Talk:Estonian government-in-exile

No EGE?

In essence, the main difficulty throughout the German occupation (and afterwards) was that resistance to the Germans would inevitably be construed as support for Communism and the Soviet Union; while resistance to the Soviets would be construed as support for Nazism. Despite the continued service of diplomats of the Estonian Republic in several countries, there was no Estonian government in exile, in whose name resistance could have been undertaken. There was very little "middle ground".

The fact that there was no government in whose name to fight, because it wasn't a lot of the cabinet that had escaped does not mean there was no government at all. It was not an information era. Information was slow to move.--Alexia Death 19:01, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Come on, this is lamest explanation since Monicagate. There was movement of ppl between Estonia and Sweden during German occupation. Would Uluots wanted to set up government in exile, he could do it pretty easily. You can call Comission whatever name you want, but it is not hostile toward Estonia. If report says there were NO government in exile, you can't interpret it's findings in any other way. RJ CG 19:20, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Digwurren has posted an explanation about the start times into the article. Thats good enough for me.--Alexia Death 19:26, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

P.S: why dint you do that instead of pasting a half a sentence without dates?--Alexia Death 19:27, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

A bit late to this, first we had the government underground (Nazi occupation), then restored (post-Nazi evacuation, pre-Soviet belligerent re-occupation), then escaped (only some, as the boat from Sweden developed engine problems, did not make its rendezvous, and most were captured by the Soviets and eventually mostly executed) into exile. PētersV 20:06, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Ups, this article is messed up, needs a lot of attention. I'm bookmarking it with the "expert tag" for now. Feel free to fix the article, otherwise I'm going to return to this later as time permits. Meanwhile, please do not link it or use it with any Estonian history related articles on WP in current state. Thanks--Termer 03:47, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

This government was not recognized directly by any state. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.40.110.66 (talk) 10:29, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Government in exile is defined by what brings it into existence and how that existence terminates, so: its continuity with the prior sovereign governmental instance, and by its turning over of its authority to a subsequent authority. PētersV 20:00, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

... but yes, not formally recognized; however, the legation in New York continued to issue passports, which were internationally recognized, etc.--so there was both a government in exile and a legation in exile complementing each other. Recognition of continuity (the larger issue) is also a choice of the recognizing powers--which in this case explicitly did not recognize Soviet annexation--as it is of the Estonian nation itself and manifestations of its sovereign authority. Neither a formal government in exile nor recognition thereof is a prerequisite for continuity. As far as I am aware, Russia is the only power to express the "non-continuity" view. PētersV 20:16, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Thats the point PētersV the Baltic legations in New York were the institutions that carried on the continuity. The role of the 1953 exile government was marginal. It wasn't like it was recognized by the consulate in NY. Regarding the latter, not only that they were issuing passports that were respected by the most of the western countries. Please check out Apollo 11 Goodwill Messages, the Latvian and Estonian consuls signed the statements among other leaders of 73 countries around the world.--Termer 21:01, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Cleanup

I've checked the reference cited, and it provides a good deal more insight and information than is currently reflected in the article. This might be a nice quiet corner to do some editing. :-) PētersV 20:00, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Hi PētersV, if you'd like to help out, one reliable source about the subject would be at the Estonian School of Diplomacy web page [1]--Termer 21:12, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Started to clean up from memory, left my printouts of sources at work, but it wasn't good enough to save... come next week! PētersV 04:15, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Used Termer's source to make enough of a dent. Some, like the boat having engine trouble, was from one of my other sources I don't have handy right now, I'll put in the references Monday or Tuesday. I also sectioned the article to make it easier to maintain and expand sections. Hope this helps! PētersV 07:25, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Nice work PētersV! Thanks a lot. One thing I'm not that certain, how much the Germans actually permitted the National Council to work openly. It was mostly an underground thing. But I'll look up some more sources at first. --Termer 09:18, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Post "clean-up" edits

I looked through the subsequent edit history, a few observations on subsequent edits, first two are from our anonymous contributor.

1. "Only a small number managed to escape, among them August Rei, Minister of Foreign Affairs, who had been in Sweden since 1940." -- Unless I misread it the source I was using indicated Rei was one of the escapees when the Soviets re-invaded. If that is incorrect, then the "corrective" edit is nonsensical (as in Rei escaped to Sweden while he was already there). Needs to be sourced and to either be reverted or corrected.
2. Section title changed from "National Committee of the Republic of Estonia under the Nazi occupation" to "Republic of Estonia under the German occupation" -- I think it's a bit problematic when "Nazi" is changed to "German", critics like to make that out to be Nazi sympathizing (not calling a Nazi a Nazi); nothing is gained by that change; also, shortening the title by removing the National Committee reference it implies the Estonians were in control when they were not.
3. Leading to Termer's point... The Nazis were aware of the National Committee, there appeared to be varying degrees of tolerance--better sources are definitely needed since the Committee was primarily touched upon with regard to its role in the continuity of the government. PētersV (talk) 03:21, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Generally the Central Council of Latvia formed on August 13, 1943; Supreme Committee for the Liberation of Lithuania formed on November 25 1943 and the National Committee of the Estonian Republic formed on march 23, 1944 are regarded as resistance groups during the Nazi German occupation. The Nazi German authorities "varying degrees of tolerance" towards these formations grew in sync with how they started to loose the war. The National Committee of the Estonian Republic for example in the end managed to rehabilitate in the eyes of the Nazi German occupation authorities the guys who had escaped to Finland avoiding the Nazi German mobilization call, and brought back to Estonia the Finnish Infantry Regiment 200. At the same time the Nazi German occupation authorities didn't recognize the National Committee as representatives of the Republic of Estonia, and they did not recognize the provisional government formed by the committee. --Termer (talk) 05:14, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

PS, regarding the use of Nazi or Germany. Since Nazi refers to and simply means National Socialist, it's just more precise than saying just "Germany" that has much broader meaning. In the context I'd use "Nazi Germany" that means - National Socialist Germany.--Termer (talk) 05:26, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Agree. You do use also "Soviet", nor "Commie" or "Bolshevik".

On September 21 the Estonian forces seized the Toompea government buildings and ordered the German forces to leave.[2]

This sentence is uncorrect. German forces were leaving from Tallinn anyway. Tief's government had no power to order them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.40.110.66 (talk) 11:36, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Out of all members of Uluots's government only Uluots himself survived the first Soviet occupation. All others were prisoned, and in some instances, also executed by Soviets. In 1944 were only Uluots and Paul Kogerman, Minister of Public Education (then Soviet prisoner) alive.

What is a perfect English translation for Estonian "Peaminister Vabariigi Presidendi ülesandeis"?

Agreed on Nazi Germany. On the flag, the source for the article indicated the Nazis, even as they were going to leave, blocked the Estonian government's efforts to more widely proclaim its reestablishment, so they were an active impediment up to their last minute of presence. (I don't recall at the moment if it mentioned the flag raising specifically.) PētersV (talk) 15:22, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

National Committee

I restored/am restoring the Committee. The purpose of the article isn't just to boil it down to demonstrating continuity, it needs to include details of surrounding events. Losing the Committee in the article also implied the government was somehow functioning during occupation by Nazi Germany--it was barely staying alive. Apologies if this feels like a revert to anyone. I invite our anonymous editor to register. PētersV (talk) 15:46, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

The National commitee was a self-styled body founded by some naive and assured "anglophile" people who were convinced that Estonia is important enough to hope to Allies occupation. Chairman of this Committee was Kaarel Liidak, no way Uluots. They also called Uluots Nazi collaborator. Only in the last minute, September 1944 an agreement between those two factions became possible. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.40.12.198 (talk) 08:52, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Also on:

Uluots formally proclaimed himself acting President in April, 1944. On September 18, 1944 Uluots, suffering from cancer, named Otto Tief the Deputy Prime Minister and formed a Government which consisted of 11 members selected out of the members of the National Council.

versus later:

Uluots formally was recognized as Prime Minister in capacity of the President of the Republic (Peaminister Vabariigi Presidendi ülesandeis) by Electoral Committee (Vabariigi Presidendi Asetäitja Valimiskogu), on April 20, 1944. On September 18, 1944 Uluots, suffering from cancer, named Otto Tief the Acting Prime Minister and formed a Government which consisted of 11 members.

I'll merge and leave the electoral committee for now, but we need a reference for that. The original source was also quite clear that Tief was Deputy not Acting. Also, "Council" should have been "Committee" my error. PētersV (talk) 15:52, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Done. I also tidied up the information on Rei (and thanks for the ref). If we could find more information on the National Committee I think that would really help add substance to the article. The story during Soviet occupation was basically one of legitimate authority going underground and the impact of Soviet deportations on those members of government. The story during occupation by Nazi Germany is the key one, where the National Committee is organized and the Estonians make a concerted effort to keep the government going (this wasa period of three years after all)--the last bit of that story is how the Nazi authorities had impeded the Tief government in proclaiming itself more widely even as the Nazis were evacuating, and then, even as the Nazi army retreated, they still fought the Estonians. Let's insure we capture and communicate the sense of drama of these events. PētersV (talk) 16:18, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

• RE to 193.40.110.66 On September 21 the Estonian forces seized the Toompea government buildings and ordered the German forces to leave.[2]

This sentence is uncorrect?

really? please take this complaint to the source: the Royal Institute of International Affairs. Even though I appreciate your opinion, unless you were up there at Toompea in 1944, have published memoirs from where we could use a citation to back up your opinion...until then please do not remove referenced facts from WP. Please also note that such removal of referenced material from WP can be interpreted as WP:vandalism and in case there is a persistent pattern of such removals, it is going to be listed for consideration at Wikipedia:Administrator intervention against vandalism. Thanks--Termer (talk) 16:47, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Thakns for yor irony, Termer! There are enogh competent sources, memories and so on in Estonian (even in Estonian wikipedia, see: et:Jüri Uluots, et:Otto Tief, et:Otto Tiefi valitsus, et:Vabariigi Presidendi Asetäitja Valimiskogu). Do you imagine really these 11 men commanding German army to leave from Estonia?

Actually, this dovetails with the comment I was about to leave not having yet seen Termer's -- please let's only add to the article. Estonia is the only one of the three Baltic states to hve had a formal government in exile, it's an informative and gripping story. If there is anything people are unsure of, please put in a {{citation}} flag. If sources differ, then we need additional sources (and independent of each other insofar as possible) to then arrive at the appropriate correction as with Rei.

   In the case of the flag, if the Estonians did order the Nazi army to leave and they did shouting "we were leaving anyway", the order would have still been given. If the Nazi flag was up and was taken down by Estonians, and Nazi guards at the tower departed, that is very different from the Nazis had already vacated, the Nazi flag was still hanging there, the Estonians merely took it down and put theirs up. Again, please let's insure we stick to sources and cite all additions going forward, that takes care of 99.99% of any issues. Most of all, deleting is not correcting. Thanks! PētersV (talk) 17:48, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Art. 46. If the office of the President of the Republic is vacant or if the President of the Republic in the cases mentioned by the law is prevented from performing his duties, the functions of the President of the Republic are exercised by the Prime Minister, while the duties of the Prime Minister are discharged during the performance by this latter of the functions of the President of the Republic, by the Acting Prime Minister.

If the office of President of the Republic becomes vacant before the end of the term, elections for a new President of the Republic are held forthwith. If obstacles preventing the President of the Republic from discharging his duties have lasted in the cases specified by law for six consecutive months, it may be proceeded to the election of a new President of the Republic, by decision of the Electoral Committee.

If in time of war the office of the President of the Republic becomes vacant or if obstacles preventing the President of the Republic from discharging his duties have lasted in the cases specified by law for six consecutive months, the Electoral Committee proceeds forthwith to elect an Acting President of the Republic. If the obstacles have lasted consecutively for over a month, the Electoral Committee may, for reasons of State, proceed to the election of an Acting President of the Republic even before the expiration of the term of six months.

The Electoral Committee is composed of: The Prime Minister, the Commander-in-Chief or Commander of the Armed Forces, the President of the Chamber of Deputies, the President of the National Council and the President of the State Court of Justice. The Electoral Committee is convened by the Prime Minister, either his own initiative or at the request of at least three members of the Electoral Committee, including in time of war the Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces. Details of the procedure in the Electoral Committee are determined by the law.

The powers of the Acting President of the Republic begin with his making the solemn declaration before the Electoral Committee and end with the entry into office of the new President of the Republic.

The Prime Minister carrying out the duties of the President of the Republic is not entitled to order the election of a new Chamber of Deputies or to alter the composition of the National Council.

With the entry into office of the Acting President of the Republic the powers of the last President of the Republic shall terminate.

Art. 52. The Prime Minister represents the Government of the Republic; he leads and coordinates its activities and directs its meetings; he is entitled to interrogate the individual ministers with regard to their actions and to give them directions.

On the proposal of the Prime Minister the President of the Republic nominates from among the ministers an Acting Prime Minister. If the Prime Minister and the Acting Prime Minister are unable to discharge the duties of the Prime Minister, these are performed by the oldest member of the Government of the Republic.

[2] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.40.12.198 (talk) 08:46, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Termer, why you are deleting my additions? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.40.12.198 (talk) 09:00, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Do you like repeating, Termer? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.40.12.198 (talk) 09:10, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

please feel free to improve the article by adding any sourced facts. Any opinionated additions and removal of the facts are going to be reverted on the spot. Please do not remove things from this article or bring it up on the talk page what bothers you. Thanks!--Termer (talk) 09:25, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Uluots

The current article is full of idiotical uncompetent statements. These are well sourced?

Jüri Uluots had nothing to do with this self-styled "committee". He was labelled as nazi collaborator by them. There is a great book, titled "Tõotan ustavaks jääda...", in Estonian, making these issues clear enough. Please see Estonian wikipedia links above (art. 52, second paragraph). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.40.12.198 (talk) 13:12, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm away on vacation right now (sources not handy). As I recall, there have always been charges that Uluots was a "collaborator" because he acceded to the Nazi army drafting Estonians to fight against the imminently invading Red Army. This was not a step Uluots took lightly and even in doing so commented that this will probably cause his memory to be vilified--but it was the best step for Estonia to have any chance of holding off the Soviet re-invasion. (This is from non-Estonian "non-nationalist" sources I have read.) The article is well-sourced. PētersV (talk) 21:19, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

I looked through some of the past diffs regarding what's been reverted. I would suggest a couple of things. First, for anonymous contributors to register so they are available for talk and (at their option) email, and for continuity in identifying past editors. The other suggestion is to discuss to what degree issues need to be included here versus better belonging somewhere else--for example, Uluots and charges of collaboration. That does not materially affect the storyline of the Estonian government in exile. We still don't have a lot about what the government in exile did or didn't do, perhaps time is better spent there with regards to this paricular article. PētersV (talk) 21:44, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Thank you 193.40.12.198 for sharing your opinions. According to the sources the committee was the one who appointed and asked Uluots to continue his responsibilities as Prime minister. Since, let me remind you that Uluots had resigned as Prime minister in 1940, August Rei was appointed by the president as his successor but he was rejected by the occupying powers. So, since Uluots had officially resigned, the only way he was appointed back to his post was by the "self-styled committee". These can BTW be the reasons nobody ever recognized internationally the exile government, instead the consulate of Estonia in NY carried on the sate continuity. For example Ernst Jaakson was recognized as the representative of the Republic of Estonia. He signed in the name of Estonia for example among other 73 heads of state the Apollo 11 Goodwill Messages etc...--Termer (talk) 22:23, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

According to Ernst Jaakson, the reason for withholding recognition was the Maurer rivalry splitting the emigre community, hence the USA recognised the consulate instead, rather than taking sides. Martintg (talk) 23:13, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Now that you mention it, I do recall reading something about the U.S. not wanting to take sides. I would definitely work that information into the article. PētersV (talk) 20:11, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Art. 46. If the office of the President of the Republic is vacant or if the President of the Republic in the cases mentioned by the law is prevented from performing his duties, the functions of the President of the Republic are exercised by the Prime Minister, while the duties of the Prime Minister are discharged during the performance by this latter of the functions of the President of the Republic, by the Acting Prime Minister.

If the office of President of the Republic becomes vacant before the end of the term, elections for a new President of the Republic are held forthwith. If obstacles preventing the President of the Republic from discharging his duties have lasted in the cases specified by law for six consecutive months, it may be proceeded to the election of a new President of the Republic, by decision of the Electoral Committee.

If in time of war the office of the President of the Republic becomes vacant or if obstacles preventing the President of the Republic from discharging his duties have lasted in the cases specified by law for six consecutive months, the Electoral Committee proceeds forthwith to elect an Acting President of the Republic. If the obstacles have lasted consecutively for over a month, the Electoral Committee may, for reasons of State, proceed to the election of an Acting President of the Republic even before the expiration of the term of six months.

The Electoral Committee is composed of: The Prime Minister, the Commander-in-Chief or Commander of the Armed Forces, the President of the Chamber of Deputies, the President of the National Council and the President of the State Court of Justice. The Electoral Committee is convened by the Prime Minister, either his own initiative or at the request of at least three members of the Electoral Committee, including in time of war the Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces. Details of the procedure in the Electoral Committee are determined by the law.

The powers of the Acting President of the Republic begin with his making the solemn declaration before the Electoral Committee and end with the entry into office of the new President of the Republic.

The Prime Minister carrying out the duties of the President of the Republic is not entitled to order the election of a new Chamber of Deputies or to alter the composition of the National Council.

With the entry into office of the Acting President of the Republic the powers of the last President of the Republic shall terminate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.40.110.66 (talk) 11:12, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Former country infobox

Elevatorrailfan (talk · contribs), please stop edit warring, your change has been reverted so therefore please discuss your proposed change on talk per WP:BRD. As was already explained to you when your change was reverted in the article Provisional Government of Southern Ireland, "This article is about a government, not a state."--Nug (talk) 19:59, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

Removal of Infobox.

The Estonian government-in-exile claimed to be the legitimate state of Estonia when Estonia was part of the Soviet Union from 1940-1941 and after World War Two and when it was occupided by Germany during World War Two. Elevatorrailfan (talk) 02:45, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

No, it did not claim to be "ligament state of Estonia", it claimed to be the government of Estonia after WW2. Governments and states are different things, and this infobox is just not appropriate here. --Nug (talk) 18:24, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

List of acting Presidents?

Shouldn't the article also contain a list of acting Presidents (Prime Ministers in the duties of the President)? Or does that information belong somewhere else, and if yes, where? --Thathánka Íyotake (talk) 01:55, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

The government-in-exile today?

The article mentions that the government-in-exile was reinstated by some former members after becoming defunct in 1992. This is unreferenced; however, I'm more concerned about whether or not this should be discussed further in the article, especially as the lead section implies that the government-in-exile is defunct. --ElKabong888 (talk) 03:59, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

The so called Nõmme Coverment is (or was?) a kind of role playing club. I removed this paragraph. --Klõps (talk) 22:48, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

Thanks. Do you speak Estonian? Perhaps this article would be of interest to you regarding the subject – I have to translate it and as such cannot fully understand it. --ElKabong888 (talk) 06:28, 26 February 2019 (UTC)