Talk:Crisis on Infinite Earths (Arrowverse)/Archive 1

Archive 1

The Flash episode info

Not sure if this from a Flash script supervisor can really be used as a reliable source, but nevertheless here's the episode info for The Flash part of the crossover. - Brojam (talk) 03:39, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

I feel that if it’s someone showing off their work, or explaining the status of their work, it should be considered reliable. Your work is part of who you are.--Simmerdon3448 (talk) 16:13, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

Simmerdon3448, you know it's not, per WP:SOCIALMEDIA. Been there, discuss that. -- /Alex/₂₁ 21:50, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

WHERE? Quote yourself addressing that social media posts by someone showing off their own work is not about themselves--Simmerdon3448 (talk) 23:49, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

It's your edits that are under dispute. Back up your own claims to support that it is indeed the case. If not, then the policy remains as thus. -- /Alex/₂₁ 05:00, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

It says so right in the policy that you keep taking out of context--Simmerdon3448 (talk) 13:02, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

You are assuming that their work is the same as them themselves. Gain a consensus for that. -- /Alex/₂₁ 13:06, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

1) Primary sources can only be used as sources for themselves. 2) Secondary sources about a single primary source (a script) can only be used as a secondary source for that specific primary source and not another, although related, primary source (the broadcast episode). DonQuixote (talk) 15:42, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

The last edits

Hi. Sorry for being unbeliever, but how exactly do they know from that Twitter photo that Candice Patton, for example, will be Iris West-Allen from Earth-1 and not, for example, Braniac from Earth-212? All I can see is the actors are confirmed, not the roles. Thank you. IKhitron (talk) 17:25, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

The secondary source reports it so by stating "the image features Iris West (Candice Patton)". -- /Alex/₂₁ 17:27, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

Exactly, they say "As you can see". I can't see this from the picture, how can they? Do they have another reliable source, or does Nicole Drum just guessing? IKhitron (talk) 17:32, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

IKhitron, we're supposed to go with what the media publicises until it's proven false. For example, the twist about Nick Fury and Maria Hill in Far from Home. Kailash29792 (talk) 17:29, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

Or Matt Smith as Skynet in Terminator Genisys--Simmerdon3448 (talk) 20:55, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

Sure. It can happen with anyone in scifi, so we can talk about it only if it's really possible. If Monitor would bring flowers instead of Malefic, it will not be a problem, still we would not know it's really him. But if good character starts to misbehave, questions should be asked. IKhitron (talk) 21:00, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

I see. It's an enwiki rule. Well, I'm not writing this as facts in our wiki. This is why I never wrote that The Monitor brought Malefic, because it could be also The Anti-Monitor, still it's almost for sure it was The Monitor. Thank you all for your help. IKhitron (talk) 17:32, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

I might be mistaken, but I’m pretty sure the Anti-Monitor wouldn’t be visible on a BTS photo like that, because the aesthetic differences are all done through CG. And considering that the outfit colors made no difference to the ambiguity, it seems to me that without the CG, it’s just LaMonica being The Monitor. In effect, using LaMonica might be a bad example--Simmerdon3448 (talk) 16:56, 11 October 2019 (UTC)

That's not up to us to interpret. If we were assuming this from the primary source alone, then yes, there would be an issue, but we are not; we read the secondary source as it presents the information. -- /Alex/₂₁ 17:34, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

Again, it's enwiki rule. We can't do such things without a reliable source. If there is a doubt - there is no doubt what to do. Thank you again. IKhitron (talk) 17:37, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

BTW, you can add Alex Danvers, if so. IKhitron (talk) 14:40, 11 October 2019 (UTC)

The Crisis logo

Hi. Is there a reason that you're using a low quality logo? If you just couldn't find better, you can try File:Crisis on Infinite Earths teaser logo.jpg, 1,280 × 720, 136 KB. IKhitron (talk) 16:31, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

IKhitron, please read WP:IMAGERES for more info on image sizes. Kailash29792 (talk) 16:37, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

I see. Thank you for the explanation. IKhitron (talk) 16:39, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

Road to Crisis

In the same vein as in comic books and considering the plots of Arrow's season premiere and Flash's second episode; there could be a section to describe all events leading up to the Crisis. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.216.129.195 (talk) 02:45, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

Selectively, yes. The destruction of Earth-2 is a big one, but honestly there isn't anything noteworthy, I feel, from the second episode of The Flash to include here. We already have from last week's episode info from Wallace that the episodes leading to the crossover will set it up, so it is inherently implied they have content related to this. Currently, all this info is going in the Writing section, but maybe a new one is needed. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 05:19, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

So when it comes to summerising the plot of the actual episodes, would we briefly mention the build up from the previous episodes, or would we just start with the first episode? I just feel like it'll be strange if we have the plot of the episodes alone with none of the build up, especially since certain characters will be finishing arcs in the episodes that they have already started (probably). Like I imagine Barry's arc regarding his death will end with him finding a way to survive in the crisis, but said arc has already started in the first episode.

I fell like in the plot section, we could have two sections, one for the actual event, and then one before that briefly detailing the build up.--Ditto51 (My Talk Page) 10:55, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

Yeah I think a lead-up section in the plot doing what you've described, followed by the actual crossover plot would work. We could even start something now. I think the big points so far are Barry learning he will die and trying to prevent it, Oliver working for the Monitor, and then Earth-2 being destroyed. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 16:46, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

I'm good with that. - Brojam (talk) 17:45, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

@Ditto51 and Brojam: I've just added something to start. Please take a look and let me know, or adjust as you see fit. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 17:56, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

Looks very good! - Brojam (talk) 18:48, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

Since we now have a "Lead-up" section for the plot, maybe we should put back the "Production/Lead-up" info into the "Writing" section to avoid having two sections with the same name. Or we could name it "Arrowverse tie-ins" like we do in the season pages of the shows. - Brojam (talk) 21:31, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

What about taking a cue from Marvel and their prelude comics and call the plot lead up section a "prelude perhaps? Although now that I've said it it doesn't sound quite like what the section is--Ditto51 (My Talk Page) 13:06, 18 October 2019 (UTC)

We could combine the production "Lead up" back to development (it would be this section, not writing I feel to combine with), but I think having it separate works as well. Open to other names as well, but I don't think "Arrowverse tie-ins" is appropriate in this instance. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 17:09, 18 October 2019 (UTC)

I agree, because it’s an Arrowverse event, so to say Arrowverse tie-ins would just be weird--Simmerdon3448 (talk) 18:42, 18 October 2019 (UTC)

Since the production lead up section is almost entirely about the writing side of things, could we put it in there with a slight change of wording to say that it is the writing around events leading up to the event?--Ditto51 (My Talk Page) 18:48, 18 October 2019 (UTC)

Keeping the discussion in this thread, shouldn't the prelude be in a section before the synopsis since the synopsis is really explaining the episodes themselves? Or have a overarching "plot summary" with prelude, then synopsis? Someone in SoCal Area (talk) 02:01, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

"Synopsis" can cover the "Prelude" and then the "Plot", which will be the heading for the episodes themselves going off of what was used on the previous crossover articles. Ditto51 had mentioned using a format similar to comic book events, so I was basing what is currently here off of Trinity War and Forever Evil, two articles I had done substantial work on when they had released. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 03:39, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

List of Smallville characters

Hi. This article tells us then Mehcad Brooks (James Olsen-38), Jesse Rath (Brainiac 5-38), David Harewood (J'onn J'onzz-38), Katie Cassidy (Laurel Lance-2) and Juliana Harkavy (Dinah Drake-1) will participate in the Crisis. Is this for sure? There is no source over there. Thank you. IKhitron (talk) 13:08, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

Harewood and Harkavy have been seen shooting episodes of it. Nothing on the others though Rath and Cassidy are likely. Spanneraol (talk) 19:12, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

Twitter for sourcing character appearances

Can they be used on this article? For example Canadagraphs has a spoiler picture showing Ray Palmer/Atom, Supergirl, Flash and Mick Rory all together which was from the Legends of Tomorrow episode. See [1] There also seems to be pictures showing various other characters, such as Batwoman. I know most people know this is common sense that they will appear, but the character table seems a bit well empty. I also didn't see Mick mentioned on the page despite the example given. Esuka (talk) 21:22, 1 November 2019 (UTC)

Another example showing Dominic Purcell(Mick) is in the crossover. [2]. Esuka (talk) 21:26, 1 November 2019 (UTC)

Source

Hi. Is this a reliable source for episode number? IKhitron (talk) 10:58, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

No; it appears to be a sub-site of SpoilerTV, which is widely considered unreliable in WP:TV. -- /Alex/₂₁ 11:01, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

Thank you. IKhitron (talk) 11:02, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

Episodes number

Hi. This article marks Batwoman 1x9 as the crisis episode. On the other hand, thefutoncritic makes it impossible, when it tells us that 1x9 will be broadcasted on December 1. How can we cope with that? Thank you. IKhitron (talk) 09:45, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

Production order. 109 means that it was the ninth episode to be filmed, but it will be the eighth episode to air. It's likely the case, then, that episode 9 (Crisis) was the eighth episode to be filmed and will therefore be listed as 108. The number on TFC doesn't always indicate the airing order, but typically corresponds to the production code for the episode.

For an example, see these two episodes of Arrow Season 4. They were Episodes 4 and 5 to be aired (compare the dates and see Arrow (season 4)#ep73), but reversed when it came to filming them: the filming order was 1, 2, 3, 5, 4, 6, that's why they're listed as 405 and 404. -- /Alex/₂₁ 09:57, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

Thank you. IKhitron (talk) 09:58, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

Images

Do we really need both File:Crisis on Inifinite Earths (main casts photo).jpg and File:CrisisBehindTheScenes.jpg? -- /Alex/₂₁ 22:12, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

Definitely not. We honestly don't even need either in my opinion. We have not put similar non-free BTS-type group pics in any of the other crossover articles so not sure why we have now 2 for this one. The poster will be enough. - Brojam (talk) 22:47, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

What will be "recurring" for this?

Hey all. With Cress Williams' involvement confirmed for 2 episodes (at least at this time), just wanted to see what others thought we should define as "recurring" for all the guest cast members to include in the table. Since we're dealing with 5 shows this time, I think 3 appearances should be considered "recurring" and those actors moved to the table with three "guest" tags. For reference, with Crisis on Earth-X, when we had 4 shows, 2 appearances was considered recurring. And if we decide 3 for the table, maybe in the "Guest" section, we just do a straight list, and include little note refs next to the names for the shows? So like Cress Williams as Black Lightning . - Favre1fan93 (talk) 05:29, 17 November 2019 (UTC)

I'm good with going with minimum 3, especially if there's a lot of people with only 2 appearances. But on the other hand, if it's like only 2-3 more people being added to the table, then I'd go with leaving it at minimum 2 like the other crossovers, since I'm not totally a fan of adding note refs to all the guest stars (much prefer the subheadings). - Brojam (talk) 05:40, 17 November 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, I’m good with a 50% minimum for appearances in the crossovers (even though here it’s a choice of 40 or 60 percent with no real inbetween)--Simmerdon3448 (talk) 17:03, 17 November 2019 (UTC)

Great, I'll make the change and add a note. I'll also try something in the guest section to list actors multiple times. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 22:48, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

cast list order

Is there any reason for the order of the cast list? It seems rather random and is hard to track.. can't we put it in alphabetical order? Also, Ryan Choi is only confirmed for one chapter so far.. so why is he in the chart while Superman is not? Spanneraol (talk) 20:00, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

Chau was confirmed for multiple chapters when he was cast, before we set the three episode threshold, and with two 2020 episodes remaining to confirm, such hasn’t been mathematically eliminated from the truth or qualification based on the information we have--Simmerdon3448 (talk) 21:18, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

@Spanneraol: The order will ultimately be based on episode credits. So at the moment, we have all the characters confirmed for Supergirl (with the main cast members listed in their season order, followed by guest cast), then we have any actors who appear as guests in Batwoman, followed by The Flash, Arrow, and Legends. This order is just to get us started until the episodes start releasing. And as Simmerdon said, Chau has been reliably sourced as being a recurring member, hence why he is in the table on the onset. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 21:29, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

Tyler Hoechlin

Hi. I think Tyler Hoechlin should me moved to the table, due to your decision about three episodes appearance. IKhitron (talk) 20:03, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

You are completely correct and he’s been incorporated accordingly--Simmerdon3448 (talk) 21:14, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

Thanks. IKhitron (talk) 21:32, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

Inconsistency

Hi. There are two places that say that Nash Wells and Pariah is the same, and two places (including actors table) that they are not. I think it should be unified somehow. IKhitron (talk) 18:44, 2 December 2019 (UTC)

This isn't an inconsistency. The tag has shown Wells becoming this character. But until we see more, we don't know if they will be one and the same, or still 2 separate characters. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 20:34, 2 December 2019 (UTC)

The tag does not actually show Wells "becoming" Pariah.. it just shows him start glowing and the voice says he will transform. To say he becomes Pariah right now is using original research and assumptions.. not factual evidence from the show.. so it should be changed until more info becomes available. Spanneraol (talk) 20:38, 2 December 2019 (UTC)

It does not metter either you decide there are enough sources to make them one person, or not. Anyhow, it should be one of these, but you can't do nothing when the article is contradictory to itself. Just peak one. IKhitron (talk) 22:25, 2 December 2019 (UTC)

@Spanneraol: You're right. I'll adjust the wording. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 00:36, 3 December 2019 (UTC)

Music score source

Would it be appropriate to add that Guggenheim states that there will be "easter eggs" to music past? There is an implication, if not confirmation, that that will be the case through this source. There is another strongly suggesting that John Williams' Superman score will be used, but that I'm sure is speculation at this time. 162.218.6.223 (talk) 06:39, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

Let's wait for others to comment. Since we heard the theme song from Smallville on Elseworlds, it's certain we'll hear scores as well this time. Kailash29792 (talk) 07:00, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

And there was also the theme from 1990 Flash show, used in Elseworlds and might return in Crisis. I'm sure that was already known, but just adding for written reference. 162.218.6.223 (talk) 20:43, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

I think we can put a broad statement about it currently, and get into the specifics of what those easter eggs are once we know what they are. I'm going to try adding some wording in. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 21:37, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 December 2019

In the guest stars section the page links to singer WILL Wheaton instead of actor WIL Wheaton

This should be corrected Griff (talk) 21:38, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

fixed. Spanneraol (talk) 21:41, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

Titans sourcing

With their appearance in the opening minutes now aired, are we able to use the articles from the reliable sources that initially reported the appearance in the page?--Simmerdon3448 (talk) 01:25, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

Other sources are now available, such as this one. -- /Alex/₂₁ 03:27, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

With these appearances, it should be mentioned somehow that this is just reusing footage from Titans and that they didn't actually film anything for crisis. The Ray appearance likewise is via modified archive footage from the Earth X cross-over. Spanneraol (talk) 14:02, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

@Spanneraol: I felt the same, but I haven't seen any sources confirming this just yet (though I do believe it's accurate). - Favre1fan93 (talk) 19:04, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

Two roles

Hi. I did not check if there is a source yet, but John Constantine and Jonah Hex appear in "Batwoman" trailers. IKhitron (talk) 23:51, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

Constantine’s Batwoman presence is already accounted for in the table--Simmerdon3448 (talk) 00:01, 10 December 2019 (UTC)

The Paragons in Arrow

Is it too Crystal Ball/unsourced to say they’ll be in the Arrow episode? Or Legends? I feel like I have a better chance with Arrow because they’ll pick up from where they were at the end of last episode--Simmerdon3448 (talk) 05:38, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

It is. We need a reliable source that says so. -- /Alex/₂₁ 06:17, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

(sits waiting for the January trailer to get uploaded or embedded to an RS’s article so Speed Force manifestation Oliver can be added to the table)--Simmerdon3448 (talk) 06:46, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

"Speed force manifestation" is not actually a character and shouldn't be added anyway. Spanneraol (talk) 13:45, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

Ray Terrill

Hi. You do no he is from Earth-1, not from Earth-X? IKhitron (talk) 12:06, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

Except he resides on Earth-X. He’s made it his home. Thus the Earth-X designation--Simmerdon3448 (talk) 14:35, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

Yap. And what does it say about the Black Siren that made Earth-1 home? About all kind of Harrison Wells? About Jessy Quick that made Earth-3 home for a long time? About Anti-Monitor, imprisoned on Earth-1? And that Ray Terrill from Earth-X is a completely different person? IKhitron (talk) 15:41, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

The character of The Ray is from Earth-1. It doesn't matter where he resides. He's the Earth-1 version. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 16:49, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

You’re right, you’re right. I’m sorry--Simmerdon3448 (talk) 17:25, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

Poster

New poster. Should we update the poster, as we typically do for season articles when a new poster is released, or stick with the current one? -- /Alex/₂₁ 22:41, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

This is just a poster for people to stream the first three parts (they usually release similar "streaming" posters for the shows as well [3][4]) so I would stick with the current and official broadcast poster. - Brojam (talk) 22:51, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

Related code

What does the code at bottom do? I'm referring to {{#related:Crisis on Infinite Earths}}, {{#related:Elseworlds (Arrowverse)}} and {{#related:Arrowverse}}. --Gonnym (talk) 10:49, 6 December 2019 (UTC)

@Gonnym: Hi. I've inserted it. It's a command for Related Articles extension. The extension shows three most related articles to this one, at the bottom of the mobile view. Until yesterday there were every time other three articles, some of them are random or even irrelevant. The algorithm for peaking these three articles uses the results of CirrusSearch. So, I decided by myself what articles are the most relevant, as I can see it, and overrode the algorithm. IKhitron (talk) 12:39, 6 December 2019 (UTC)

@Gonnym: I was curious too, and found this: mw:Reading/Web/Projects/Related pages. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 21:26, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

User:Alex 21, could you please explain you point of view? Why, for example, "The Flash (season 6)" or "LOT (season 3)" is more related than "Crisis on Infinite Earths" or "Elseworlds"? Thank you. IKhitron (talk) 12:04, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

Alex 21? IKhitron (talk) 01:31, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

Related articles are and should be random with each pageload. (As a sidenote, "The Flash (season 6)" is very related to this crossover.) -- /Alex/₂₁ 05:22, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

I see. Well, I'm sure you're wrong, but I'm not going to fight on this. IKhitron (talk) 11:31, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

"Clark Kent / Superman (Superman Returns)"

Hi. The table says that Brandon Routh's Superman comes from the world of "Superman Returns". Is there a source for that claim? Because four sources in this line do not say this and the fifth says the opposite. And there are a lot of sources in the net that it will be Kingdom Come Superman, not Superman Returns. Thank you. IKhitron (talk) 15:19, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

It's both. The Superman Returns character IS the Kingdom Come Superman in this interpretation. Spanneraol (talk) 16:22, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

Is there a source for that? Because I am certain it is not the same Superman from Superman Returns, independently to sources. And I really do not think that Arrowverse writers are even allowed to kill Lois Lane from the movies. IKhitron (talk) 16:27, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

They aren't using that version of Lois anymore so yea they can refer to her death having happened. They have mentioned that it is the same Superman. "Guggenheim said. “We’re picking up so many years after the events of that movie, maybe a coda is a better word than sequel.”" Spanneraol (talk) 16:37, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

Saw that earlier. so, it's not the same world. Maximum another world with the same prequel. Compare with non-canon parts of John Constantin, the series and three movies. And I'm not talking about using the character, but about copyright. IKhitron (talk) 16:41, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

He doesn't say it's not the same world. Do you know what coda means? It's a caper on that character from that movie. What does copyright have to do with anything? WB owns the copyrights. Spanneraol (talk) 16:47, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

My English is very poor. Do you mean that a caper is "illegal activity", "an amusing movie", or "a prank" (all of these from the network dictionary)? I am sure it's not the last one, "a green flower". I'm talking about the copyright for the comics hero Lois Lane. IKhitron (talk) 17:01, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

Capper... as in "the conclusion of a story". What does the copyright for Lois Lane have to do with anything? Spanneraol (talk) 17:40, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

I see. A pity. I really do not want it will be like that. OK, let's see an example. Sony has copyright on the current Spiderman movie hero. It allows Marvel to use it in MCU movie "Endgame" as cameo. But if Marvel will kill Spiderman during this cameo, Sony will not be able to continue the future movies. So, using the character and killing the character is not the same, if copyright holder of Superman Returns will decide to make a sequel just to find one of his heroes is actually killed. IKhitron (talk) 17:53, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

The copyright holder of Superman Returns is Warner Brothers, they arent making any sequel to Superman Returns as they have done Man of Steel since then. They are the same people who own the tv shows... so its not an issue. Spanneraol (talk) 18:09, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

I see. Thank you. IKhitron (talk) 18:10, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

By the way, does that mean that he is the same Superman and the same world from Superman in film#Christopher Reeve series (1978–1987)? Or just the first two maybe? IKhitron (talk) 18:22, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

Yes. Spanneraol (talk) 18:27, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

All of them, or just the first two? "...serves as an homage sequel to the motion pictures Superman (1978) and Superman II (1980), while ignoring the events of Superman III (1983) and Superman IV: The Quest for Peace (1987), including its spin-off Supergirl (1984)..." IKhitron (talk) 18:29, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

I believe Superman Returns ignored Superman 3 and 4... the status of Supergirl was never specified but they didn't mention her in the film so it's probably not canon either. Spanneraol (talk) 21:50, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

Very well. Thank you for your help and for your time. IKhitron (talk) 22:03, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

Still, I think that these five sources do not say that this is the same Superman. I stongly recommend to add this one to the sources in the article. IKhitron (talk) 23:27, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

Routh's Superman actually mentioned what happened in superman 3: To paraphrase "it's not the first time I've gone nuts and had to fight another version of myself." That is the Red kryptonite plot of the 3rd movie. 85.255.237.141 (talk) 14:28, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

Earth-75 Superman: Another Hoechlin?

Where was this confirmed? It didn’t look like Hoechlin to me in the shot…--Simmerdon3448 (talk) 20:30, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

I've read various reports on who that was.. but It definitely wasn't Tyler.. probably a stand-in. Spanneraol (talk) 21:16, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, which is why it struck me as odd that Superman-75 was in the table--Simmerdon3448 (talk) 21:41, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

Per here, which is in the article, is source for it being Tyler Hoechlin. I'm looking at the photo and I don't think it's not Hoechlin. Spanneraol even if they aren't reliable, who have you read that is, if you don't think it's Hoechlin. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 21:45, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

That source simply says "it looks like the Superman is Tyler Hoechlin".. that's far from a definitive source that it is him. There were sources out there saying it was one of the actors from the Superboy show... I don't necessarily believe that.. I feel it was probably Tyler's double.. but there isn't really a good source. Spanneraol (talk) 21:49, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

Here are three more sources saying this is Hoechlin. This one being the most reliable of the sites, followed by this and then this. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 21:51, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

For my eye it just looks like dead body uncredited stand-in. But I'm not a source. IKhitron (talk) 22:23, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

The fact is that all of these sources are based on the trailer, before the episode premiered, and only rely on the naked eye, without anyone speaking to crew. The sources may usually be reliable, but these are clearly just guesses, and don’t pull from the episode itself. I think it should be removed until it’s favorably clarified--Simmerdon3448 (talk) 22:33, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

I tend to agree. Spanneraol (talk) 23:39, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

I think WP:TRUTH would apply here. We have the sources saying it's Hoechlin, and I haven't come across any saying it's not him. We're just using our analysis in the matter to suggest it might not be him. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 18:22, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

Or WP:FRUIT? IKhitron (talk) 18:58, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

This isn't a FRUIT instance, because at least the Collider source is reliable. FRUIT would be if Collider was stating info that came from an unreliable source. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 19:03, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

This would suggest it's not actually Tyler but his stand in.85.255.237.141 (talk) 14:34, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

Well, this source is enough to remove Hoechlin-75 from the article. IKhitron (talk) 22:02, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Done. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 22:22, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

part 3 - rene and dinah

Should Rene and Dinah be listed for part 3? They both briefly appeared in the flashback to the destruction of earth 2. It was recycled footage from the arrow episode but it's technically still an appearance. Spanneraol (talk) 14:16, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

I would keep the cell grey, and add a note saying it was archive footage from "Welcome to Star City" plus a source. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 16:18, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

In a quick Google search, I wasn't able to find a third party source for them, FWIW. I guess we could use the episode itself to source? - Favre1fan93 (talk) 16:27, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

That works for me. Spanneraol (talk) 21:48, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

Added in. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 22:22, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

redirects

What's the point of adding redirects to the Titans, Bird of Prey or Lucifer characters to non-existent "Arrowverse" articles.. they are the same characters and the extra re-direct seems silly. No one is gonna create an arrowverse article on those characters, nor should they. Spanneraol (talk) 18:46, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

I definitely agree here and it’s a little more than kinda--Simmerdon3448 (talk) 18:48, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

The character redirects I agree with not using these "Arrowverse" ones. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 21:44, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

As per MOS:REDIR, the redirects serve a purpose you might not understand. At the moment they are linking to a specific point, but if in the future that destination changes, for example, an article or new section of article, or a list of characters article is created, the incoming links can be easily redirected to the new destination, whereas if you link to a general link, when that time comes, you have to sift through endless links to find the correct ones. As an example, most Arrowverse character sections in the character's comic article, if they do link to something, more often then not, they don't link to the Arrowverse location. The style of using "(Arrowverse)" for redirects has already been decided and adopted for over a year. I see no reason why this specific article should have different ones. --Gonnym (talk) 22:33, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

That's only if the assumption is that someone will one day write an article about the Arrowverse version of these characters, but there is no reason to write arrowverse articles about the Titans characters for instance based on one second clips from the Titans tv show. Therefore having "Arrowverse" redirects is just stupid. Spanneraol (talk) 17:18, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

You don't need an article for a redirect to be valid. A section can also work. There is nothing to say that an article won't be created about one of the Titan characters and have a section that makes sense to target (and who knows, maybe Titans will officially join the Arrowverse, making the "Arrowverse" redirect, actually the main redirect). Since redirects are cheap and are a standard in these group of articles already, I fail to see why all the fuss. --Gonnym (talk) 17:47, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Because adding extra unnecessary redirects makes things more confusing for readers and makes editing more difficult. It seems like you are just creating these pages to add to your stat totals rather than for some practical purpose. Spanneraol (talk) 19:19, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Please detail how it makes things more confusing for readers and makes editing more difficult. The links take readers where they need to go, and it changes literally nothing about editing. -- /Alex/₂₁ 21:05, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Paragons source

This Cnet source seems to cover the seven paragons in adequate detail—here—but I'm not sure how it would apply in the table. Favre1fan93, since you requested a better source, perhaps you can make use of it. Best of luck! BlueMoonset (talk) 07:00, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

@BlueMoonset: My desire for a better source was for each of the Paragons appearing in the Arrow episode. Right now, the synopsis simply says "the Paragons" so we ultimately need one that says each character name and actor is appearing. We'll get it either with the episode photos when those are released or the reviews/recaps after the episodes air. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 03:55, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

@Favre1fan93: I'd like to point out here that the original source from TV Line that you removed quoted the CW and said "Supergirl, Batwoman and the other Paragons will search for a way to escape the Vanishing Point".. that mentions two of them by name and is pretty clear it refers to all of them. Spanneraol (talk) 14:30, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

@Spanneraol: Sure, but again, it doesn't hurt to ultimately want better, clearer sourcing for them. If this is all we had or know we would have (the TV Line source or the Futon press release), then yeah it'd probably be fine. But even if we'd switch back to the TV Line source for Supergirl and Batwoman, I'd personally still want another that mentions Benoist and Rose in the source. All the other sources in the table, at least for the episodes that have aired, source the actor and character for each episode appearance. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 21:29, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

Gotcha, no objection to adding better sourcing once the episode airs. Spanneraol (talk) 01:25, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

Yup! - Favre1fan93 (talk) 16:32, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

There have now been photos released from the episode that show all these actors, perhaps that source would be a good one to use? Spanneraol (talk) 22:48, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, I've already gone and done that. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 03:27, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

EGG links

Hey @Favre1fan93, I still have an issue with the link, as it's still very much an MOS:EGG link. The text in question is:

"Crisis on Infinite Earths" was first hinted at in the Arrowverse in the pilot episode of The Flash In September 2018, three months before the release of "Elseworlds", the 2018–19 Arrowverse crossover, Legends of Tomorrow executive producer Phil Klemmer said the 2019–20 crossover was already being discussed, with it already having "a loose shape".

The text above is what is currently there and uses the two instances of links to the US network schedule where it makes no sense. Both uses: three months before the release of "Elseworlds", the 2018–19 Arrowverse crossover and Phil Klemmer said the 2019–20 crossover was already being discussed give no hint that the link is for something completely unrelated. In the text above, the link should either be removed, or if the link to the US television schedule is needed, it should actually be used as the text itself. --Gonnym (talk) 18:12, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

@Gonnym: With simply the years linked (as they are), I don't think it is a surprise to end up at an article highlighting the television schedule for those years. (I originally had 2019-20 linked with "crossover" and that I can see as an EGG.) The 2019-20 link could be outright removed and changed to Phil Klemmer said the next crossover was already being discussed, I'd be fine doing that. For the Elseworlds one, it could change to simply three months before the release of the Arrowverse crossover Elseworlds because we have "September 2018" at the start of the sentence. But I feel the 2018-19 years and link provides better time/television season context, so I'm more inclined to try to keep that. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 19:31, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

I'd prefer we find a way to add the actual text of the link if it's needed. Maybe something along the lines of Phil Klemmer said the next crossover, which was planned to air on the 2019–20 United States network television schedule, was already being discussed. It's a bit more wordy but much more clear what link you get. --Gonnym (talk) 23:02, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

As I said in my first reply, I think we can get rid of the second instance. So how about this then for the first: In September 2018, three months before the release of "Elseworlds", the Arrowverse crossover in the 2018–19 television season, Legends of Tomorrow executive producer Phil Klemmer said the next crossover was already being discussed, with it already having "a loose shape". Also, I think my pipe text of "2018–19 television season" is acceptable, as I've used similar ones previously with no issue so it is descriptive and not an EGG, but not the entire article name. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 15:36, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

@Gonnym: would you be okay if I implement the version in my last comment above? - Favre1fan93 (talk) 15:55, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

Yes, sorry. I didnt see your reply. Looks good to me. Gonnym (talk) 16:26, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

No problem! - Favre1fan93 (talk) 16:28, 10 April 2020 (UTC)