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Hello Scott I write because I think the definition of deschooling is too narrow. The Idea I've had for 30 years is that schooling inevitably is a process of indoctrination. Ilich strived for an ideal which would avoid that. Neither he nor his followers have found a satisfactory alternative to schools. Home schooling is often more doctrinaire not less.

I think the concept of deschooling is useful and valid for adults, probably many years later in mid life. It's the unbundling of your original indoctrination, and re-thinking independent positions for yourself. A process that takes about 10 years if you are lucky. For adults much new learning involves some unlearning. I'm a dancer. Unlearning old habits is a long difficult task.

Deschooling yourself, examining your own indoctrination is difficult in the same way, because we can't "see it". It's part of us, sort of built in, and invisible.

```` —Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnsveitch (talkcontribs) 12:01, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Hello Jonsveitch, I really appreciate your comments and the creation of this article as well. I strongly agree that deschooling is a concept for adults as well as children, and that it's important that the emphasis be on deschooling of _persons and thinking_ rather than on treatment of children solely. I base this statement on my own experience, and see that you have had a similar experience, but I can cite F. M. Alexander, who constantly reiterated that non-doing is more effective than doing, and that education in present Western society (he lived until 1950) induced rampant, dysfunctional "doing" and bad use of the self (The Use of the Self, F. M. Alexander). Also, SEMCO, a company in Brazil, which got rid of its rules, essentially, with the influence of a manager who had formerly been an educator at Summerhill (the free school in England and closest in essence to unschooling). The importance of deschooling as a concept, not simply a practice, is what I think needs to be addressed in this article more, since the question of "How do we educate children?" is a distraction from the more important question, "How do I thoroughly un-delude myself, both for my own happiness and sanity and also to avoid passing on falsehoods to others or misusing power over them for invalid reasons?"[[[User:Anonymous unschooler|Anonymous unschooler]] (talk) 16:34, 17 June 2010 (UTC)]
As for the statement that "neither he nor his followers have found a satisfactory alternative to schools"--I think this is true to a degree, but it seems to imply that the alternative cannot be found simply because it hasn't been found yet. But of course, many things have been discovered that previously hadn't been in existence, such as the tungsten filament light bulb for example, and what there are in the meantime for learning are alternatives that, while not ideal, are better than the low standard set by formal schooling. In the future, there may be total integration of learning in life, and it may simply take time to develop a better model. Or, for the health of the general community to become great enough that the easy abuse of power over children ceases to look like an acceptable practice. It could be argued that no alternatives have been given a fully fair trial yet, since to give a fully fair trial to any system of education, you'd have to make it possible for the child to feel that her/his schooling is completely normal within the whole nation; otherwise there is an uncontrolled variable in the experiment, namely that an unschooler or free-schooler feels different and is somewhat out of place in the larger society. (In spite of this Sudbury Valley Schools and homeschoolers and unschoolers have all demonstrated greater intellectual preparedness and social adjustment than their public school peers in many cases and in surveys). The availability of information through the Internet today makes it possible for anyone who can read and get on line to get a rich education on many subjects. It's far easier than when you had to look up information in a library only, and the time delay between a desire to know something and an answer was greater. The publishing of information is far more accessible also, so that many more viewpoints are represented on the Internet than previously. Lastly, however, alternatives to schooling have existed for longer than schools, much longer, and still exist today; in the few remaining, undisturbed indigenous communities in the world there can be seen integrated education and initiation, allowing children full development and an absence of indoctrination through the form or content of any school (see Some, Malidoma Patrice, _Of Water and the Spirit_). [[[User:Anonymous unschooler|Anonymous unschooler]] (talk) 16:34, 17 June 2010 (UTC)]


"Unforunately, neither Illich nor his followers have offered any real alternatives to schools"

"Among those who disagree with formal schooling, for whatever reasons, it refers to a supposed mental process a person goes through after being removed from a formal schooling environment, when the so-called "school mindset" is countered. No real explanation of this "mindset" nor the effects or results of such a process have been described"

Both of these are false and blatantly POV, if you ask me. Unschooling, deschooling, homeschooling, and so on are the alternatives offered; saying no alternatives to traditional schooling are offered by alternative schooling proponents in this article is like saying in an article on Communism that communists presented no alternative to capitalism.

I'm going to remove the passages for now. If anyone cares to defend them I'd like to hear the reasoning. 03:44, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

I've reverted the second paragraph several times in the last year or so. I wrote it originally, but someone keeps inserting their own POV into it. I've now reverted it again. If anyone has a problem with it, could they please bring it up on the talk page? -- Scott e 07:52, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for taking care of this article, Scott, and editing out a strongly opinionated edit. What would make the article even stronger would be addressing these points of view, and acknowledging that this is what critics have stated (if they can find citations). Perhaps a description of what the "school mindset" consists of.
Found a citation for an alternative to school proposed by Illich:
"The most radical alternative to school would be a network or service which gave each man the same opportunity to share his current concern with others motivated by the same concern." --Deschooling Society, p.
(Why hasn't this been implemented??? Meetups are about the closest thing, and they're a long way away from this. He wrote this in 1971!)
As a brainstorm I suggest the school mindset is "the superstition that an authority outside the self knows better than oneself what is in one's best interest, in the area of one's thinking, acquisition of information, and structuring of one's time".
As for the alternatives suggested, the context needs to be looked at, and the unlevel playing field for traditional and new schools. A "school" which is fully integrated into life, family, and community and respects the personhood of the children "attending" it would be an ideal and real, effective alternative, even if no one has managed to pull it off yet in modern society. As you say, a Sudbury school or unschooling are the alternatives proposed, but they haven't had a fully impartial trial yet.[[[User:Anonymous unschooler|Anonymous unschooler]] (talk) 16:54, 17 June 2010 (UTC)]

Also it seems that the ideas of such thinkers as Dewey and Alexander of the vastly greater importance of experience in learning would be a valuable a adjunct to the source cited, Illich, even if they didn't use the term "de-schooling" , since they wrote about the identical concept. I don't have citations at the moment.[[[User:Anonymous unschooler|Anonymous unschooler]] (talk) 16:54, 17 June 2010 (UTC)]