Talk:Halo (safety device)

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The following Wikipedia contributor has declared a personal or professional connection to the subject of this article. Relevant policies and guidelines may include conflict of interest, autobiography, and neutral point of view.

Carboncounter1 (talk · contribs) This user has contributed to the article. This user has declared a connection.

Grosjean crash

The crash involving Grosjean is misrepresented both in the article and edit comments. The car did not explode. The car did not go through the barrier in one piece. The front end came through the barrier, rupturing fuel lines (according to the F1 organization). There was approx 100kg of fuel on board. An explosion involving that amount of energy would have been fatal. The back end of the vehicle was still, in one piece, in front of the barrier by the time it was removed from the circuit. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.84.93.82 (talk) 22:15, 29 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The length of the text about the Grosjean crash is far to long for this subject. Remove unnecessary comment about the crash, leave just the fact that the halo might have saved his life. Ambusy (talk) 15:38, 30 November 2020 (UTC) Man I was watching this live when it happened, for seven to ten minutes nobody spoke in the house, we all were holding our breath... Watching it on replay on the news is shocking enough, but watching it live and not knowing if the driver (a father, we shall not forget) will come out alive, waiting for the broadcasters to announce... Still get goosebumps Gmentis (talk) 08:43, 1 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Actual tests or computer simulation

In the following passage it is not clear if it was done with actual tests or computer simulation:

"The FIA for development examined three fundamental scenarios: the collision between two vehicles, a contact between a vehicle and the surrounding environment and collisions with vehicles and debris. Tests have shown that the halo system is able to significantly reduce the risk of injury to the driver. Moreover, in many cases, the system was able to prevent the helmet from coming into contact with a barrier using a series of accidents that had already occurred as a reference". Mobile mundo (talk) 17:18, 24 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

2018 drivers

I think the reception section could benefit from the opinions of some of the 2018 drivers. For instance Lewis Hamilton was initially against it but changed his mind after the presentation, Sebastian Vettel is in favour of the halo, while Kevin Magnusson is against the halo. Mobile mundo (talk) 17:27, 24 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

F1 2018

Who will take the 2018 f1 driver title? Zinwe Mazwi 98 (talk) 14:23, 16 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Who invented the Halo?

There are conflicting views over who actually invented the Halo. Mercedes F1, the FIA and Woven Technology have been linked to it but there are no citations provided. Who really came up with this invention? This needs investigation.Carboncounter1 (talk) 20:12, 9 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that this needs sources. A quick search of Google Scholar has brought up two papers in BMJ case reports^[1]^[2] neither of which are useful for the question in hand. They refer to a FIA press release which may not be great source in the circumstances but which we should at least try to track down. Wham2001 (talk) 20:37, 9 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Apparently it's a 27-minute video (sigh) which I am not going to watch now, but if somebody is interested it can be found here. Wham2001 (talk) 20:42, 9 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I have found an ESPN article^[3] which states that The Halo concept was first proposed by Mercedes – something more reliable would be good, but I think that would be enough to support a statement in the article. I'll come back here in 24 hours or so and put it in the article unless something better has turned up. Wham2001 (talk) 20:54, 9 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I am trying to get to the bottom of who invented the halo. My name is Gavin Palmer and I run a business called Woven Technology Ltd. I used to design for Formula 1 teams, but independently, at Woven's office, I created designs for a cockpit safety device that I called ‘Halo’ on 29th October 2014. I intended to present the concept to the FIA, but was not given the opportunity as they did not respond to my email. I have posted a copy of an original sketch on our website at woventechnology.com/halo.

Our computers and phones were hacked and my family threatened in the year preceding the launch of ‘Halo’ in Formula 1. I do wonder how this design arrived in motor sport as I did not disclose it, but there is a possibility that the design and device name were created separately. However it appears that neither Mercedes nor the FIA are on record as actually claiming to have invented it. As far as I can tell, no media source has so far disclosed the inventor of the Halo and I am the only person to have published an original sketch with a date and signature.

I have been to the police and was advised that my best course of action is through the civil courts at my expense.

I have written to Mercedes F1 and Formula 1 for clarification but have received no response.

Various media sources point to an article written by Auto Motor und Sport (around 24 Feb 2015) that alleges Mercedes came up with the idea but this has subsequently been removed. That article was quoted as saying that Mercedes proposed a solution to the F1 Technical Working Group. There was a jpeg linked to this article but I cannot remember who it was attributed to.

However, a subsequent article in Autosport Magazine Feb 22 2018 quotes Niki Lauda, previous Mercedes Chairman, as saying: “I was upset when the FIA came up with this halo thing in the first place.” It does not seem to make sense that a Mercedes spokesperson would attribute the design elsewhere when the common perception has been that the idea originated from Mercedes F1.

It also does not seem right that Mercedes F1 has been referenced on this Wikipedia entry for so long with no citation when Woven Technology cannot be referenced at all for lacking a citation.

I think it would be neutral of the Wikipedia community to at least reference Woven Technology Ltd in some way as no other organisation appears to have claimed ownership of the invention. Carboncounter1 (talk) 15:37, 10 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

A quick reply as I am late for work. As I see it there are two separate issues here. First is that the article is in very poor shape, with not much content and much of what there is unreferenced. That should be fixed with more and better sources, and content being taken from them in the usual way. I agree that if there is further controversial content in the article that is not supported by references then it should be removed.

Secondly, there is the issue of Woven Technology's claim. I think that can only go in the article if it's discussed by a secondary source independent of the company. Currently a search for "Woven Technology" halo on Google produces only two relevant links on the first page, both to Woven's website.

Carboncounter1, I understand that you are – rightfully so – very unhappy about what happened to your company and family, and I sympathise with that. I'm very appreciative of the calm and constructive attitude that you've taken here. But unless there are third-party sources describing the origins of the Halo, such as magazine or newspaper articles, that mention your work at Woven, then it can't go into the article.

If there are others watching this page then it would be helpful to have your input too, since so far this discussion has only been the two of us. And if anybody can manage to dig out electronic copies of the articles that Gavin mentions above that would be very helpful. Wham2001 (talk) 07:39, 11 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your direction Wham2001. I take your points.

Further info: Even Channel 4 presenter Steve Jones and presenter ex-drivers are saying they don't know who the inventor is. There is a very short YouTube video called 'f1 halo inventor' that shows media content following the Charles Leclerc crash. Channel 4, Steve Jones: ...The inventor of the Halo has probably got a big old smug smile on his face right now... or her face... How will Charles Leclerc be writing a Christmas card to the inventor of the halo if they don't know who he is?!

Can you reference this quoted YouTube source to say that official F1 tv presenters confirmed that they don't know who invented it? Carboncounter1 (talk) 09:20, 11 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'm afraid not. There are two issues. Firstly, we can't use YouTube videos as sources unless it's clear that the person posting them owns the copyright. I don't see any indication of that with the video in question. Secondly, the presenters don't explicitly say that they don't know who invented the Halo, so we would be putting words into their mouth. There's a Wikipedia term for that – synthesis – and it's one of the things that we aren't supposed to do. If we want to have some content in the article about the development of the Halo, what we really need is published reliable sources that discuss the matter directly, not at a tangent. Best, Wham2001 (talk) 18:36, 11 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Update from Gavin Palmer (now living in Australia):

Woven Technology Ltd operated between 2002 and 2020 and was dissolved on the 6th July 2021. Highlights included:

- Design projects for Oxfordshire Formula 1 teams, IRL and Champ Car manufacturers.

- [Woven Technology Ltd had a rest during the time Gavin had a permanent role, developing chassis for Brawn GP/Mercedes-Benz Grand Prix between 2009 and 2011].

- Designs for a device called ‘Halo’ (29 October 2014).Carboncounter2 (talk) 01:28, 27 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Gavin DW Palmer designed Halo.

Sue Palmer,

Church Gresley 109.156.168.229 (talk) 22:02, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Malone, James M.; Rosalie, Simon M. (23 May 2018). "Effect of a halo-type structure on neck muscle activation of an open-cockpit race car driver training under qualifying conditions". BMJ Case Reports. 2018: bcr–2017–224013. doi:10.1136/bcr-2017-224013. ISSN 1757-790X. Retrieved 9 September 2019.
^ Malone, James M.; Rosalie, Simon M. (7 September 2018). "Effect of halo-type frontal cockpit protection on overtaking". BMJ Case Reports. 2018: bcr–2018–225427. doi:10.1136/bcr-2018-225427. ISSN 1757-790X. Retrieved 9 September 2019.
^ Edmonson, Lawrence. "What is Halo and why is it being introduced in F1 for 2018?". ESPN. Retrieved 9 September 2019.

Wiki Education assignment: Technology and Culture

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 21 August 2023 and 15 December 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Dsimon98 (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Thecanyon (talk) 05:33, 12 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Malone, James M.; Rosalie, Simon M. (23 May 2018). "Effect of a halo-type structure on neck muscle activation of an open-cockpit race car driver training under qualifying conditions". BMJ Case Reports. 2018: bcr–2017–224013. doi:10.1136/bcr-2017-224013. ISSN 1757-790X. Retrieved 9 September 2019.

[2] Malone, James M.; Rosalie, Simon M. (7 September 2018). "Effect of halo-type frontal cockpit protection on overtaking". BMJ Case Reports. 2018: bcr–2018–225427. doi:10.1136/bcr-2018-225427. ISSN 1757-790X. Retrieved 9 September 2019.

[3] Edmonson, Lawrence. "What is Halo and why is it being introduced in F1 for 2018?". ESPN. Retrieved 9 September 2019.

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