Talk:Gyōji/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Tate-gyoji resignation

Nashikawa, do you know when the last time a tate-gyoji or fuku-tate-gyoji was suspended or forced to resign after a sashi-chigae against him? I'd be very curious to know. :) Tadanisakari 19:23, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Regarding the suspension yes, it happened I think about 6-12 years ago, definately to the fuku-tate gyoji, who made one too many mistaken decisions, also as far as I remember he also failed to get out of the way of the rikishi on one occasion, was bowled over and was unable to decide on the outcome of the match, forcing the shimpan to decide. As I understand it part of the problem also was related to diabetes and not being able to keep his fitness up.

Regarding the resignation, I read that in a sumo book. I cannot remember the date but apparently the gyoji concerned actually tried to argue with the five shimpan during the mono-ii which was the final straw and led to acceptance of his resignation.

Sorry I don't have specific dates, although if I find them I'll add it to this talk page. Nashikawa 23:19, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Found the resignation one. It was in a book called "Grand Sumo" by Lora Sharnoff who stated that the twenty fifth tate gyoji had his resignation accepted in 1972 Nashikawa 23:32, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

The gyoji who suffered the suspension was the 29th Shikimori Inosuke who retired in 2000. I think the suspension may have occured in 1997, and/or possibly in 1999.Nashikawa 23:54, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Interesting! Thanks for the info. Tadanisakari 08:25, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Stub Status

This article is already quite long for what is a fairly tightly defined subject. It is difficult for me to see what needs adding to it. Hence I cannot see why it should be marked as a stub. If someone feels there is significant content needed here then lets discuss what is required. Nashikawa 20:45, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Association with Heya

Does a Gyōji ever officiate a bout with rikishi from his own Heya? My guess is no but it doesn't say so anywhere. --Full steam (talk) 11:02, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

There is no rule against this that I know of. Conflict of interest does not appear to be a concept in sumo. The shinpan, judges in black around the dohyo, are active owners/oyakata of stables in most cases and they officiate over their own wrestlers when they come up. ~ ~ ~ ~ (talk) 12:49, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Becoming Gyōji

A topic missing from the article is how one becomes a Gyōji. Is it quasi-hereditary? Can any teenage boy apply to become one? And how are they trained?Bill (talk) 23:20, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Very good question, and one I admit to knowing very little about. I did go and check the Japanese wiki article, which has next to nothing about how gyoji actual become gyoji and join certain heya. Definitely one to look up more information on. Yobidashi could be included in this interesting question as well. FourTildes (talk) 23:59, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

The gyoji's tachiai call

What does the gyoji call out right at the tachiai? It sounds like it could be "tachiai!", but sometimes "hakkeyoi!". I've looked around and can't find a clear answer, and many sites only say "hakkeyoi" is when there is a pause mid-bout. Any ideas? DrHacky (talk) 07:10, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

According to the Sumo Glossary, (and indeed, this article), when the tachiai is about to begin, the gyoji says, "mattanashi kamaete" (Time's up, prepare yourselves) Then when the rikishi clash he goes straight into "nokotta." I believe "hakkeyoi" is only used when there is a pause, as you say. I've never noticed a cry like the one you mention at the tachai itself.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 12:36, 20 September 2015 (UTC)

Funnily enough I asked pretty much the same question as you did on the Sumo Forum back in 2009 (not that i remember doing it) and there got the answer, "Jikan desu, te wo tsuite." That appears to be the "time's up, take your mark" instruction, not "matta nashe" which actually means, "no false starts" and which the referee sometimes adds. Looks like our article needs to be corrected.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 12:53, 20 September 2015 (UTC)

To be clear, I don't mean what the gyoji says before the bout starts, but what he says right after they clash.

Looking at the corresponding section in Japanese Wikipedia doesn't help much. From what I (and Google translate) can make of the explanation, I think it says that "while many people think 'hakkyoi, nokotta' (はっきょい、残った) is used to start the bout, sumo doesn't actually have a start signal." Perhaps this is meant to mean that there's no command from the gyoji to start, rather than saying that the gyoji doesn't say anything after first contact? But in any case, from watching the sumo on NHK today there's definitely a call. And in this YouTube video (youtu.be/_CWYkO2LeMY?t=50s - sorry for not linking, WP seems to have YouTube on a spam blacklist for some reason), I'm pretty sure it's "hakkyoi" or something similar. In this video (youtu.be/UWXufM4CkdU?t=2m) it's pretty clear too. I'm confused though- if it's so clear to me that something is being called, why isn't it mentioned on any of the expert sites? DrHacky (talk) 17:50, 20 September 2015 (UTC)

PS- For that matter, I'm not convinced "nokotta" is the only thing the gyoji says during the bout. In this fight (youtu.be/UWXufM4CkdU?t=2m25s) it sounds like "tararata", though I do hear "nokotta" from other gyoji.DrHacky (talk) 18:10, 20 September 2015 (UTC)

As the etc's below suggest, there are no set rules for what is said; which makes me inclined to not get over detailed in our article itself. I believe that other noise the gyoji says that sounds like tararata or the like may just be a stylized nokotta. If there is one thing I know for sure, when they do their gyoji voice, clear accurate pronunciation is not what they are going for, it can be pretty hard to simply hear the rikishi's names when they announce thetm. Here is what the Japanese wiki article says about words used on the dohyo by the gyoji, I left out some of the rarer usages, as when a mawashi looks to be coming loose:
Before time is up：
「かまえて」kamaete (prepare, get ready)
「見合うて」miaute (look at your opponent - I honestly think there is a typo here and it should be 見合って miatte)
「油断なく」yudan naku (be careful) など etc.

When time before tachi-ai is up：
「時間です」jikan desu (it's time)

Just at the tachi-ai：
「待ったなし」matta nashi (no "waits" = no false starts)
「手をついて」(hands down (touching the dohyo)
「腰を下ろして」hips down など etc.

when the tachi-ai is insufficient：
「まだまだ」mada mada (not yet not yet)
「待った」("wait" or false start)

in the middle of a bout：
「はっきよい」hakkiyoi (never heard a translation of this so I looked it up: "phrase shouted by a referee when both sumo wrestlers have stopped moving")
「残った」nokotta (you're still in)
「よういはっけよい、よい」yo hakkeyoi yoi (see above)
「進んで」susunde (go forward or advance)

The words I have heard the most on TV and being there are matta nashi / jikan desu / te o tsuite / nokotta / and yo hakkeiyoi, yoi

Hope this is of some help. I am not saying these are definitive, but they are a good base to work with I think. I'll let you make your own judgments what you would like to include, disregard, change etc.FourTildes (talk) 05:21, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

addendum - I've thought this for years, but I'm pretty sure that I now hear the gyoji say "ryote wo tsuite" not just te. I assume this reflects the fact that they changed the rules and both hands have to be touching the ground before they can go (technically anyway). I don't know when I started noticing this, but I have found no reference to it on the net. I maybhave a chance to clear some of these up today. FourTildes (talk) 21:59, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

I was actually at sumo yesterday, and thought about asking around, but honestly I didn't hear anything that doesn't largely fit with what is above. And they are definitely saying ryote wo tsuite (both hands touching). FourTildes (talk) 01:06, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

Anything I've seen for hakkeyoi only says it's used mid-bout when the sumo stop moving, just as it says here. I actually originally came here to find out what the gyoji says after they start and before he goes into "nokotta nokotta", but it's not explained. Now that I've paid more attention, hakkeyoi seems to also have the usage of "good start", but I feel that adding that to this wiki would count as OR and I can't find a ref supporting that. As for "ryo te o tsuite", it's kind of hard to catch on the TV broadcast, so I'll leave that up to you. Perhaps we could break out all the calls into a new sub-section, as in the Japanese wiki, and add Japanese text to each of them to make the style more consistent? DrHacky (talk) 15:30, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

picture

I changed the legend from Japanese to roman letters and added a .png that has been around since 2005 of a gyoji's costume. It is used on various wikis. I did start out translating them into English, but many of the words are not easily translatable in one word. A prime example is eboshi, which uses the kanji "bird hat" which sounds a bit ridiculous and has no other direct translation. I thought someone (me eventually?) could go in and make a section explaining each part of the costume at some point. What there is now is still better than what the other wikis are using, which is the unaltered .png with no roman letters. FourTildes (talk) 01:06, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

Looks good. There are some other diagrams of the same style on the Japanese article which could also be ported over. The only thing is I'd say move the uniform diagram out of the Responsibility section. DrHacky (talk) 15:30, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

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san'yaku-gyōji

What's the consensus of possibly adding a list of the current san'yaku-gyōji to this article? (There are four currently) JRHorse (talk) 01:59, 7 September 2018 (UTC)