Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Basketball

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Edits that say the European-wide basketball leagues have no ranking or tiers, and cannot be considered at any different levels[edit]

Currently, there seems to be a dispute from Hippo43 that there is no ranking level or tier level of any of the pan European basketball leagues (EuroLeague, EuroCup, Basketball Champions League, FIBA Europe Cup)....this is factually incorrect, as there is, and the leagues are definitely proportioned as such. However, the league articles keep getting edited to show there is no difference in level, as if there are 4 equal level European basketball leagues, which is of course completely impossible.Bluesangrel (talk) 04:50, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

No, Bluesangrel has misunderstood and misstated my view. I made some edits at European professional club basketball system, which was full of mistakes. Without getting into every change I made, the idea that there is a "pyramid" of European competitions is unsourced.
In the article I wrote "The EuroLeague is the most prestigious and highest-profile competition...The EuroCup is a lower level competition, also organised by EuroLeague Basketball...FIBA's Basketball Champions League, which began in 2016, is another competition at a lower level than the EuroLeague...FIBA also organises its own secondary competition, the FIBA Europe Cup." This seemed to me to be uncontroversial. It puts the competitions in the same order that they were described before.
However, in some of these articles there seems to be an obsession with using jargon like "tiers", "levels", "pyramids" etc. If these can be referenced with reliable sources, then great. But currently they aren't. --hippo43 (talk) 05:13, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
There are two sides of a coin in this situation. The first side is that nobody can deny that EuroLeague is the top-tier, EuroCup is the second-tier, Basketball Champions League is the second/third-tier (disputed) and FIBA Europe Cup is the forth-tier leagues. The second side is that there are no official sources that classify these leagues in such order. In addition, the second side does not deny the first side that EuroLeague is the top-tier league in Europe, but the lack of official sources about "tiers" is WP:OR at best. I looked through the changes made by Hippo43 and there was nothing controversial in those edits. Furthermore, there is no "European basketball pyramid" as Bluesangrel claims and this whole edit warring looks silly from both sides. Unless the whole continent of Europe becomes one sovereign state and calls themselves "the United States of Europe" (or any other name that would imply that), there is no point in sorting international competitions by non existent "tiers". – Sabbatino (talk) 12:10, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
There are off classes of tiers, in fact I posted an article from legit European media, from Sportando (US media often cites them), quoting the very President of FIBA, and the Basketball Champions League stating himself about the different tiers of the pan European basketball competitions. So yes, there are tiers officially, and FIBA's own head stated such in the media - Comninos: Basketball Champions League in a clear growth, improving level and brand the next targets "The Basketball Champions League is built on the concept of recognising performance on the court. It is our founding principle and remains at the heart of our vision. Sport is and always will be about competition and pursuit of the championship trophy. There are no guaranteed positions to the Basketball Champions League and access is determined by sport results. This is a fundamental principle and a cornerstone of the European pyramid of sports."
Those edits and sources were them removed by Hippo43, with no other explanation than to claim they were not legit and were not valid sources (despite it being a hugely respected media source and the head of international basketball.) So using that standard, no source could ever suffice.Bluesangrel (talk) 23:53, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
I explained why at the article talk page. This source says "European pyramid of sports", not basketball pyramid. It also says that the BCL is a "a top tier competition". So it directly contradicts what you have said. It doesn't mention four tiers, or any other tiers at all. --hippo43 (talk) 23:58, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
There are tiers and it's common knowledge. FIBA states EuroLeague is 1, BCL is 2, EuroCup is 3 and Europe Cup is 4. EuroLeague states EuroLeague is 1, EuroCup 2, BCL 3, and Europe Cup 4. There are dozens of articles in respecting press around the world (probably hundreds) stating that EuroLeague is 1, and that FIBA and EuroLeague dispute between EuroCup and BCL as 2/3. It is quite frankly, absolutely ridiculous for this to even be discussed as a debate.Bluesangrel (talk) 20:50, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
I would add, this is such basic common knowledge of European basketball, that if people here won't agree to that, then this should be taken to a general sports discussion or site discussion overall. Because it's basic common fact that this is the case, and people are claiming it isn't.Bluesangrel (talk) 20:52, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

Bluesangrel has continued edit warring at this article. I have reverted and explained in detail at the article talk page. I'm happy to discuss specifics but this approach is becoming disruptive. --hippo43 (talk) 23:31, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

A mod needs to get involved in this. I am not edit warring, and keep being falsely accused of that. I edited the article again to what is basic common knowledge and fact, added over 30 sources from legit and well-known media, and it was reverted it again. A mod needs to get involved here, and Hippo I am asking you kindly to stop making false accusations against me (edit warring, etc.) as you have done so now numerous times.Bluesangrel (talk) 23:38, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
It should also be noted that Hippo43 had several times reverted edits made Vasconia at the same article.
I'm sorry you think I am falsely accusing you of something. I don't mean to be personal. However, you started this discussion here, and when you didn't get the support you wanted, you simply reverted all your changes anyway. Please discuss specific details before making wholesale changes again. I don't know if it's technically edit warring, and I don't really care, but it is disruptive and not in the spirit of collaboration. --hippo43 (talk) 23:49, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
At just your talk page or my talk page, or just the article talk page, that only works if there is any semblance of agreement. There is none. After over 30 sources being added to the article, many of them from the official sources themselves (the actual leagues themselves), and some of the other biggest independent medias on the subject, you reverted everything, claiming the sources simply are wrong and not valid (paraphrasing). This was after you had originally claimed that you reverted edits because they had no legit sources and that legit sources needed to be added. Almost 3 dozen legit sources were added, then you reverted and simply argued none of the sources were valid. All the article's talk page is you arguing that no sources are valid, no matter if they are official, or from high level media. That isn't any kind of attempt at a discussion.Bluesangrel (talk) 00:00, 22 September 2018 (UTC)
Just for reference, the article had over 30 sources, many from official leagues themselves, and also from widely respected and well known medias - [1] and it was reverted with the reason of [2] - "Bluesangrel, again you undid numerous improvements that I made, and which had support at the project talk page, without any explanation. This is disruptive and not a collegial approach to editing.
Are you a native English speaker? Even if you are, it can take time to understand the accuracy needed here. Phrases such as “tier pyramid”, “European-wide” or “promotion and demotion” are just not used in English in this context.
You have cherry-picked numerous sources which are out of date, not reliable sources (basically blogs with no reputation for fact checking), linked to one of the two governing bodies, only mention this stuff in passing, or which actually contradict your statements. For example, the Sportcal source you added says the FIBA Europe Cup is 2nd tier. Similarly, the Sportando source which mentions “the European pyramid of sports” (not basketball pyramid), also states that the BCL is “a top tier competition”. Eurohoops.net, for example, claims it is an official media partner of EuroLeague Basketball, so is not unbiased." - and of course, again, the sources came from league's themselves, from large medias...and as can be seen in the old version of the article, every single thing stated in the article was sourced with numerous articles and sources.Bluesangrel (talk) 00:23, 22 September 2018 (UTC)
So, a total of 34 sources, from either official leagues, or large medias, and a few from highly respected sports sites, were simply reverted and all said to be invalid. Also, simply adding the sources in the first place to the article, after it was stated that sources needed to be added (that was the reason for a previous revert) led to claims that I was edit warring and being disruptive. If that is edit warring and being disruptive, then what is reverting edits (from another editor [Vasconia]), then claiming they needed sources to be added, and then after another editor (me) added sources, they reverted edits again and simply state sources are all invalid.....so what is that, if simply adding sources is edit warring and disruptive?Bluesangrel (talk) 00:30, 22 September 2018 (UTC)

Questions

  1. Why isn't there an identical parameter in UEFA Europa League, which is universally understood to be the NIT of European football?
  2. And if that article doesn't have that parameter, then why are we doing this for basketball articles? (Presumably basketball fans know the ranking between the Euroleague, EuroCup and BCL)? Howard the Duck (talk) 01:49, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
Tagging Bluesangrel for a reply on these questions. Howard the Duck (talk) 10:40, 30 October 2018 (UTC)
Very few basketball fans outside of Europe (probably less than 1%) knows it. Even in Europe you find many basketball fans that are unaware there are European leagues. And in places like the UK, most don't even know they have basketball leagues in Europe. Bluesangrel (talk) 21:49, 30 October 2018 (UTC)
That's probably true. But I dunno how the ranking of Euroleague > EuroCup > Champions League > Europe Cup translates into it being a "pyramid". By the football counterpart, (which you haven't explained why these parameters are not used) the Champions League and Europa League are connected (like losers in certain rounds of the Champions League go to the Europa League, and the winner competes in the next season's Champions League). In basketball these aren't, at least for those controlled by FIBA and the Euroleague. You can probably say that these leagues are ranked that way, but to say it's part of a "pyramid" isn't right; it's like saying that the NBA is on top of the U.S. basketball pyramid, with the G-League as the second level. There's no promotion and relegation between the two, so saying it's a pyramid of sorts is factually wrong. Howard the Duck (talk) 12:21, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
The leagues are interconnected through places won in the competitions (which thus means they are "tiered" in European sports), as was already explained, with numerous official sources given, so yes, each league has direct promotion with each other. The finalists of BCL are given places in EuroCup, winner of EuroCup gets a place in EuroLeague, and winner of Europe Cup gets a place in BCL. This information is stated right at official websites, and was added to the article with the sources, which were then removed, with the claim they were not legit sources, as were independent media articles from major sites, saying the same (were removed and said to not be legit). Anyway, like I said, I am not wasting time over this anymore. It's basic common knowledge of sports fact in Europe that the leagues are in tiers (actually as I said, it's fine for BCL and EuroCup to both be second tier, as that's how it is viewed independently), and that's actually how it is. But if there is so much very strong opposition to that from some here in Wikipedia, I am not wasting my time debating it. If dozens of official sources can't sway those opinions, there is no logical reason to keep discussing it. Also, on the idea these leagues are completely on their own merit and totally have no connection - that is wrong also. EuroLeague/EuroCup/BCL are all leagues governed by 50% of the clubs and leagues of those clubs. The only leage in Europe which prevents teams from playing in EuroCup is Greek League, but they allow teams to play in EuroLeague. Every single year the clubs in the leagues change, as none of the leagues are franchise based, and the same teams can play in a different European league every season, and some do. So it's not true, the leagues are totally separated, since each one of the leagues is controlled 50% by the clubs, and the clubs change from year to year, and many move through the different leagues all the time. For the leagues to be completely separated, they would have to have their own set of clubs, which none of the leagues have.Bluesangrel (talk)
Do you have a reference where the BCL champs play in the EuroCup? BCL champs AEK Athens didn't participate this year in the EuroCup for some reason; in fact they're in the BCL again this year. Surely a level-2 EuroCup appearance for them would be a bigger achievement that participating in the purported third level BCL? Howard the Duck (talk) 23:53, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
The finalists of BCL are invited to play in EuroCup. AEK does not play in EuroCup because the Greek League does not allow any Greek clubs to play in EuroCup. It's the only league in Europe that bans clubs from EuroCup. Otherwise AEK could be in EuroCup if it wanted to, but BCL pays clubs more money than EuroCup does, and has more marketing income, so a lot of clubs choose a contract with BCL instead of playing in EuroCup. AEK is one of them. Just like Brose Baskets that played many years in EuroLeague chose to play in BCL instead of EuroCup in order to make more money. Whatever team finishes in 3rd place in the Greek League, automatically gets a place in the EuroCup. But the Greek League bans the clubs from accepting it. BCL isn't the 3rd level. EuroCup and BCL are both considered 2nd level. There are 2 second level leagues, then a 4th level league in FIBA Europe Cup. And actually, BCL is probably quite a bit more prestigious than EuroCup is from a fan interest POV, since FIBA puts a huge investment in it (the BCL Final Four last year for example had a huge budget - whereas EuroCup finals is hardly even marketed), and a lot of very popular clubs with huge fan bases choose to play in it. While EuroCup in comparison only exists for EuroLeague to have a way to allow other clubs to win a place in it. It's mostly clubs with rich owners, trying to win a place in EuroLeague, but has very little attention paid to it, as most fans follow only EuroLeague. I put sources for the places for BCL in EuroCup in the article, which were removed. They are in the old versions of the article, before it was reverted. If I have time, I will look through them again. But it's clearly stated that they offer places to teams in EuroCup from BCL.Bluesangrel (talk) 02:34, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
Can you look for these again. "Offered" seems rather dodgy. If the other party isn't accepting it, it's good as none. I'd actually would love to read the actual article explaining how the pyramid is made. Reading your explanation, the Euroleague is the undisputed "level 1" although for some reason the membership is a hybrid of U.S. and rest-of-the-world where like 75% of the slots are reserved for some teams no matter how they finish in their domestic league, while the other 25% is for the best perfoming teams from 4 domestic leagues. Curiously, if AEK Athens wins their domestic league, they can't qualify to the "level 1" of the pyramid, throwing its "pyramidness" in doubt. More so if the difference between the so-called "level 2" and "level 3" is blurry to the point that it's interchangeable. I can probably understand the ranking of EL>EC/BCL>BCL/EC>FEC but to assign these leagues as levels in a pyramid in the manner like the NBA is "level 1" of the U.S. and Toronto pyramid, with the G-League and other minor leagues are level 2 and the college leagues are levels 3 to 5 (Divisions I to III) are most probably a misunderstanding on what a "sports pyramid" is, at least in a footballing context. Howard the Duck (talk) 05:14, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
It's the official rules of the league. Again, these sources were added to the article, then removed and said to be not legit. I will give the source from official league statement, but first a lot needs to be clarified here. AEK isn't allowed to play in EuroCup by Greek League anyway, so that makes no difference. If a non Greek team was a BCL finalist, they could change to EuroCup, if they wanted (some teams prefer BCL because the league has a bigger budget and more marketing and press coverage). EuroCup didn't get the champions AEK Athens to move (because Greek League won't allow it, and also because AEK has a contract with BCL), so they gave it to the 2nd place team AS Monaco instead, which moved to EuroCup this year. AS Monaco had no contract with BCL, and French League where they play domestically, allows teams to play in EuroCup. Being a league finalist in BCL gets you an invite to EuroCup. So AS Monaco being the BCL finalist, is now in EuroCup this year, per how the league rules work.Bluesangrel (talk) 17:35, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
Champions League is no different than EuroLeague in how they assign places for the clubs, it just looks that way, because BCL has 32 teams, while EuroLeague has only 16 teams, which gives a false impression that EuroLeague is more restrictive with places. It isn't, it simply demands a much higher standard of teams (the level of the league overall is far higher than EuroCup/BCL overall levels), so of course it will have much less teams in it. There are also numerous teams in Champions League with contracts. Just as an example from Greek League, which won't allow teams in EuroCup, so it is a good example - AEK Athens, Aris Thessaloniki, and PAOK Thessaloniki all have contracts with BCL. So they cannot play in any other league as long as those contracts exist (they all signed 3 year contracts when the league began), and they are guaranteed a place in the league, no matter where they finish in Greek League. Last year, Aris did not qualify for BCL based on where they finished in Greek League (9th place out of 14 teams). They were however immediately put into the BCL qualification rounds, because they have a contract. So the only difference for not qualifying in the domestic league is going into the qualifying round and not the regular season. Finishing in 9th place in Greek League does not even allow a team to BCL qualifiers - so very clearly it is a contract to the league (no different than some teams have in EuroLeague).Bluesangrel (talk) 17:35, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
This season, Hapoel Jerusalem left EuroCup and moved to BCL, and got a contract to play in BCL, no matter what they do in Israeli League. Brose Baskets Bamberg also decided to join with the FIBA BCL this season, because they didn't qualify to EuroLeague this season. Their finish in the German League was not good enough to make it into EuroLeague (4th place). They wanted EuroLeague to give them a contract, due to their large budget and rich ownership, and they did not get one. Instead, EuroLeague preferred to give a contract to Bayern Munich from Germany, because that club has a much huger fan base, and is building a big new arena. So rather than play in EuroCup this season (where finishing in 4th place in Germany would place them), Brose chose to move to BCL, and were given a 5 year contract by BCL. So they can play in BCL regardless of where they finish in German League - having a guaranteed place for the next 5 years, as long as they want it. So BCL is just the same exact model as EuroLeague (despite claiming it is not), they simply allow a lot more teams, with a lot lower standard. EuroCup (which EuroLeague controls) is also the same. Teams have all kinds of ways to get into EuroCup also, including numerous invites, and it also has more teams than EuroLeague (24 to EuroLeague's 16) and a generally much lower standard of what teams are allowed.Bluesangrel (talk) 17:35, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
Also, AEK Athens can play in EuroLeague if they win Greek League. League champions of the good national leagues get automatic places in EuroLeague. The Greek League champion has an automatic place in EuroLeague, so if AEK, or any other team from Greece, won the Greek League, they would instantly be in EuroLeague (as long as they accepted it, but no reason for them not to, unless financial problems - EuroLeague has a minimum budget rule for teams). And also, yes, it is almost always called and referred to as the European basketball pyramid. Even in the games, the FIBA announcers (who usually work for FIBA), say first tier on European pyramid EuroLeague, and second tier on European pyramid BCL / EuroCup. Just in the last BCL game I watched, they very clearly stated that right at the start of the game. I am giving a link to where you can watch that online for free, and the time stamp, so you can see this is exactly how it is viewed in Europe...Bluesangrel (talk) 17:35, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
Promitheas Patras versus Medi Bayreuth BCL game this season ---> [3] at the 5 minute and zero seconds mark of the video, they clearly state BCL is "the 2nd tier competition on the continent". So yes, that's exactly how these competitions are referred to in Europe.Bluesangrel (talk) 17:35, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
Promitheas Patras versus Besiktas Istanbul BCL game this season ---> [4] at the 6 minute and 40 seconds mark of the video, they clearly state BCL is "the 2nd tier Pan-European competition now, behind EuroLeague." So clearly stating the leagues are viewed as being in tiers, and BCL is viewed as a 2nd tier, and is below the top tier, which is EuroLeague. It simply is not correct that these competitions are not referred to as tiers, and as tiers compared to each other (otherwise known as a pyramid). It's just not correct at all, they are in fact exactly referred to in that way.Bluesangrel (talk) 17:35, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
BCL finalists have places in next season's EuroCup, if they want them ---> [5] - again, no reason for such legit sources (the largest European basketball sports media site) to have been removed from the article, with the explanation as to why simply being "not legit sources". Notice the same source also states clearly that the Greek League gets a place in EuroCup (its for the 3rd place team). So yes, Greek teams like AEK Athens (BCL champions), and PAOK Thessaloniki (3rd place Greek team) could both be playing in EuroCup this season, if they wanted to, and if not for the fact the Greek League itself bans them from doing so. For absolute clarification, from the EuroLeague's organizing body, Euroleague Basketball, which also controls the EuroCup competition itself ---> [6] - very clearly stated that Basketball Champions League finalists have access to EuroCup the next season, if they choose to do so, the same as they previously had the same arrangement from 2008 to 2012, when finalists of FIBA EuroChallenge could go to the next season's EuroCup.Bluesangrel (talk) 17:45, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
So from what I can see, there are more than 1 organizers organizing pan-European basketball competitions. Presumably, the BCL also "offers" champions of the biggest leagues like the Spain, Greece and VTB to their competition. While people can almost certainly say that there are "tiers", I could say that there are two "pyramids", the Euroleague/Eurocup on one, and the BCL/FEC on the other, just that the first one is viewed as the "tougher competition". This is sorta like the situation between the Football League and the Football Alliance in the late 19th century, wherein you could probably say the former is more competitive than the other, but since the former doesn't control the latter, it's not in the former's pyramid. Howard the Duck (talk) 00:31, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
There is no sports media in Europe that considers BCL as a separate tier from EuroLeague or EuroCup. It's universally considered as one of two second tiers under EuroLeague. That's what is odd about this debate here - it's literally basic sports facts 101 of Europe and not disputed in any European sports media. Even FIBA states it this way, so this is one of the more confounding debates here. The argument that because you have a different league organizer - for the last 15 years that is exactly what they did in European basketball. It was always that way as a fact - EuroLeague / EuroCup and then FIBA EuroChallenge under FIBA, since 2003. This has been a fact and always been this way. It never changed just because FIBA decided to replace with EuroChallenge with Champions League, which is simply a re-branding. If a separate organizer is what determines tiers, then why was EuroChallenge officially listed as the 3rd tier competition since 2003 and officially by all the leagues in question including both organizers? Since EuroChallenge had a different organizer from EuroLeague/EuroCup, it could not be on the same tier if that is true that different organizer means different tier, yet it was for 12 years..for 12 years FIBA itself said EuroChallenge was 3rd tier after EuroLeague and EuroCup. Bluesangrel (talk) 23:00, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
It's good enough that we're talking explicitly about "tiers" now, and not "pyramids", which is the term infoboxes use. Almost certainly BCL is "second tier", but it being on a pyramid with the Euroleague is distorting what the term "pyramid" means, at least on a sporting context. Again, the UEFA Champions League and UEFA Europa League doesn't add this in the infobox, and I'd suggest keeping this off in these leagues' articles for now as putting it in the infobox is oversimplifying things that should better be explained in the main body of the article. Howard the Duck (talk) 02:23, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

User:Bluesangrel, I think this was you added the tier parameter in FIBA Intercontinental Cup. Everyone who knows basketball knows that this is absolutely false. The usage of "levels" in basketball leagues in this way has been patently absurd and bordering on falsehood. (There's no "universal international league pyramid", nor is there one in Europe, as what has been determined here in our discussion. Perhaps an explanation in the prose would be okay, but using the sports pyramid parameter in infoboxes this way on basketball leagues is oversimplication at best, and falsehood at the worst. Howard the Duck (talk) 13:22, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

National team ranking templates[edit]

As, S.A. Julio did for association football, I've created {{FIBA World Rankings}} for having updated directly all the positions in the infoboxes of the national teams. Easier to do, and to have every article updated. Asturkian (talk) 08:25, 2 November 2018 (UTC)

Nomination of Tony Hanson (basketball, born 1983) for deletion[edit]

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Tony Hanson (basketball, born 1983) is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tony Hanson (basketball, born 1983) until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. Rikster2 (talk) 12:31, 27 November 2018 (UTC)