Talk:Closing Time (Semisonic song)

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"The song is commonly mislabeled as being by many other Alt-Rock bands on many p2p services due to ignorance of many people assuming all bands sound the same." - I cut this as it's not very encyclopedic. --CannedLizard 02:28, 13 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Video

Some of the transitions on the left side could be edits. Examples: 1:21 and 1:58. Cite a reference where the video maker states that the shots are continuous. If none can be found, soften the language to something like "appear to be continuous shots". I put in a citation needed but I haven't changed the text since it may be accurate and just not sourced.JoeBrennan (talk) 13:27, 1 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Genre

Is Closing Time a post grunge song? allmusic.com's "Post Grunge" page.[1] is the reference used to say it is. Allmusics "Top songs" has Closing Time, just after 3AM by Matchbox Twenty. The question is, is this reference a reliable source? --Yankees76 (talk) 20:34, 18 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Original discussion:

Not post-grunge? You've heard the song right? The quiet-loud-quiet format alone should give you an indication that it's cleaned up radio friendly grunge. In fact that description fits better than alternative rock (modern rock is more accurate). Anyways, you wanted a source so here's allmusic.com's "Post Grunge" page.[2]. "Top songs" has Closing Time, just after 3AM by Matchbox Twenty. --Yankees76 (talk) 21:37, 17 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A quiet/loud/quiet/loud dynamic can apply to any genre of music. Not just post-grunge... dance-pop or jazz, too. And if I'm interpreting that page correctly, it's showing the most commercially successful songs by artists that are labeled post-grunge. Maybe Semisonic is a post-grunge band, but "Closing Time" ain't a post-grunge song. You'd need a source much more concrete than that. Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 23:36, 17 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Like I said, the song more closely resembles pop rock: see the Sacramento Bee - [3] Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 23:40, 17 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think a third party needs to be involved - the source is clearly a reliable source and your interpretation is certainly not accurate. Where does it say most commercially successful? Most post-grunge bands only managed one hit, except Matchbox Twenty and their most commercially successful song is Bent, not 3AM as is listed on the allmusic post-grunge list - so that theory isn't relevent. Per WP:V the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—whether readers can check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true. So wether or not you "think" it's a post grunge song shouldn't be coming into play here. It's labeled post-grunge, as indicated by a reliable source so I'm reverting your change. --Yankees76 (talk) 17:09, 18 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that allmusic is a reliable source; then again, you could probably find another reasonable source that classifies it differently. In that case, it wouldn't hurt to list it under multiple genre's, since there is rarely universal agreement as to what genre a song/band falls under (as is the case for the Semisonic article). OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 17:20, 18 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The Allmusic page lists "3AM" as a post-grunge song, which is absolutely hilarious and highly dubious (it's practically a pop rock song!) - which is why I interpret that page as listing the biggest albums and songs by "post-grunge" bands, not necessarily the biggest post-grunge albums and post-grunge songs. Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 17:34, 18 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

But that's just your POV. I'm glad you think it's hilarious - but it's still just your opinion, and we're not building an encyclopedia based on peoples opinions on subjects.

It's a common argument with numerous band and song articles between editors over what genre or sub-genre it is and 90% of it is opinion based - some people thing so and so is metal, but another guy thinks it's pop or pop metal, or so and so isn't punk etc etc.. This time there is actually a reliable source however, so reverting it on personal tastes really needs to be avoided. The song can probably fit multiple genres including post grunge, modern rock, alternative rock and just rock. Still the song itself fits the description of post grunge - "a derivative of grunge, utilizing the sounds and aesthetic of grunge, but with a more commercially acceptable sound" more than pop-rock "an "upbeat variety of rock music represented by artists such as Elton John, Paul McCartney, The Everly Brothers, Rod Stewart, Chicago, and Peter Frampton." The distortion used on the chorus and guitar "solo", not to mention the "quiet-loud-quiet-loud" song structure that was previously made notable by Nirvana, the Pixies and hundreds of copy cat grunge bands in the early 90's is enough to at least warrant the search for sources. If anything this was the song that gives Semisonic the post-grunge label, as most of their other "hits" or songs they're known for (Secret Smile, Singing In My Sleep) sounded nothing like it. --Yankees76 (talk) 17:38, 18 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If you want to find another reference that calls that song "post-grunge", then fine. But that list is a bunch of hullaballoo - an acoustic pop rock song like Sugar Ray's "Every Morning" is on that list. So is Barenaked Ladies' "One Week". Simply put, these aren't post-grunge songs. Allmusic does not categorize individual songs by genre - it only handles artists and albums. So using this list as a reference doesn't seem valid to me. Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 17:45, 18 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Regardless of your opinion of the list, Allmusic is a notable and well-established source used frequently in Wikipedia. Genre identification is always a gray area; when in doubt, list several and provided well-known sources to back them up. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 17:53, 18 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not opposing Allmusic itself, just that page within Allmusic. Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 18:03, 18 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Because it doesn't fit your definition of "post grunge"? How long have you been editing here? You know that carries no weight and it's not NPOV. Post grunge was added to the song's page by someone other than myself, so clearly I'm not the only person who doesn't find that far fetched - I just found the source that backs it up when it was asked for. I personlly can see why it's post-grunge, but the piano and effeminate vocals do give a pop sensibility as well. The Allmusic list is a reliable source - it's not up to us to determine wether it's accurate or not. There aren't exactly 100's of sources out there that list songs and their labels. I'm starting to question why each song, album and band needs a label on Wikipedia. This isn't the 70's anymore with clear cut musical genres.

By the way, post-grunge is not just limited to bands that openly copy grunge bands like Creed Nickelback, Godsmack or Bush or even spin offs of Seattle bands like Foo Fighters - post-grunge are also bands that took what grunge was doing and made it over-produced and mainstream in the late 1990's after the height of the original grunge movement. They dressed grung(y), they had angsty or weird/cryptic lyrics, they distorted their guitars somewhat and they generally had one or two hits before they faded out. Bands like Candlebox, Dishwalla, Matchbox Twenty, Moist, The Verve Pipe, Better than Ezra and Local H - they're also post grunge the same way that the Posies and Alice in Chains can both be labeled "grunge" even though one was power pop and the othe closer to metal than grunge. But again, that's my opinion, and that stays out of articles....--Yankees76 (talk) 18:13, 18 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm familiar with grunge/post-grunge, thank you. I just find it a little disarming that you are willing to ignore reason and rational thinking and submit to using the Allmusic "post-grunge song" page without considering how the list was compiled. I won't debate most of those songs, but when there's entries like "Every Morning" on there, it really makes me question whether this can be considered an accurate source of genres. Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 18:28, 18 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You shouldn't be debating any of those songs. The reality is it's not for Wikipedia to make pronouncements about what songs may be correctly or incorrectly labeled as post-grunge on a well established, frequently cited site that is solely dedicated to reviewing and categorizing music. Our only job here is to reflect what is listed. If you disagree, contact them to make your case or make your case here and get consensus that all of Allmusic be disallowed as a reliable source on Wikipedia. --Yankees76 (talk) 18:38, 18 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If you blindly want to accept whatever Allmusic says as fact, that's your prerogative. Like I've already said, Allmusic does not classify individual songs by genre - they do artists and albums, and anything more specific is merely a leap of faith. Surely, if this is a "post-grunge" song, there is at least one other source out there that can verify this? Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 18:47, 18 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Not blindly, don't put words in my mouth - I've made my points above. In fact I've made a better case for keeping it than you have at removing it or disallowing Allmusic altogether. Just because they don't classify songs by genre (as each song doesn't have it's own article) isn't basis to discredit them based on one Wikipedia editors personal opinion or original research. How many sources does Wikipedia require for something like this? Or more accurately, how many other songs genres are being challenged that they not only need one reliable source, but two? --Yankees76 (talk) 18:59, 18 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Green Day?

Why is there no reference to the Green Day release of this song, which is by far the better known version? Guinness2702 (talk) 22:14, 8 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Because it's not a Green Day song, and they've never released a version of it. --Yankees76 ^Talk 12:25, 9 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, so why do a lot of people believe they did? Worth mentioning? Guinness2702 (talk) 16:50, 14 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Not really, and only if there's significant coverage of it in reliable sources. Otherwise a few people mislabeling their YouTube videos and mp3s on P2P or torrent sites with the wrong band is not really encyclopedic or rare. Off the top of my head The Hollies, "Long Cool Woman In A Black Dress" is mistaken and mislabeled for being done by CCR; Rockwell recorded "Somebody's Watching Me", but it's is often labeled as Michael Jackson (though he does sing the chorus); Spirit of The West's "Home for a Rest" is usually labeled as being a Great Big Sea song. I could go on and on - however 90% of the time it's not usually worth noting here. One exception is America's, "A Horse With No Name" which is often labeled as Neil Young, and received some minor coverage (the article here has an unsourced quote from the lead singer about the confusion and the backlash the band received about it). This song being mislabeled as being Green Day is not really one of those cases. --Yankees76 ^Talk 18:06, 14 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In Popular Culture : Films

The article says that in Friends with Benefits, Justin Timberlake erroneously attributes the song to Third Eye Blind. But I remember that he says,"This is not by Third Eye Blind, can you believe it? It's by Semisonic!" Or something, but I distinctly remember that he says it is 'not by Third Eye Blind'. Can anyone who has the movie with them see the last scene again and comment? ~Shubhorup — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.178.170.81 (talk) 05:59, 7 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not going to start editing this article or argue over people deleting things when I think they should have requested citations instead, but if anyone cares about the case where the song was used in popular culture they should check back to older versions of the article [4]. -- 109.76.137.143 (talk) 19:03, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

not played in seinfeld final episode

This song does not appear in the final moments of the seinfeld final episode as suggested in the article. I watched the last 7 minutes of it just now (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_OS1q6f5Rc). Perhaps the person who wrote this confused "closing time" with the song "time of your life" by Greenday, which was played in the montage at the beginning of the final episode? In any case I can find no evidence that "closing time" was played. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.114.22.35 (talk) 00:29, 25 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Quote attributed to Seneca

Senenca is not the author of that quote. "Remember, don't believe all the quote attributions that you read on the Internet" -- Abraham Lincoln.2604:2000:1382:E148:B4B1:655D:F94C:8DC (talk) 23:01, 14 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I did some searching, but the only thing I could find that had any conclusiveness was this one that says the statement originated with Semisonic. Sensei Le Roof (talk) 01:06, 31 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]