Talk:Franklin Bulls

Issues with article content

I am raising my concerns with the article content here after doing so at the talk page of the IP editor involved in the majority of the content (where I received no response) as well as my post at WikiProject Basketball. I have since tagged the page highlighting what I believe are the multiple issues.

I believe the page should be reverted back to this version. The Franklin Bulls are a relatively new franchise and have not achieved much from a noteworthy sense, such as deep season coverage from independent reliable sources. None of their four seasons have been particularly notable so far.

The majority of the content at the page is over exaggerated and over sensationalised. It is poorly sourced and lacks encyclopaedic focus. The editor claims to be closely linked to the team, so the content is heavily written from a fan's point of view.

I welcome discussion on what I have presented and hope to have other editors assist in the clean up.

Thanks. DaHuzyBru (talk) 05:21, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

A relevant policy is WP:ONUS:

While information must be verifiable for inclusion in an article, not all verifiable information must be included. Consensus may determine that certain information does not improve an article. Such information should be omitted or presented instead in a different article. The responsibility for achieving consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content.

—Bagumba (talk) 04:38, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

@C.Fred and Bagumba: In light of the hour rampage that IP went on that lead to their block, would either of you wish to help me clean this page up? I don't know if I would be able to fall under being bold and reverting back to before the IP started editing the page considering my history with the page and me raising the concerns with the page. DaHuzyBru (talk) 10:09, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

I'm not familiar with the team, so I'll pass. As consensus hasn't formed on the additions, I don't see it as a problem if you remove any of it. —Bagumba (talk) 15:32, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Following my posts here, here, and here at this talk page, as well as allowing time for others to have involvement and provide opinions, I have completed an article clean up. I am happy for others to critique or challenge any of it. Thanks. DaHuzyBru (talk) 02:46, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Hi there, a fellow fan of the bulls has mentioned to my husband and I that you've had her blocked from the franklin bulls wiki page. Its taken a us a few weeks to find out how to get some sort of account and then understand your even able to edit or make changes to certain pages. She was concerned about comments placed on the page here that several players had left our team and gone to the MLS, which is rather odd that Basketball players would leave a paid job to go play a different sport in a different country.

She also was upset to tell that us that because she mentioned she was a volunteer for the team, it was apparently made in a passing comment to her she shouldn't be making edits or changes (whatever the correct term is, we aplogize in advance for not being tech savvy on the terms). We've also noticed your a sports vlogger on this new x handle and that you have connections to a what would deem as a rival team.

So we beg to ask the question , not of her conduct but of why she is blocked from editing a page, but you as a sports vlogger and have connections may? You also suggest here discussion, but as she pointed out to us, you've removed all her edits, which sourced from Basketball NZ, the NBL website and the bulls own website and added your own.

She was also upset her fact finding efforts for our young men that repped us in the 3v3 tourny they recently had in the South Island of New Zealand was also removed? she also showed us a screen shot suggesting in a round about way "the bulls have only been in the league for a short time they don't need all this detail".

We don't speak for the team - as the rules of wiki suggest we can't, but as fans ourseleves, we find some of these statments rather odd and quite frankly out of line.

As far as we are concerned without upsetting anyone, as you did our young vollunteer, we don't appreciate false information being placed about the team. In a closed personal forum on a different platfrom, several other members and vollunteers asked why players had left the team as stated on here.

While we don't want to get into the back and forth ramble of page edits - at least get the information your going to edit correct.

So dissapointing to see a young person whom took the time adding player numbers and stats, removed.

If your with a rival team as it looks (We know the Wildcats own or manage one other NBL team and the fact your x handle mentions your based in Perth) in future, we'd kinda ask you source your info and instead of removing factual content, just don't, esp if your connected to a rival team. 222.153.148.152 (talk) 08:45, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

@222.153.148.152 – please avoid making any of this personal. See Wikipedia:No personal attacks. I did not "have her blocked" – that had nothing to do with me. Multiple independent administrators deemed the block appropriate. I raised my concerns with the article in a civil manner in multiple locations. Multiple other users agreed that the content of the article was not up to Wikipedia standards. Changes have been made as a result. There is no "false information" in the article – there are five paragraphs in the Team history section currently that summarise the four seasons. Each paragraph has reliable independent sources included to support the content. DaHuzyBru (talk) 09:54, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Hi there, we would like to know why as soon as a question is raised, the defensive stance is taken, we are seaking information, not a conflict. This what our young volunteer said happened to her. We have noticed you have an affilaiton with another team, she was told that she was not able to make edits due to her "volunteer" situation, so it does concern us how your able to make comment and remove a lot of her stat work, but then straight away state "don't personal attack me" - we aren't, we asking a question, there is a difference, understand our concern for her. (We have seen screen shots of her edits sure some of them were fan based, but for the most part were stats from listed sources).

We would like to know why you decided to summerize these and again she did show us a screen shot saying as we basically mentioned you stated "the team has basically done nothing in 4 years". We are not techically savvy about the website and its structure, or perhaps if pages have limitations but its odd you mention your open to "disscusion" but as soon as we asked a question about the 3v3 stats and you've directed the conversation away to "don't blame me""don't attack me" - again we aren't looking to do that. She noted this happened to her several times and when she asked why or how, what she was met with a block.

We are not here to discuss that block she has been handed, but we would like to know why her stat information was removed and why you required the need to limit or summerize her work, a simple quesiton seeking a simple answer. Most of her sources had news article references or website references, her personal comments - no drama remove them, we have addressed this with her that in a public forum don't post bias.

You've left our young volunteer rather frustrated in doing so. Again we don't speak for actions or her words, but as people that also follow the team, its concerning information was placed about players leaving the team (they haven't and won't be) weither it was you or another user whom as we can we read above also states they have no idea about the team, like her, we ask why then?

Our volunteer mentioned she has had her own page or whatever the correct terms is, removed and she is unable to appeal her extended ban that apparently was changed. Again not here for that issue, just want to make sure as we can see you have a connection to a rival team, your not doing so in their favour.

She also had a section about "off season movements" listing were different players were plying their trade, with factual links and sources, again no one knows why they were removed. 222.153.148.152 (talk) 10:20, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Reading through your comment, I see the phrase our young volunteer. It is very easy to read into this one of two things: 1) you are a fan so passionate about the team that you feel a sense of "ownership" about it, which may distort your ability to edit with neutral point of view, or 2) you have a connection of some nature with the team.

We would like to know why you decided to summerize these… Because the level of detail was undue for an encyclopedia article about the team. It's not unreasonable to mention a top scorer, although the level of detail provided was excessive. In particular, 3v3 stats are peripheral to the main (5v5) team and thus outside the scope of the article, although a brief mention would be in order. Wikipedia is not a fan website about the team; it is an encyclopedia, and articles follow Wikipedia's Manual of Style, not the desire of team fans.

Our volunteer mentioned she has had her own page or whatever the correct terms is, removed and she is unable to appeal her extended ban that apparently was changed. She was blocked and had her talk page access revoked; the blocking admin stated the reason as "Persistent battleground approach to other editors, and inability or refusal to edit in a collaborative spirit." She has also appealed her block via email; the individual handling that case said "they have continued the kind of ranting and attacking other editors that they have done on this page, and they give no indication whatsoever of intending to start editing in a more collaborative spirit, so there is no question of accepting the requests".

As far as players leaving the team, I previously replied to the volunteer on her talk page that I missed the date issue. I drew an analogy to MLS of a sport whose season is in opposition to the other major leagues in its sport, so MLS players can also play in, say, the English Premier League. I take it that's what's happening with these players: they'll return to NZNBL for its next season, but in the NZ off-season, which is in-season else-world, they're playing in other leagues.

To that end, I have a request and welcome a reply on this talk page. If you can provide a link to a news story stating that the players are "on loan", "playing in the off-season", or whatever colloquial phrase is used there to indicate a temporary stint, I'll be glad to make sure the article is properly reflecting it. If the only source if the Bulls' website with a news story about it, that will work—since it's fair to use the Bulls' assertion that the player will be back next season in sourcing. —C.Fred (talk) 12:58, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Hi there, if your refering to young vollunteer as we are, then great we are speaking of the same person that had the issues. in regards to your question or perhaps request for information about the players "coming and going in the off season" we were under the impression she added a link or several. If not well she now isn't able to, as not only is she blocked, reported, stopped (whatever is the correct internet term) from the Franklin bulls page, she can't even make a comment on her own page.

Thats not a matter for us, but if your wanting a reference, that is something she would have to do, we personally don't have the time for it, this here is long enough.

Again the other user above, has a x profile detailing a Australian NBL team which owns a rival team in our league. Our basis for attempting to ask questions to get the wiki side of the story is to find out why she was told not to edit, (She was told as a vollunteer its not a thing to do) yet this user that has an affilation and can...

We've informed other fans in a private forum setting not to follow the page because of how our vollunteer was blocked. It also doesn't allow our vollunteers and members to contribute if a rules stands (which is fine, again we are not here to argue rules clearly stated as its been linked) However for the record certains things added by her we referenced as you requested (be it news media or websites, which are fact checked by the league) this other user has added similar news stories from similar resources but in their view our vollunteers references aren't...makes no sense to us.

The user suggested they contacted our young vollunteer - she has mentioned to us she was never contacted (I guess this is her talk page or something). There is also a message of "open for discussion" from the user, a motion that suggests (from our pov) they are in somehow in control of the page itself? Is this because this person claims to be a sports vlogger? not sure, but we see a link to a rival team and feel bias there, our point of view on the discussion, not a person attack or as others put it "rampage response" or "battle ground tactics".

Aplogies for the lengthy reply, but our private forum members don't agree with certain sourced info being removed.

One last thing if we may - Its also stated the 3v3 format doesn't sit with the 5v5 format, to us this makes no sense to go and create perhaps another page just for that feature. Users have talked about in previous replies limiting info...in theory she did by adding possibly two paragraphs about the teams 3v3 endevaours that really only started this season, whats to say this user here won't come and delete any motions to create a seperate page for the 3v3 format?

Just food for though, appreciate your response that we can explain to our vollunteers whom have also been spoken to about internet etiqutte toward people / users such as yourself.

We agree she didn't do herself any favours, but as her story goes, she was requested to removed or retract statments or something, she showed us she did and then was blocked from her own talk page. In a free world, its hard for one to speak (with in reason) when the can't. 222.153.148.152 (talk) 20:26, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

I don't see anything in the other user's Wikipedia profile to indicate a conflict of interest or other connection with any team. I would caution you against linking Wikipedia users to off-Wiki profiles unless the other user themselves discloses the connection; WP:OUTING is one of the more serious offences a Wikipedia user can commit.

The standard point of contact on Wikipedia is a user's talk page. Discussion with a user normally goes to the user talk page; discussion about an article goes on the article talk page. (This page is the talk page associated with the Franklin Bulls article.)

A note about sources. WP:Reliable sources is the general guidance for sources in article. There is a separate set of guidance, WP:Self-published sources, when a subject writes the sources about itself—this includes a basketball club issuing press releases about itself or its players. A concern about the sourcing really should have come to this page for discussion about the merits of the sources.

Looking back at the article, most of my interaction with the volunteer was behavioural. where she removed maintenance tags from the article advising other editors that, for instance, independent editors needed to review the article, because a contributor with a conflict of interest had added large amounts of text. At a core level, both she and I agree that the article could do with expansion; the difference is that I'm looking at the framework of Wikipedia's guidelines and policies and making sure that this article is written in a similar style to other basketball team articles. Ultimately, that's a key point for any editor active on Wikipedia: they have to work within the guidelines and not try to work counter to them, and they must work with other editors.

One final thought. It is easy to write an article about the Denver Broncos (US, National Football League) or Chicago Bulls (US, NBA) because of the amount of media coverage they get in the United States, which generates a lot of sourcing. It is harder to write an article about the Brisbane Broncos (Australia, National Rugby League), and harder still if it's the women's team, because the volume of coverage in Australia is not as great. I acknowledge that the Franklin Bulls probably don't get even that level of coverage due to market size issues. That creates an awkward balancing act. The information in the article needs to meet sourcing guidelines, yet there's a geographic bias that needs guarded against, because as a team in a fully-professional top-grade league, there's inherent notability for the team. And that's the beauty of this talk page. Anybody with an interest in the team can come to the talk page and share a link to a news story or other resource and say, hey, is this something we can use to improve the article? And editors like me, who want to help but can't always find the sources readily, then we have something to work with. That's the kind of win-win that will help the article. —C.Fred (talk) 21:22, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Hi again there, we appreciate the ongoing replies, its been helpful for us to explain to our members and volunteers.

We are not looking to start any issues with another user, we beleive in our findings off wikipedia, this user like our vollunteer has a conflict of interest or closeness to a team in the league as it was stated. If I may, if our vollunteer never mentioned she was one, there would be no evidence she was. Again she has been spoken to and the ban caution matter is one with her and wiki, not us. We are just attempting to provide her info of the outcomes and reason, since she can't access anything. There are several statements suggesting she wouldn't add any value to other addtions (again not in those exact words but for arguements sake right now).

She had never planned to edit / add / change other pages of other teams, just the bulls page.

My husband and I would agree to disagree with your comment about media coverage, if you personally don't live in NZ, you are correct you don't know where to look, however it doesn't also make the reporting from the US any better just because there is "more". I'm not sure about the discussion on an Australian rugby league team, best I can follow is that your using as an example of limited reporting perhaps.

Without diving to far off topic, the SALS NBL league is actually shown on ESPN in America and is does actually have media coverage - but that is off topic.

The user we had in question above uses media references that are no different to what our vollunteer used, local media websites, newspaper reporting, official stats.

Again we are not attempting to disagree with you, we want her to follow the rules as you have clearly laid out to us (We thank you for that). But what we do see, which she metioned is that this other users resources that are no different to hers and the stance or angle given of "I offer discussion" - to us the wording of that comes across as that user decides how it is, we don't agree with that wording. Again please understand that is our view of the wording, If that user wants discussion - reach out (they didn't) and wait for discussion before just going ahead (they didn't and our vollunteer couldn't reply anyway). As again some of the info the mentioned lead to false claims about members leaving and removing of stats.

We appreciate your honesty and time on the matter. its a pity our Volunteer didn't really understand what she was doing didn't really fit the guidelines of the site. 222.153.148.152 (talk) 22:42, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

I did reach out to the user – I have linked it multiple times on this page. Here it is again. I received no response. When I tagged the page with what I believed were the multiple issues, the user's response was to simply remove those tags as apposed to addressing any of the issues. As was stated to the user on their talk page, Wikipedia is not a sports almanac. Any fan can write a big long essay about a team, doesn't mean that every bit of detail belongs on Wikipedia. How about try Fandom.com? That might be a good place to take all of their knowledge. In defending myself, I am not part of any "rival team" nor am I a "sports vlogger" despite the assumptions you have made. There is no grand conspiracy against the Franklin Bulls and "deleting correct content". I have been editing Wikipedia for 10+ years and have dedicated much time to Australian and New Zealand basketball. I am familiar with all the best NZ sources such as Stuff.co.nz and NZHerald. I do my best to maintain nearly every article related to the New Zealand NBL, always keeping rosters up-to-date. I was the article creator of the Franklin Bulls page as well as nearly every season page. My note about "nothing notable in 4 years" keeps getting brought up – I have demonstrated that I have moved on past that and you need to as well. However, I still stand by my original point. In 5-to-10 years time, this early period of the Franklin Bulls history will probably be able to summarised in a few sentences. Not every season is notable, not every season needs to be documented. This might be difficult for a fan to be able to see past, that is why we cautioned against such a fan editing the page. Getting angry at editors who disagree with their content is not going to end well for that person as Wikipedia is a collaborative encyclopedia. If the Franklin Bulls start winning championships and having great success in the future, this early period where they had little success is not going to be much of a highlight. Check out the Chicago Bulls – that page is already large, imagine the size of the page if every season and every roster for all time was documented! The page would be unreadable and indigestible. Not every season can be covered and not every season needs to be covered. I hope this helps. DaHuzyBru (talk) 01:00, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Hi there, its become clear to us now where our young friend had her frustrations. I'm picking up a lot of "I've done thisisums" in your responses which from our point of view leads to you asserting those views over newer people who may want to supply info.

We don't need check out the chicago bulls, as we don't have an interest in a league that calls themselves a world champion that doesn't complete at the basketball world cup. You state your familiar with all our local media, yet as we can see you removed all her updates (not edits to your stuff) that used some of these same resources and you've decided not to answer that part.

Your X handle suggests otherwise about a sports type vlogger, again we don't agree with your comment, we are not changing out point of view either.

We also don't agree with this talk of "in 5 or 10 years time this or that can or will happen". Again thats fantastic in your world, but what you have done in the process is deter a young person away from trying to add something. You mentioned you had added team lists, we didn't see any other than the recent team, which is now wrong and previous discussion where off season player movement and tall black call up was added has been taken away. She worked very hard to source all the info, as she was tracking some of her favorite players while they play in the off season.

Other mods we have interacted with in the last 24 hours, have clearly laid out the rules to us of how she interacted incorrectly (nothing about her information she added). We've addressed that with them. Its not a matter for us as we have no outcome on her ban, its also no place for us to comment on it. We respect the way of the internet, rules are placed to avoid abuse and threats

You might want to take a look at how your coming across yourself all we see is a lot of Again there is a lot "ive done thisisums" the teritoral approach in your response is very clear.

Good for you your "happy to move on" we don't need to be told how to think and we personally don't appreciate you making comments about our team "doing nothing in 4 years", if you even knew the success story behind the people that started the team from high school gym and what most others of do for the team in the greater community on weekly basis your tunnel vision responses would change. But you live in western Austrlia, not even in the same country us our league and as our young volunteer said to us "guy probably doesn't even know where Pukekohe is", but of course you'll come back and suggest to us "don't personal attack me" in an attempt to raise a trigger - We aren't attmepting anything.

As mentioned to the other mods here before, I'll let our private forum know of what has happend and to mention to all of them to disregard the page. We have made contact with league officials also.

to anyone else that has provided information on this issue in the last 24 hours of asking, thank you for your input its been helpful. 222.153.148.152 (talk) 03:02, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

I'm picking up a lot of "I've done thisisums" in your responses which from our point of view leads to you asserting those views over newer people who may want to supply info. With all due respect, it's called guiding new people into how it's done on Wikipedia. New editors who are unwilling (or unable) to follow community guidelines or policies get brought to the attention of administrators sooner or later because of that unwillingness. In the case of minor issues, they're usually given guidance to try to get them to grow into productive editors. For major violations, like violation of copyright, they're dealt with swiftly. For the most severe violations (outing and threats of legal or outside action), the standard approach is block first, explain why later.

I repeat here my desires for this article:

1. I want an article that complies with Wikipedia policies and guidelines.
2. I want to see the article expanded based on information available in reliable sources.

Editors who have an interest in growing and improving this article are welcome—and again, input from all contributors, even contributors with conflicts of interest, is welcome on the talk page.

But in all candor, editors with no interest in following WIkipedia policies and guidelines are not welcome anywhere in the project. —C.Fred (talk) 13:24, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

2024 information added

I've attempted several times to add details for the 2024 from sources which were then changed or edited for no reason, to attempt to stare this page into a positive direction.

The soureced material I'm looking to provide was intially taken from NZNBL or the bulls direct team website. I'm also currently consulting with NZNBL to gain access to real time live stats to add these in future to the page. Like many other sports teams pages that carry stats, I feel this page is missing that information PukeHoopster81 (talk) 03:13, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

A related policy is WP:ONUS:

While information must be verifiable for inclusion in an article, not all verifiable information must be included...The responsibility for achieving consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content.

The page should not be a collection of primary sources. We should be focusing on what independent reliable sources are covering. DaHuzyBru (talk) 04:50, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

And with my intention to contact NZNBL, the NZ BBall ass, the franklin bulls themselves, that is exactly the direction I intend to go with, I'm not looking to social media for quotes or updates, as some edits previously have been listed as being sourced from. While its simple and easy to pick up information from the likes of FB or Insta, I don't tend to use those as they can be intepreted to suit a certain audience and angle. The issue with NZ basketball information and history, is that it can be limited with a small media market as such, or even in terms of coverage. I've also recently discovered there is local sports media company that one will be able to gain access to information from. PukeHoopster81 (talk) 05:28, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I agree regarding social media, but the NZNBL and the Franklin Bulls are primary sources, so these are the sources we need to avoid. If there are local sports media companies that cover the Franklin Bulls, then these are the sources we need to seek out. If there is information that can't be sourced properly, then it doesn't belong on Wikipedia, no matter how correct it may be. DaHuzyBru (talk) 05:33, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure whom the "we" is your refering to? With my 27 years experience following the NBL, NBA & Tall Blacks, I'll only be refering to correct and factual resources and. The updates will be on going through the season. I've noticed many details & stats have been deleted previously - like there is some sort of made up "information" cap on the franklin bulls. Having read through many other NBL teams pages and other NZ sporting team pages, their is more detail to add when I have the time. PukeHoopster81 (talk) 05:41, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia is collaborative place. By "we" I mean anyone and everyone. Previous contributors to this page have been warned about being combative. Content disputes led to removal and clean up of certain content and contributions. DaHuzyBru (talk) 05:49, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

I've noted you've previous used what people would dubb as "buzz" words that would trigger reviews of the page. I'm here to add factual information and also clean up many errors. The title sponsor hasn't been what it was listed as for two season for one example. As you mention everybody has a place and thats what I intend to do. If I need an guidance i'll make contact with the offical channels, I don't currently require any from you, but thanks. There is no content dispute from my end, if the additons placed on the page are correcting previous errors and have factual links. If the information that is speculative or sourced from social media, as you also said shouldn't be used.

thanks PukeHoopster81 (talk) 06:05, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Trade Window

The Franklin Bulls and the Tuarara completed the NBL's first ever trade, once an offical other than social media ref is found, I will add this. I'm trying to not rely on social media posts for information. I would also suspect the Bulls will look to replace Jordan Hunt in the Squad since he is sadly gone for the whole season. PukeHoopster81 (talk) 21:43, 13 May 2024 (UTC)