Talk:Cults, Aberdeen

Article needs to clearly state western terminus of cults

Hadrianheugh 00:04, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

It's not in Aberdeenshire - it's within the boundaries of Aberdeen City

Unless I'm mistaken, this article is at the wrong title and should be moved to Cults, Aberdeen.--h i s ^{s p a c e} _{r e s e a r c h} 18:25, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Where should cult articles go?

I submitted an article stub on the Multiplicants and planned to enter another on the Lothardi. But the Multiplicants one was deleted due to insufficient data. I figured I'd combine them into a single page, but wasn't sure where to go with it.

Ideas or suggestions? This page cults looked reasonable, but the content didn't quite match.

Nodosaurus (talk) 18:53, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Village or Suburb

The only reference on this page (to the CBM community council) says "Cults, Bieldside and Milltimber are three villages within Aberdeen City". Unless there is another source stating the opposite, this page should say that Cults is a village, not a suburb. I'm not making this edit directly because it was recently undone and I don't want to start an edit war. BWDuncan (talk) 14:54, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

It was I who reverted the change. The description of Cults as a "suburb" has been in this article for 16 years without anyone questioning it, so to change it to "village" without any apparent discussion seemed inappropriate. I noticed that the same editor also changed "suburb" to "village" in the articles on Milltimber, Peterculter and Kingswells, though not Bieldside or any number of other suburbs that could claim village status, if such a thing existed. I will quote here what I said in reply to that editor:

“ Cults, Milltimber and Peterculter, like so many other suburbs of Aberdeen, were once separate villages, but have long ago been absorbed into the expanding built-up area of the city. Whilst you will still see the word "village" used by shops and estate agents to create an air of desirability based on nostalgia, "suburb" is a much more accurate description suitable for Wikipedia, which is supposed to be an encyclopedia, not a promotional guide. Next time you drive (or take the bus) along North Deeside Road from the city through Cults, Bieldside and Milltimber to Culter, take note of how you never leave the built-up area, and that the speed limit remains 30mph the whole way. The odd patch of parkland doesn't count as rural. In the Kingswells direction the situation is slightly different. The speed limit becomes 40mph from Hazlehead, but there's still no rural separation. Kingswells comprises modern housing developments, industrial estates, business parks, the new football stadium development, all much better characterised as "suburban" than "village". If anywhere within Aberdeen could be described as a village it would be places like Balgownie, Footdee/Fittie, Torry and Cove Bay, places that still have a distinct sense of their own identity, but these too have become part of the wider conurbation and are still better described as suburbs. I would point out to you that whoever wrote these articles in the first place no doubt carefully chose their descriptive words, and it is unwise to come along at this late stage and arbitrarily change a few of them without consensus. ”

The term "village", though widely used, has no formal definition as far as I am aware in Scotland; nor does "suburb". The only terms that are defined for Scotland are, I believe, "city", "town", "settlement" and "locality". Wikipedia tends to use the term "populated place" in categorisation, which seems a suitably neutral abstraction. It follows that use of terms such as "village" and "suburb" will be subjective and non-exclusive – if we decide to characterise Cults as a village that doesn't mean it isn't still a suburb. To me "village" suggests somewhere rural, not part of a city conurbation, though of course there is also the modern concept of an "urban village". I would be interested to hear the thoughts and opinions of others with a view to establishing a consensus before we decide whether or not to make any change. --188.28.158.163 (talk) 15:55, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

See further discussion and the sources at User talk:188.28.158.163#Villages that call them villages while at the same time using "suburb" for Mannofield. (To 188.28.158.163) If you think that the types of settlement categories aren't clearly defined then maybe you should start a WP:CFD for all the Scottish village categories which would get views from others. Note that every council area other than Dundee (of which only appears to have 1 hamlet Benvie which doesn't exist yet) has a "Villages in" category even Glasgow. Note that Kingswells, Milltimber and Peterculter are census localities[1]. Although the content may have been stable it can still be changed if incorrect see WP:CONTENTAGE since I have now provided a source for them being villages (which I will add to the articles if the change is made) can you provide a source for them being suburbs? Crouch, Swale (talk) 19:42, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

You know, I think maybe the Aberdeen Solicitors' Property Centre has the right kind of approach, even though it is trying to sell houses. I think we could model our wording on what they do, acknowledging that suburb vs. village is not a hard and fast exclusive divide. Here's what they have to say about these North Deeside Road settlements:

“ Cults is an attractive and popular suburb of Aberdeen, conveniently located just a few miles west of the city centre. Situated on the banks of the River Dee and surrounded by beautiful countryside, Cults also retains a village feel and boasts a number of green spaces despite its close proximity to the city. ”

“ Bieldside is a leafy, residential suburb of Aberdeen, situated approximately six miles to the west of the city centre on the route to Royal Deeside. Formerly a village on the outskirts of Aberdeen, Bieldside is part of the City area but is set against the backdrop of the rolling countryside in the River Dee valley. ”

“ Milltimber is an attractive village situated between Peterculter and Bieldside in the Lower Deeside area, to the west of Aberdeen. The village is well placed for commuting on the A93 road and offers easy access to Aberdeen by car or public transport, with regular services to Aberdeen city centre. ”

“ Peterculter is an attractive and popular residential area located around 9 miles west of Aberdeen city centre, on the northern banks of the River Dee. The most westerly suburb of Aberdeen, Peterculter retains a strong village identity. ”

Above quotes are taken from https://www.aspc.co.uk/information/local-areas/ --188.28.158.163 (talk) 21:31, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

Of course I don't mean that we should use their picturesque language, but we could use a phrase like "a suburb that retains some of the character of a village". --188.28.158.163 (talk) 22:10, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

That's interesting even though ASPC is selling houses it does mainly describe them as suburbs. A source selling houses would probably be more likely to use village (or suburban village) since people are more likely to go there than if its described as a suburb. Turning to other sources although some such as the BBC do call it a suburb per WP:CONTEXTMATTERS the BBC might not be incredibly reliable for the type of settlement (as opposed to the other facts about the crime reported). But other sources and its website do call it a village. Even though some sources do call it a suburb I still think among strong ones village is more common/correct. If we don't agree to use village then we could put the articles in Category:Populated places in Aberdeen. Crouch, Swale (talk) 08:16, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

OK, I have restored the text (with a source) and category since there hasn't been any more discussion here, 188.28.158.163 if you think that they shouldn't be in this category, please start a CFD, thanks. Crouch, Swale (talk) 16:23, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

Please read WP:BRD. If you make a bold change and it is reverted, you should discuss to reach consensus, not just repeat the change. --188.29.214.96 (talk) 18:10, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

That's what I've done already, you didn't object further for around 3 weeks (and someone else also agrees with calling them villages). See Wikipedia talk:Categories for discussion#Wikipedia talk:Categories for discussion if you want to remove them please start a CFD to delete the category. In this case its not really a big deal if the 4 articles are at the "wrong" version for a week or 2 while the CFD is in progress. Could you please self revert and start a CFD if you think the village description is incorrect, thanks. Crouch, Swale (talk) 18:17, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

The important thing is that if there is dispute about a change the articles should remain in their long-established state, i.e. before the contentious change, until a resolution can be found. --188.29.214.96 (talk) 18:20, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

Yes that's generally the case but as noted on the CFD talk page that might not be the case. I suppose you could just start the CFD while the category is empty since I can list the villages that I think should be included. Crouch, Swale (talk) 18:25, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

OK, I've re added the category only, that is to say without changing the text from suburb to village or removing Category:Areas of Aberdeen, please start the CFD to delete the category, if it stays we then need to see about changing the text and removing the areas category. Crouch, Swale (talk) 21:55, 15 August 2020 (UTC)