Talk:Charter school

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Semi-protected edit request on 3 November 2016[edit]


The term charter school should be linked to this external link: charterschoolcenter.org This is the National Charter School Resource Center and can provide even more information on what a charter school is, how to start a charter school, and access to reports, webinars, case studies, etc.

Mmryanks9 (talk) 21:41, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

Not done External links do not belong in the bodies of articles, only in external links sections and limited other places. This link also doesn't appear to be a reliable source, as it's produced by a consulting company with no indication of having a reputation for accuracy and fact-checking, which is required by guidelines. What, exactly, is the NCSRC? What is it, who is it, and what is its mission? I couldn't find anything on that site. The lack of info on that website is suspicious, and the Jumbo US Dept. of Education logo over a tiny disclaimer message doesn't help matters. Grayfell (talk) 22:23, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

This article is propaganda[edit]

I don't want to get into edit wars, but this article is pure propaganda.

Take something like this quote about the Massachusetts charter school model: "This funding scheme, and others like it across the United States ensure the profitability of these businesses, which is further enhanced by the fact that the service they provide does not follow the law of supply and demand.[16] This is because the demand for k-12 education, in the current funding scheme, is dependent solely on population growth and relatively disconnected to price.[16] Profitability is high and investment in charter schools is highly recommended by several investors interviewed for a Washington Post article.[17]"

Massachusetts requires charter schools to be not-for-profits.

Or take this quote:

"Despite the favorable public perception of charter schools their benefits are disputable. According to Stanford University studies the difference in performance between public and private schools is not conclusively significant.[18]"

The citation links to CREDO, which says nothing of the sort, and indeed, a top link there is a Snope's style article from CREDO debunking such claims: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/margaret-raymond/a-rebuttal-of-weingarten-_b_9701622.html

The article, like every such article from Harvard, Columbia, MIT, Berkeley, and every other credible research institution concludes charter schools have an undisputable and positive impact on student outcomes

Is there a way to fix this and lock it down? This is an issue with powerful political players and lots of astroturf. I suspect any edit would get reverted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.31.40.89 (talk) 02:24, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

You can edit the article, and looking at the history, I wouldn't assume it's going to get reverted. Either way, it's not going to be preemptively locked down, so you will need some specific signs of political high-jinks for that to happen. There's a lot going on here. The article is a mess, and that section on Mass. was particularly bad for a couple of reasons, so I've removed it. You're going to find a lot of people who dispute the positive outcomes, though, and not all of them are astroturf, so "indisputable" is the wrong word. The way to deal with this is through reliable sources explaining the different positions. Credo might be a reliable outlet, but just linking to the main page, as the article unfortunately did, is unhelpful. Whatever is at the top of that site's homepage is unlikely to stay for very long, and it's hard to know which study was being indicated. Huffington Post's "The Blog" is not generally considered reliable by Wikipedia's standards, by the way. Grayfell (talk) 10:28, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
If you'd like citations:
Florida study: https://news.vanderbilt.edu/2016/04/07/charter-school-grads-stay-in-college-earn-more-money-study/
Harvard Graduate School of Education review of studies (this is nice since it goes over many, and shows either a positive effect or no effect, depending on measure): https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=DsjuY0h7mVU
MIT/Columbia/Berkeley/etc.: https://seii.mit.edu/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Stand-and-Deliver-January-2016.pdf
People would dispute it. People also dispute climate change, and that the Earth is more than 6000 years old. Science suggests the opposite, with varying levels of evidence -- more for benefits of charter schools than for age of the Earth, ironically, although both fall well into the "indisputable" zone at this point. There are a few studies that show bad charter schools underperform and then disappear (Texas study is a good example), but the data shows a similar conclusion, only with a longer timescale. In that one, no-excuses charter schools do well, while other forms do badly, making it a wash overall. But other forms also disappear pretty quickly. And Stanford's CREDO does publish in sources other than Huffington Post, with much the same conclusions as the HP article, only with peer review. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.31.40.89 (talk) 02:56, 26 November 2016 (UTC)
The idea that the academic consensus on the age of the Earth is weaker than the academic consensus on the benefit of charter schools is, I'm hoping, hyperbole, as the age of the Earth is absolutely central to multiple scientific disciplines and is very widely documented and discussed. For charter schools, on the other hand, there is dispute among reputable academics, so this is not just a WP:FRINGE perspective like creationism. School choice#Debate also needs a lot of work (putting it mildly) but it includes several sourced explanations for why charter schools are legitimately controversial, even acknowledging that there are demonstrated benefits. And there are benefits, but it's too simplistic to stop there without going deeper. This is not just about individual outcomes, this is also about scalability, impact on non-charter schools, financial issues, institutional racism, and much, much more. The article doesn't have to try and cover all of those, but we shouldn't actively ignore them.
"No excuses" is especially controversial for its own set of reasons, -again, not just among the fringes, but by reputable academics.[1][2][etc] Studies on individual outcomes have their place, but even if they are top-notch they don't necessarily address these issues. Grayfell (talk) 05:52, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

Why is the criticism section blank?[edit]

I noticed that there is a criticism section in this article that is now blank. Was that the subject of some vandalism, or has this just not be fleshed out yet? — Preceding unsigned comment added by JollyGreenJesus (talkcontribs) 17:42, 18 January 2017 (UTC)

Definition[edit]

I just happened upon this page in an effort to learn more about charter schools. Generally, a good article begins with a neutral definition, but any definition of "charter school" that cites as a reference "Charter schools and the attack on public education" " would seem to be short of neutral. Why not use a definition from one of the online dictionaries, such as Merriam-Webster's definition of charter school: "a tax-supported school established by a charter between a granting body (as a school board) and an outside group (as of teachers and parents) which operates the school without most local and state educational regulations so as to achieve set goals". I would do this myself but do not have the time and interest to sustain a prolonged dialogue concerning charter schools. James809 (talk) 14:17, 28 January 2017 (UTC)