmead is a very successful development - but you may have a different read than myself. I would be curious what your thoughts are after taking a look around.
In her haste to eliminate "blatant advertising", the last editor removed reference to the BEACH which is the most striking part of Cadboro Bay! I've put the BEACH BACK IN! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.127.116.11 (talk) 06:48, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
Someone keeps wanting to keep references to the beach out. I've put it back again.
Merge Ten Mile Point
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
- No merge due to lack of consensus to do so.
Ten Mile Point when I found it was a promotional-type article focussing on this "expesnive, exclusive" neighborhood, which really is only a development within Cadboro Bay; it doesn't seem to warrant special status as a neighubuoorhood unless designated as such by the municipality. The overwritten "rugged coastline" crap is so clearly promotional - I added the "Like anywhyere else on Vancouver Island" bit to make the point that it's like saying "the sky is blue". The merge could be worse - Broadmead-Suunymead arficle just got delted for being even more advertotirial in nature; this one's rescuable but I think only really relevant if part of a bona fide neighbourhood.....Skookum1 (talk) 14:53, 26 May 2008 (UTC) ()
- Support: I don't see the need for separate articles for a neighbourhood and a sub-neighbourhood, when other neighbourhoods in Saanich don't have articles.DigitalC (talk) 00:34, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
Anyone is free to create articles about neighbourhoods. Ten Mile Point is not a sub-area of Cadboro Bay anymore than Broadmead is a sub-area of Cordova Bay. It is a bona fide neighbourhood. Cadboro Bay has streetlamps and entirely different zoning for instance than 10 mile point. I vote to keep this separate from Cadboro Bay and perhaps you could take a poll of the people who live there or in Cadboro Bay - you obviously do not. Have you been through there recently? It is more than a development and ask anyone in Victoria (where you do not live most likely) it is a bona fide neughbourhood as much as Uplands, South Oak Bay, Gordon Head, Broadmead. Please provide evidence that this is a "development only within Cadboro Bay" when so clearly it is not. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.104.22.168 (talk) 00:55, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
I should also add that I was the original creator of the Cadboro Bay, Uplands and Ten Mile Point articles. I kept them all separate for very good reasons. The information that was placed in all three was based on my personal experiences of living in all three for many years. Did any of you live in these places? if you did, please talk about your experiences. My experiences that I am expressing here are backed up with historial and statistical research and I am prepared to defend my writing with numbers and facts if challenged. All I ask is you submit to the same rigourous proof I am prepared to do. I am not a realtor or promotor. Having said that, I do think the recent editors here are being rather condescending towards realtors who probably would know an area more intimately than an academic sitting in a geography classroom hundreds of kilometres away - and don't get me wrong - - my family is more academic than sales. I did not create articles on many other areas like Gordon Head, Bear Mountain, Mount Tolmie or Broadmead as I never lived in those neighbourhoods and would rather defer to someone who knows them better than I do. It would be nice for there to be write ups about them but I am not that person. Having said that, I would hope that the hard work of those with the historical memory and actual first hand experiences backed up with solid research would be respected and not just "junked" as appears to be happening. I am further concerned that such crude editing is being done by people who have never lived in the Victoria area and most likely hail from Vancouver or further. So fire away with your questions and concerns - and I'll happily defend my conclusions and we can get a dialogue going. If you also feel an article should not be present because other neighbourhoods are not - add the article about the neighbourhood that isn't represented here or start a civil constructive discussion - don't wreck what was created. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 22.214.171.124 (talk) 01:52, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
- A notice of your dispute has been placed on the discussion boards at the Canada and BC WikiProjects. You are quite wrong about people who "come from away", because there are many Islanders active in Wiki, but even then it doesn't matter; Wiki content has to stand up to scrutiny from people not from the area. "Our expaeriences" dont' matter, neutral, citable content is what matters. I think you'll hear much the same from other editors, although I've asked for people to look over what I took out and see what's redeemable and shoudl be back in. Content that reads like a sales pitch is a sales pitch......Skookum1 (talk) 03:47, 27 May 2008 (UT
hmmmmm . . . interesting discussion . . . my vote is for 10 mile point to stay in separately from Caddy Bay. In Victoria most people I speak to especially if they live on the eastern side of the city distinguish the two areas quite clearly although they are in the same general part of town. I lived in 10 mile for five years and I'm guessing the population while quite spread out is as about the same as the uplands, lakehill and bigger than maplewood, gonzales hill, oaklands, rockland but smaller in population than fairfield, gordon head or james bay. When living there, when I gave my street address to friends, taxi drivers and pizza delivery guys and said I lived in Cadboro Bay, they always became hopelessly lost. When I indicated 10 mile point, they knew exactly where to go and did not get lost. When one mentioned 10 mile point, most who have lived in Victoria for a year or more immediately knew about the area. Caddy Bay is always associated with the sandy beach and its village centre. No one in 10 mile point says they live in Caddy Bay and no one living in or near Caddy Bay village or on the sandy beach says they live in 10 mile point. A house up for sale in 10 mile point never says it is in the Cadboro Bay neighbourhood although sometimes a Cadboro Bay house will advertise (incorrectly) that it has a 10 mile point address. The MLS realty service keeps 10 mile separate from caddy bay.
Complicating things is the fact that the Cadboro Bay Homeowners Association says they "represent residents living in the neighbourhoods of Cadboro Bay, Queenswood & Ten Mile Point".
Sometimes even Uplands is described as one of the Cadboro Bay neighbourhoods as it is adjacent to Cadboro Bay as well even though it is in the Municipality of Oak Bay not the Municipality of Saanich.
Further complicating things is there is a fairly large subdivision/gated community within the 10 mile point neighborhood called "Wedgewood Estates" but the residents almost always say they live in 10 mile point and this subdivision is squarely in the middle of the geographic peninsula known as 10 mile point. They don't say they live in Cadboro Bay.
10 mile point is at least as distinct an area as cordova bay, lakehill, deep cove, Rockland etc. so probably it should be kept. there should be more articles of other neighbourhoods and I'll try to add a few more. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ronpacific (talk • contribs)
- Tillicum (neighbourhood) or Tillicum, Saanich needs an article; Tillicum, British Columbia is a required name format if the neighbourhood spans the Victoria-Saanic boundary though....Skookum1 (talk) 16:01, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Given that 10 mile point is in Saanich, does this link help clarify? ? Queenswood, 10 Mile Point, and Cadboro Bay are all one, according to the view of Saanich. On the other hand, I don't think anyone from Victoria would consider "Shelbourne" to be a neighbourhood. (Maybe if you called it the Saanich Panhandle, or the Shelbourne Penninsula). DigitalC (talk) 12:47, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
- The website was very revealing, in that a search for "Ten Mile Point" turned up nothing in the Saanich municipal site. Not even meeting minutes make mention of it. And I dispute the IP address user's anecdotal information, it doesn't help; i.e. what pizza drivers know doesn't count. Official Vancouv er neighbourhoods don'st jibe/mesh with experienced reality, or pizza-driver knowledge either, but taht's not the way wiki articles get structured; they get structured by citable evidence, and here the evidence is that Ten Mile Point only has special status within Cadboro Bay because it was branded/marketed that way. If the municipal si9te makes NO mention of it, I'd say the case is clear for support merge.Skookum1 (talk) 16:01, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Skookum1 - this article really, really bugs you. Most Saanich neighbourhoods are not necessarily "officially recognized" - so you might as well delete most of them then. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.96.36.199 (talk) 21:43, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Notably, the Saanich site does not "officially" recognize Broadmead but lumps it into Royal Oak but most people in Broadmead would not say they live in Royal Oak. No one says they live in a neighbourhood called "Shelbourne" either. They say they live either in Fernwood, Jubillee or Hillside. Perhas the Saanich demarcations on the map do not reflect reality on the ground. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.8.131.52 (talk) 21:51, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
I see also that there are no such neighbourhoods as Braefoot, Maplewood, Mount Tolmie or Cedar Hill recognized by Saanich. They are either lumped into "Quadra", "North Quadra" or "Shelbourne". Again, if you merge ten mile point, then you'll have to merge Cedar Hill into Quadra. Only Gordon Head, Tillicum, and Cordova Bay seem to be "officially recognized". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.108.40.206 (talk) 22:08, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
I see the Saanich site describes "Carey" as an official area but no one I have met says they live in "Carey". They would say Strawberry Vale or Marigold. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.127.116.11 (talk) 22:17, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
- The main issues remain citability; your opinion and personal experience/perspective are not valid citations. That's it. Vancouver has traditional neighbourhoods that the city doesn't name either, and official neighbourhoods names which nobody uses except in ref to city programmes defined by t hem. But they're all that Wiki can handle; personal anecdotal information/definitions are not valid. Nothing you have said indicates that this should not be merged to Cadboro Bay.....Skookum1 (talk) 20:42, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Are you saying then that any neighbourhood not "officially recognized" by a governmental body should be deleted? If so, then the richness of Wikipedia will be severely damaged. You will also then have to go through Wikipedia articles all over the world and then change them. By yoru dogmatic approach to Wikipedia, you will forever hobble this project. Will you then reduce the number of neighbourhoods in Saanich to just about 8 or 9? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.104.22.168 (talk) 00:44, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
- In the case of Vancouver, that's the standard and it's dertermiend by various notability guidelines, and also reliable source-validation - please read WP:RS, as a varity of valid sources work. This is ultimatley applied to all articles, and you'll find requests for citation and notability critiques all over the place if you look around various community articles. Other htan WP:RS[[ also visit the Canadian communities WikiProject, the switch for which I just added to the template at the top of this page. Even with reliable sources this still doesn't mean something tets its own article; notability does that, but even then. notability is for things like Hogan's Alley in Vancouverk it's otherwise part of Strathcona (Vancouver) or whatevr the article name for that is. Victoria area articles are all suscept to Wikipedia naming and content guideilnes; which is what established existing neighbourhood article guidelines; "what's a neighbourhood" is laid out somewhere in the Canadian wiki content-guideline pages. You shouldn't take this personally, I' ve had articles savaged too, especially when I started out. If this article hadn't largely read like a real estate promotion, by the way, it wouldn't have attracted the attention it has; eventually that attention would have found it and done much the same as what I've done. Rather than fret over this, why not create some of the other much-needed Victoria/Saanich/WEstern Community articles of all kinds in need of creating/expansding?Skookum1 (talk) 02:51, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
- Support per Skookum1. GreenJoe 18:23, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
- Support Ignoring those who ignore WP:SIGNPOST (the first link in the talkheader box above), that makes it unanimous. --KenWalker | Talk 04:59, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Do not merge Ten Mile Point and Cadboro Bay, Ten Mile Point and Cadboro Bay all though near by, Ten Mile Point and Cadboro Bay are to different things, it's like saying British Columbia and Alberta are the same thing because they connect to each other. As a person who has near has lived by Cadboro Bay and Ten Mile Point his whole life I know. Ten Mile Point most definitely should have its own page, however i feel that that the Ten Mile Point page should be revised. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 22.214.171.124 (talk) 18:58, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
- In addition you may be getting Cadboro Pt. and Ten Mile Point confused. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.96.36.199 (talk) 17:51, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
- This discussion has been noted at the WikiProject Canada "Requested moves and mergers" discussion page, and iwll utlimately be resolved by an admin/arbitrator who will "seal" this discussion after the decision is made; towards that end you would do well to prove the Ten Mile Point is NOT a part of Cadboro Bay (which according to Saanich it is) and you should also be advised that the geographic object is what the BCGNIS cite is for, not the neighbourhood (there's a difference); the comma+province format is for quasi-postal lcoations, i.e. inhabited locations, vs Ten Mile Point (British Columbia) which would be about the point. Your personal attestations are meaningless in Wikipedia (see WP:OR), especially if you're the only one making them (and you are).Skookum1 (talk) 18:16, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
- The above discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.