Talk:Cunedda

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to navigation Jump to search

Text was pasted from http://www.britannia.com/bios/ebk/cunedwgd.html (Copyright violation text removed)

Dating[edit]

Your dates for Cunedda contradict my sources (Frere, Salway), where do they come from? I changed the date of Roman withdrawal as it was Honorius who wrote the letter in 410, three years after the troops left. I added Frere's description of Paternus as native chief rather than a Roman soldier. I rewrote and rearranged the dating arguments so I hope they make more sense. Non-US spelling for non-US subject. I think I kept all the earlier points too. adamsan 01:08, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Ah, thanks for the Constantine/Honorius correction. I probably should have caught that one, myself. I think I may not have been clear in my previous entry, though: I wasn't suggesting that it was Maximus who ordered Cunedda into Wales (although others have done so, the dating is dubious at best: most sources have Maximus dead a good decade before Cunedda's birth!). My dates come from Mike Ashley's "The Mammoth Book of British Kings and Queens," but the difference isn't that great, and it might just be an issue of Ashley rounding up. I rewrote the entry again, to clarify my earlier meaning, and have tried to clarify the tangle of dating issues surrounding the topic. Hope it makes more sense, now. Seancdaug 05:41, Nov 13, 2004 (UTC)

kunodagos is not Brythonic[edit]

I am interested in the source for the opening sentence to this page: "The name Cunedda derives from the Brythonic word kunodagos, meaning good hound."

I am not a native speaker of Welsh but I can say with certainty that the letter K does not exist in the Brythonic language, therefore it is not possible that the word kunodagos derives from it. <ref> Collins Spurrell Welsh-English/ Saesneg-Cymraeg Dictionary, 1991</ref> That is not to say that the meaning is incorrect but merely that the derivation has to have been from a different linguistic origin. The letter k does appear in at least one Goidelic Gaelic languages and was used in English names replacing earlier ones of the Romano-British period - Cunetio fluvius is the River Kennett, and the name Kenneth (which if written by a Welshman from sound alone would probably be rendered Cunedd). If you have a verifiable authority then I am perfectly willing to accept it, but until then I have to say that it seems quite wrong to me. SouthernFrog (talk) 01:00, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Actually the letter K did exist in Welsh until the first printing of the New Testament, when the translator ordered "C for K, because the printers have not so many as the Welsh requireth'"<ref>[http://demo.ort.org.il/clickit2/files/forums/471389549/948358249.pdf English and Welsh], an essay by [[J. R. R. Tolkien]]</ref> -- Arwel Parry (talk) 19:22, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
Actually, SoFro was right. What written Bryth there is got literacy w/Roman influence and almost universally depreciated k in favor of c. K snuck back into Welsh later.
Of course, the sound was the same throughout and it was /k/ and never the soft c people might mistaken use. For that reason Proto-Celtic is generally written with a /k/ and SoFro's cite might either refer to a legitimate Proto-Celtic reconstruction or somebody's reconstruction of a Bryth word using a modern English orthography.
It's no reason to throw out the word: Proto-Celt *kū and Bryth do mean "doggy". Of course, we should have a cite that it's appropriately used here.  — LlywelynII 23:06, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

Where do you get the "good dog" etymology? The general consensus of linguists is that the etymology of his name is "good chief" or "good Lord" which makes far more sense: see: Archaeologia Cambrensis s x 4th Series No.XII Oct. 1872 p37;(Lloyd) DICT OF WELSH BIOGRAPHY,"Cunedda"(Accessable both via National Library of Wales & the Honorable Order of Cymmrodorions websites). Also, if you cite a specific scholar's opinion, I really would like that cited in a footnote so I can track it down. For example, I don't doubt that Dumville summarily dismisses the deployment of Cunedda's folk to northern Wales since it goes against his apriori assumptions, but I'd like to know where he said that, if only to refute it. CKC.11/13/2017.

Try reading a book/article on the subject written in the past century!! The notion that the initial element is "lord/chief" has long since been debunked. "Good-hound/warrior" (Brittonic *cuno- "hound, warrior" + *dago- "good") is absolutely the consensus interpretation of the name among modern linguists. Cagwinn (talk) 05:06, 13 November 2017 (UTC)