Talk:Gallery of passports

This article was nominated for deletion on 23 September 2009 (UTC). The result of the discussion was merge to List of passports.

Unorganized sections

Cyprus is a European Union member, it doesn't belong to Asia.--Alblefter (talk) 22:21, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It is a member of the European Union, but not always considered part of Europe. It is closest to Turkey (namely, Asia Minor) and, thus, physiographically part of Asia. Bosonic dressing (talk) 20:42, 22 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This page looks really more as gallery than as encyclopedia. In wikimedia commons is maybe more right place and there have like page [1] and this page is not good for wikipedias on different languages becouse some licences for some images of passports arent good. --Николов (talk) 12:34, 21 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Taiwan does not belong in the disputed states section

Taiwan or RoC is a disputed territory, but it is not disputed in the way the other territories on this list are. The RoC is currently recognized by many UN members, and has formal relations, but not recognition, from most of the rest. Per convention, Wikipedia does not take sides in the recognition dispute, recognizing both the PRC and RoC as valid states with overlapping claims and generally listing the RoC under the 'T' for Taiwan, the commonly used name. Listing Taiwan, under the moniker 'China', which in this article represents the PRC, is a complete and total disruption of long held guidelines about how to represent this country. Moving Taiwan to the "Disputed states" column also takes a POV unsupported by Wikipedia guidelines.

Bosonic Dressing appears to be taking ownership of this article, despite three or four other editors all disputing this presentation style. I do get a chuckle from his edit summary calling me an RoC POV pusher, because usually in RoC related discussions, I get called a PRC POV pusher. There is no love for the compromiser. SchmuckyTheCat (talk) 21:29, 28 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed--Earl of China (talk) 14:06, 29 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Taiwan/Republic of China belongs in the disputed states section, per List of sovereign states, etc. This commentator has yet to dissuade why it should be treated any differently from other disputed territories. In comparison, Kosovo -- whose populous actually voted for independence from Serbia -- is recognised formally by more than thrice as many countries than Taiwan/ROC, yet it (and other disputed entities) are listed in the disputed section per the list of states. To do otherwise or to alter the entry as such (thereby denying or diminishing that there's a connection between the PRC and ROC) deprecates its contentious status, which is in clear violation of neutrality guidelines indicating that content must be equitably dealt with. (Other vague talk of convention and uncited guideline, not policy, is not relevant.) A passport isn't a passport if few recognise it, particularly the PRC in this instance (since they reckon that it's the same domain already), and wishing something was different does not make it so.

As well, you certainly do not come across as a compromiser -- a disruptor, more like it. You cite 'three or four editors' who have disputed this presentation style; well, everyone's a critic, Wikipedia is a work in progress, others have supported it, and it was arrived at through process and stable until you and another who in effect can be characterised as a troll challenged Taiwan's/ROC's placement in the list. You cite ownership issues: enhancements wouldn't please me more, yet you nor your arguably nationalist compatriot have made any. As well, given your nomination of this article for deletion, your POV reverts and commentary above are nothing more than gibbering and will be dealt with accordingly. Bosonic dressing (talk) 21:56, 28 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about passports, not sovereignty. The question to ask is not whether the sovereignty is disputed, but whether the passport is accepted. The two questions are obviously very different because many countries that do not officially recognize Taiwan as a sovereign country do readily accept the passport as valid. Readin (talk) 14:12, 29 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This is a simplistic analysis: the two questions are different but interrelated, since a passport is issued by a governing authority that requires acceptance from like governments and their agencies -- that is why it is an international travel document. By your take, Taiwan/ROC -- and by virtue Kosovo, Abkhazia, Sealand, et al -- should be listed on par within every state list and gallery in Wikipedia. That affords those entities inequitable treatment, in violation of policy. Wide acceptance of the passport as you've indicated is supposition without cited basis: in fact, Taiwan/ROC ranks 54th among entities (among 89) by order of travel freedom. And, it is interesting you note 'sovereign country' but not 'sovereign state', since it may be the former but it is generally not considered the latter de jure given its lack of general international recognition. Bosonic dressing (talk) 17:30, 29 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It is unclear to me how the "order of travel freedom" rank is relevent. If it is relevant, Taiwan ranks above China, India, and Egypt, but below Turkey, Mexico and Brazil. Right in the middle of a bunch of countries whose passports you are not listing as "disputed".

Also, whether "Kosovo, Abkhazia, Sealand, et al -- should be listed on par within every state list and gallery in Wikipedia" is not the question here. First, we are not listing states; we are listing passports. Second, we are only discussing one list, not every list on Wikipedia.

What is relevant to an article on passports is the extent to which the passports are recognized as valid. Schmucky mentions historic and novelty passports, but one can't use those for travel or even for getting visas for travel. He also mentions NGO passports, and to the extent to which such passports are accepted we should include them in the gallery. Readin (talk) 19:20, 29 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I cited the order of travel freedom since noone else did, but editors seem fit to opine about how accepted this or that is.

As for 'each and every list', including this one, there is relevance in structure: is an entry for a passport (an international travel document issued by one state and recognised by others) from a state which most of the world does not acknowledge as such on par with those that are? Arguably not. Apropos, this article was based on the List of sovereign states -- I see no reason to buck that as yet.

Moreover, the intent of the gallery (per the lead) was to exhibit CURRENT passports in use, not the kitchen sink ... something which other articles (passport) and other galleries in the commons etc. do. Given the current of thought at this article's nomination of deletion (initiated by Schmucky), it will likely be merged ... so, why bother further? Bosonic dressing (talk) 19:39, 29 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

How about getting rid of the "disputed territories" subsections, and just listing all passports (whether from disputed territories or not) in sections for continents? Whether a territory is disputed is a complex issue best described in detail in the article on that territory, not easily summarized in a simplistic section heading. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 17:58, 29 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, thank you, it does not have to be political. Without explicit criteria, there may also be room for historic (USSR), novelty, or NGO passports. SchmuckyTheCat (talk) 18:15, 29 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Links to lists of countries

I inserted links to articles which list all nations/territories in the various continents. That edit was reverted (with a comment starting with "rv", which I believe stands for "reverted vandalism"), and calling those links "arguably irrelevant". That's malarkey. I'm willing to forgive the "rv", because the editor in question doesn't appear to use that prefix with that meaning. As for the links, they are VERY useful, for figuring out which countries aren't represented here. If the proposal to delete this page ends with merging it into List of passports, then that page should list ALL countries and territories, indicate which of them, if any, don't issue passports, and for those which do, include a link to the specific passport's article and a picture of the cover, if available. The logical conclusion toward which this article should strive is to be a list of every sovereign entity on Earth, with a picture of its passport if it issues one. Until then, in the interest of not cluttering this page up, there should at least be a one-click way to find out what is missing. EAE (Holla!) 22:33, 29 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

To clarify: 'rv' is short for ' revert ', while 'rvv' means ' revert vandalism '. Apologies for any confusion there. I still do not believe links in this gallery to continental country lists are particularly useful for previously stated reason, but rolling these links in may make more sense in a merged article as suggested, in which likely case a table would list all countries regardless of whether there is a passport article and/or image. Bosonic dressing (talk) 23:37, 29 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

unlock?

I just procured a picture of the Togo passport, would like to add it since the merge hasn't happened yet, can this page be unlocked? EAE (Holla!) 03:43, 6 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]