Talk:David Frost, Baron Frost

Top Brexit negotiator

The article does not mention this person is top brexit negotiator. Shouldn't that be explicit somehow? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:1811:140D:3400:D552:B431:736:E5F5 (talk) 00:06, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

Addition of "unelected"

There have been multiple attempts to add the word "unelected" and explicitly, to stress the undemocratic nature of David Frost's position as a member of the British cabinet. These have been reverted, and on Wikipedia, that is the time those people who want to add this to the lead should come to the talkpage to justify the inclusion according to policy, rather than edit war.

For my own part, my objection has absolutely nothing whatsoever with my personal view of the role of the House of Lords in the British political system. My objection is that Wikipedia is not the place for people to act out their politics. Please read WP:NPOV, and for that matter, WP:CIVIL. Unless there has been a very big thing made specifically of the nature of David Frost's appointment as a Life Peer and subsequent inclusion in cabinet as undemocratic in reliable sources, it doesn't belong in the lead, and even if it were, not in the first descriptor sentence. On the other hand, if editors have a general interest in documenting criticism of Life Peers' presence in government and the legislature, I would say that Reform of the House of Lords looks like a good place to start, particularly the section Reasons for reform, which to me looks threadbare given how much has been written in criticism of the House of Lords.OsFish (talk) 02:13, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Infobox honorific

@2a02:c7f:b416:3000:3135:31e9:287b:ed1b, @Präziser - you're engaged in ping pong over 'The' vs 'The Right Honourable' in the infobox, could we discuss here instead please? Happy to help facilitate a discussion. Best, Darren-M talk 14:25, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

I clearly can't distinguish between different users that start with p. Sorry, Präziser! Best, Darren-M talk 14:28, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

'The Right Honourable'

Continuous attempts have been made to remove 'The Right Honourable' prefix from this article. I see no reason for this. It is the perfectly normal standard that all Peers have these such titles in their infoboxes and whoever is seeking to remove them should say why; the only explanation I have seen is that somehow when the prefix 'The' (which had also been removed multiple times then reinstated) is referenced before the Lord's title, that this automatically refers to them being Right Honourable. I have never heard this bizzare explanation used before and the tons of other articles of all Lords say different. Multiple users from non-UK countries are usually the culprit. The Right Honourable is the standard form of ALL articles relating to Peers and should not be removed without consensus and explanation.2A02:C7F:B416:3000:3135:31E9:287B:ED1B (talk) 14:30, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

Hatnote to other Davids Frost

Hi, OsFish. Regarding Special:Diff/1204831916, I had removed the hatnote because the title is not ambiguous: there aren't any other barons called David Frost to my knowledge, so it's very unlikely that someone will arrive at this article while looking for another David Frost. Sdrqaz (talk) 12:51, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

That assumes the reader arrives searching for Baron Frost or in the knowledge that the David Frost they want is a noble. We should instead be helpful to all those readers who are looking for a notable David Frost, don't know if the one they want is the one that was ennobled, may be unfamiliar with the UK's honour system and unable to use it distinguish between Baron Frost and Sir David Frost, or may guess that their David Frost would be a likely candidate for ennoblement. NebY (talk) 13:32, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Yes, this is my thinking: the user’s point of view. Even with some prior knowledge, users might not be sure. Baronies can be acquired during one’s life (as here). Also, Baron Frost is referred to as “Lord Frost” in the media. If you asked them for Lord Frost’s title, a lot would not know. Baron Frost for most of his public life was David Frost. If you asked Britons whether David Frost the TV presenter was elevated to a Baron towards the end of his life, a lot might not be sure. It’s also worth pointing out that British people are typically not taught in schools how any of this works. OsFish (talk) 22:25, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

(Sorry for the late reply; had written half a response but didn't send it ...) While I don't doubt that this argument in favour of the hatnote was done while thinking about the reader, it conflicts too much with WP:NOTAMB. I think it would be reasonable to have a hatnote if Lord Frost also had a knighthood (so could be called Sir David Frost in some contexts), but he doesn't have one. People rarely "give" peerages to people who have other honours (people do not mistakenly refer to Winston Churchill and Alex Ferguson as Lords Churchill and Ferguson, for example).

Most readers searching for a "David Frost" search just that: David Frost. They then go on from there, instead of giving people peerages. The broadcaster has primary topic status and is located at the simplest form of the name (just "David Frost"), so the chances of this politician being confused with him are very very low. Sdrqaz (talk) 14:33, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

As per WP:NOTAMB, we need also to consider "A reader who is following links within Wikipedia". Pages linking to this page appear often to list him as plain "David Frost". For example, in the widely used infobox of "Special advisors to the British government", he's listed as "David Frost". In Metrication in the United Kingdom, Conservative Party Conference, Fish for finance and others, the link is "David Frost". That is, people end up on the page having clicked "David Frost". In all cases, David Frost is a person with some connection to politics and in a British context. That is, it isn't like the examples of water (wuxing) being confused with water, which are categorically different. My problem with the argument that the reader will know that this isn't the other David Frost is that I honestly don't think the premise will hold true for all readers. Celebrity is converted into political position often enough; it would be an understandable error. OsFish (talk) 03:06, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

We can't assume that our readers are people who are habituated to the UK honours system and that People rarely "give" peerages to people who have other honours (people do not mistakenly refer to Winston Churchill and Alex Ferguson as Lords Churchill and Ferguson, for example) is true of them. They may well not know when to call the English milord My Lord and when to call him mister, let alone that you don't call a Baron Sir or that you write Lord Frost when you mean David Frost, Baron Frost. NebY (talk) 07:41, 2 May 2024 (UTC)