Talk:Die güldne Sonne voll Freud und Wonne/GA2

GA Review

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

Reviewer: Amitchell125 (talk · contribs) 09:43, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

I'm reviewing this article.

Review

Lead/infobox

• Melody by… in the infobox shouldn’t have just one name. Amend to reflect that other tunes have been written.

  Not sure. The Zahn number only applies to the Ebeling melody. --GA

The article contains information about more than one melody, shouldn't it be clear in the infobox that this is the case? - AM

I'd not know how as long as we have that Zahn number thingy. Other melody, other Zahn number, or none. FS added it to the ibox. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:13, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

I would say none. - AM

Zahn removed, other composers with names added (no idea though what unlinked names help at that point, and there 2 more melodies mentioned without an author). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:11, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

• Who was Johann Sebastian Bach?

  I think most readers arriving at that point will know, and others can click on the link. I won't like to enter discussions about nationality and style at this point, and as he only possibly provided a bass line, it might be undue weight. --GA

This may be the case, but I don't think we can assume it. - AM

Those can follow the link a link. What would you say? "German composer"? - There was no Germany at the time. Baroque composer? He is known for not being the standard Baroque composer. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:13, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

He was a 'German composer of the Baroque period' (There were Germans before the state of Germany was created) (see for instance) - AM

I don't even say so in featured articles about his works (see BWV 1). For this hymn, he didn't even write a melody, only a bass line, not even for the most prominent melody but a secondary one, and it's only attributed. Undue weight. (... and also: The only real nation is humanity. We don't say that Gerhardt is German, nor Ebeling. The action is in Berlin, German enough.)

Understood - AM

• Amend is also Johann Anastasius Freylinghausen's to something like ‘is one by Johann Anastasius Freylinghausen’.

  yes --GA

• This tune was adopted – ‘It was included’?

  yes --GA

• Consider amending Ebeling's melody, however, remained to ‘Ebeling's melody has remained’. I would end the lead section with this sentence.

  yes --GA

More to follow. Amitchell125 (talk) 16:09, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Thank you! - There should be more about the theme in both article and lead, eventually. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:24, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

1 Context

• This section seems to be a bit overloaded with details that don’t really provide relevant contextual information: a year after the end of the Thirty Years' War; In Februari 1666 Gerhardt had to step down, temporarily, as pastor of the Nikolaikirche; in Frankfurt an der Oder; before the outbreak of the Thirty Years' War; In 1667 Gerhardt briefly returned as pastor of the Nikolaikirche.

  I trimmed it a bit, but think that 30 years war context is needed for readers who don't associate with a year it without mentioning. Many readers will know Crüger as melody writer for Gerhardt, so explaining ow come this hymn is set be Ebeling makes sense to me, also that his career was broken at the time. --GA

I think the issue I have is the the reference to the Thirty Years' War doesn't seem to be connected in any way with the article. If it is, the connection needs to be made clear. To many British readers, the war may be unknown (it hasn't been taught about in schools for many years), and this may be true for readers from other countries as well. - AM

I think everybody will understand by the name of this war how horrendous it was, and how much it therefore shaped the lives of those who lived under it. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:16, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

N Understood, but readers unfamiliar with the history of the period might not know why the war it is being mentioned at all, and why this war in particular. My apologies if i am not making myself clear here.- AM

We can drop it, but it did influence Gerhardt. Close to midnight, I should probable not edit ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:54, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

I'll leave that one with you. - AM

• Link hymns, pastor, hymnal.

  well, yes if you say so --GA

• Add appropriate links to the caption in the top image.

  done --GA

• Februari - 'February'.

  it happens, yes --GA

• The two large images that dominate this section are historically interesting, but at their current size they cannot be read, and have to see at maximum resolution in WikiCommons to become legible. They need to be reduced to thumb size and put alongside the article text.

  a FS special - I don't understand "cannot be read", because I can read them that size, but not when smaller - where is the need to show them at a size when they can't be read? --GA

• Who were Johann Crüger, Johann Georg Ebeling, Johann Arndt, Christoph Runge and Paul Gerhardt? These people need to be introduced.

  Crüger is introduced as someone publishing hymns, Gerhardt as writing them. Then (because of the chronology) you learn that Crüger was the church musician at a large church in Berlin, and Gerhardt - much younger - became pastor there. Next: Crüger dies, Ebeling succeeds him. Gerhardt bases writing on Johann Arndt's writing, and the character of that writing follows. Runge is the publisher. I thought that was clear. What not. --GA

Understood. - AM

• Crüger died in 1662, and as cantor of the Nikolaikirch - and as cantor of the Nikolaikirch is not needed.

  that happened with the trimming --GA

• started to publish – 'began publishing' sounds better imo.

  taken --GA

• of that series is not needed.

  fine --GA

• Copy edit:
  • the Praxis pietatis melica, that is the hymnal published by Crüger to something like 'By 1661, the hymnal Praxis pietatis melica, published by Crüger, contained 90 hymns by Gerhardt'.

    done differently with the trimming, please check --GA

  • Crüger was cantor of the Nikolaikirche in Berlin since 1622... to something like ‘Crüger, who had become cantor of Berlin’s Nikolaikirche in 1622, was succeeded by Gerhardt in 1657.

    better not, they had different positions, working together at the church from 1957 to Crüger's death, when Ebeling succeeded Crüger --GA

  • Specific for both authors is that they talk about religion to something like 'Both men considered religion’.

    taken --GA

  • Their writings are characterised as devotional, and are in that sense seen as step-stones towards Pietism to something like ‘Their writings were devotional, and can be regarded as step-stones towards Pietism’.

    taken, and dropped timing of Pietism once there - who cares when Pietism began? --GA

  • 112 of these settings, including that of "Die güldne Sonne", were based to ‘Of these settings, 112 were based’ to avoid starting the sentence with a number (and including duplicated information).

    trimmed a lot, please check --GA

  • was complete in 1667, soon followed to something like ‘was completed in 1667, and was soon followed’.

    yes --GA

• From Gerhardt's "Die güldne Sonne voll Freud und Wonne" follows to the header "Morgen-Segen" (Morning–blessing):, and the images that follow - it seems to me that the text/images are in the wrong section.

  no sure --GA

• totals  - ‘contains’?

  "comprises"? --GA

  Having slept over the whole thing, I trimmed further, - had to give up chronology but think it makes more sense to begin with a person directly involved, Gerhardt the author, even if he came later, and reflect Arndt's influence before talking about publication. I split the image gallery, one where publication is mentioned, and another with the text, but still think they should be large, or remain decorative. I find it interesting that two of the four parts were given with the first stanzas, and the other two with no. 1 and the later stanzas. I hope that comes across even when at different locations. - Some of my previous answers may now make no more sense, but perhaps just look at the whole thing. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:06, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

More to follow. Amitchell125 (talk) 06:47, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

2 Text

• Link stanza; synonyms; alliteration.

  yes --GA

• Unbold the headings ‘rhyme scheme’ and ‘hymn meter’.

  yes, I would with with pleasure, but don't know how, and FS can't tell us - the first column in such table is bold. Removing at least the links. --GA

Line	1–2	3–4	5	6–7	8–9	10
rhyme scheme	aa	bb	c	dd	ee	c
hymn meter	5.5.	5.5.	10.	5.6.	5.5.	10.

works imo. What do you think? - AM

taken, although I am not so happy about the dividing lines in it. 1-5 is one sentence, 6-10 is one sentence, and both are quite similar in structure, which is hard to see in both versions, but I'd not know how to show. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:30, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

Line	1–2	3–4	5	6–7	8–9	10
rhyme scheme	aa	bb	c	dd	ee	c
hymn meter	5.5.	5.5.	10.	5.6.	5.5.	10.

How about this? (any colours possible) - AM

Thank you for trying, but I like it better without colour. If colour, not red or green (for the colour-blind). The really blind will have a hard time. Need sleep ... --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:15, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

As you wish. - AM

• Who is Theodore Brown Hewitt?

  I don't have the slightest idea. FS country. --GA

  Please include 'the author and academic' (see his biographical details here) - AM

  Isn't anybody who writes an author (so meaning nothing in terms of weight?) What precisely is an academic, and what does it add to understanding the hymn? - I tried something different, please check. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:30, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

Understood, but he was professional author and academic. I think what you have put is fine. - AM

• Avoid a.k.a..

  yes, with pleasure --GA

• (droning of the sea and howling of the wind) – this needs to be in a similar style to the other translations.

  I wonder if we need it at all, because there's no assonance in English, - at this point we talk about sound not meaning. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:44, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

Agreed. - AM

2.1 Translations

• by E. Massie - 'by Massie'. There are similar examples throughout the article, which be amended to remove the abbreviated first name, or the first name in full.

  I don't agree. We have to distinguish Richard and Edward, and saying R. and E. seems the easiest way. We use J. S. Bach and W. A. Mozart a lot, - why not E. Massie? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:01, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

Understood. - AM

• these versions – amend to 'two versions'?

  yes --GA

• I would replace , that is with a dash (minor point).

  I tried something else --GA

• Link meter.

  I had done that in the previous section --GA

Understood. - AM

• singable is not encyclopaedic. I suggest replacing the phrase with something like ‘an English-language version that follows the original meter closely’.

  I tried something else --GA

• 8—12 – wrong dash?

  dashes and I live in different worlds ;) --GA

• By then – I’m not what you mean here.

  The whole paragraph seems to have arrived there by a copy error, - probably mine, sorry. --GA

• v was first published – typo?

  part of that para --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:01, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

3 Reception

• This section doesn’t work for me at all, and I’m not sure why it’s in the article, all though the concluding sentence seems fine.

  That section is FS's baby, and the reason why I withdrew the last nomination. For now I'll park the last sentence in history. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:17, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

4 Hymn tunes and settings

• Link Freylinghausen (with his full name). The sentence seems to leap out of nowhere, several lines before the subsection about him.

  That sentence is gone. --GA

• dance-like connotations – The connotations weren’t dance like, so copy edit had dance-like connotations to something like ‘were associated with dance music’.

  That sentence is also gone. I read the source differently. It deals with Bach's time (18th century), so "originally" has nothing to do with Gerhardt's (17th). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:37, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

• A 21st-century interpretation - by whom?

  A named but unfamous theologian in a radio broadcast. I used her much more in previous versions, about the meaning. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:37, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

• Consider amending so that these begin to float to ‘so that they seemed to float’.

  But it happens every time you sing it, not something in a past. - I just dropped the half-sentence. --GA

4.1 Ebeling

• Remove SATB (dup link).
• Copy edit According to Koch, this hymn tune, that is the soprano's melody of the original setting, makes the hymn more suitable for singing in a small gathering at home, than for public performance in church To something like 'According to Koch, the soprano line of Ebeling’s original hymn tune makes the hymn more suitable for singing together in the home rather than as a church performance’.

  no, after we dropped his dated interpretation ("Reception"), we drop his thoughts about the music as well. --GA

• This author nonetheless relates of a performance during a church service at Easter Monday where he was deeply touched by a rendering of the hymn - makes very little sense to me. Could it be rephrased?

  same --GA

• in F major is imo not necessary.

  agree --GA

• Imo it’s not clear to readers why the bold text in (Aber nun steh ich) is significant unless they read on. I think it needs to be more obvious what you are implying here.

  It's tricky, perhaps too difficult. We can do without it (that women's interpretation, the same mentioned above, 21st century), or could you say it better? She noted the similarity of the German words of "aufstehen" (getting up in the morning) and "auferstehen" (Jesus on Easter morning, "resurrection" in English, no similarity in English). --GA

OK, let's keep it in. - AM

• Copy edit Kirschbaum thinks that Gerhardt and Ebeling, more than just depicting the rising of the sun, thus rather refer to the resurrection (Auferstehung) of Christ to (perhaps) ‘In Kirschbaum’s opinion, Gerhardt and Ebeling use the rising of the sun as a reference to Christ’s resurrection’.

  yes, but without the closeness of the two words - as explained just above - that's far-fetched. --GA

Understood, but interestingly, in English there is a correlation (almost a pun) between the 'rising of the sun' and Christ's resurrection—'the rising of the Son' (i.e. Jesus). Does this happen in German as well? - AM

• Who is Klaus Mertens?

  You should read DYK more ;) - He is a singer who recorded all music Bach ever wrote for the bass voice (DYK 2010), but how would it help in this context? Vocal works are normally performed by singers, if not otherwise noted. Btw, it was FS who wrote about recordings, and it made me smile. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:03, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

I think you only need to say 'the bass singer Klaus Mertens'. - AM

He is no longer mentioned. (It would have to be "the bass", - we don't say "the tenor singer", and then you'd have to link, to dab from bassist, and get a see of blue ... - For singing any simple song, which this is, the voice type doesn't matter, - it's not an opera role.)

N At present the text "recorded by Klaus Mertens" does not make it obvious he is a singer, you have to look at the link at realise it. A reader might say, "Who was Mertens? A man in the street?" - AM

Sorry, I thought he was in the dropped F/B section, my bad. I thought it's clear that a song would be recorded by a singer, not a man in the street, and I would feel a bit silly to say so, but if you insist I will suffer that. - In which case I'd drop "pianist" from the other performer. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:59, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

4.3 Freylinghausen, Bach

• Who is Freylinghausen? (full name and link needed) Ditto Bach.

  done --GA

• Link BWV (Bach-Werke-Verzeichnis)

  I hate to link to that monster of an article but as you wish --GA

• If baritone is linked, then tenor, etc. should be too.
• Recordings of this setting: - ‘Recordings of the setting of BWV 451 include:’
• The list needs to be rewritten so that each line has a consistent look, e.g. ‘(1961): Wilhelm Kaiser (tenor) and ensemble (Werner Immelmann, Georg Bleyer, Horst Stöhr, Arnim Schultz, Gert Spiering and Barbara Brauckmann).
• Consider unlinking organ.

  For all these: I suggest I summarize the most important performers. This is not about the Schemelli collection, but the hymn. Need a break though. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:11, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

  I reduced the recordings to three examples from three decades, a tenor, a baritone, a choir. I'm determined to write a separate article on the song book, for which the diligent list by FS can be revived. No point here to list the name of a player in the orchestra. I also reduced the complicated description of how small Bach's contribution was. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:05, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

On hold

That's all I could find, I've done my best. I'm putting the article on hold for a week until 26 May to allow time for the above issues I have identified to be sorted. I'll cross out lines as they get done. Thanks! Amitchell125 (talk) 19:06, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

Thanks, much has now been sorted, a few issues still remaining and then we are done. Amitchell125 (talk) 20:04, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

Passing

Passing now, the points still remaining to be addressed don't affect the high quality of the article and its deserved status as a GA. Amitchell125 (talk) 07:56, 22 May 2021 (UTC)