Talk:Hammer's Slammers series

"notability question" lol

The content of this page used to be on the page for "Hammer's Slammers". It was forked to its own page several years ago with neither notice nor discussion. If someone wants to delete this page I'd be OK with it, but the content should be combined with the original page rather than simply deleted, because this is currently the best summary available on the web. 50.236.49.198 (talk) 13:00, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

Sadly, WP:ITSUSEFUL is not a good defense against lack of WP:GNG. I'll ping User:Daranios and User:Jclemens to see if they find anything to save this from deletion/redirecting? Disclaimer: I totally forgot but it seems it was me who split this fancruft into a stand-alone article here in 2010... _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:50, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

@Piotrus: Initially I found only short mentions in The Fortean Influence on Science Fiction, p. 142, and "Technomilitary Fantasy in the 1980s", but then I have come upon two PhD theses which talk about the Hammerverse/Hammer's Slammers series (as opposed to only the one book) for several pages each: The Reception of Homer in Modern Science Fiction Literature and A Literary and Cultural History of Military Science Fiction and the United States of America, 1870s-2010s. That's enough for me to establish notability. (Speaking of lol, the search was slightly complicated by the fact that Hammerverse in German means something like "awsome rhymes" ;-). Daranios (talk) 15:37, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

@Daranios But is there a stand-alone notability for the -verse here? I fully support having some plot summary in the article about the series, and I'd argue the series is notable. But having an article for the book seris and a separate one for the fictional universe may not be warranted for smaller entities like what we have here. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:20, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

@Piotrus: Umm, I guess I agree but do not see the problem: There is no rival article about the book series, is there? As it is, our article here treats both the series and overarching setting details. Likewise the PhD theses both treat the book series and the term Hammerverse interchangeably: Homer: "the Hammer’s Slammers universe—the ‘Hammerverse’—a series of novels and short stories published", History: "The stories of the Hammer’s Slammers series (popularly termed the ‘Hammerverse’)". So in my view the only question that remains is, is "Hammerverse" the appropriate title, or rather something like "Hammer's Slammers series". I'd actually tend towards the former, as it is a term put forward by all four suggested secondary sources. Daranios (talk) 15:40, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

@Daranios There is such a rival article: Hammer's Slammers. It is where this content was split from in 2010 by me... back then I was much more of an inclusionist, when it comes to fiction too. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:05, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

@Piotrus: But that article is about the inital book, not the series, and therefore a different topic/scope, right? When I had found only the two mentions I would have recommended a merge there, but with the two theses, I think a separate article is warranted. Daranios (talk) 10:11, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

@Daranios Good call, I missed that fact - I thought that article was about the Hammer's Slammers series. Which should redirect here I guess. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 16:19, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

@Piotrus: I fully support such a redirect here. Daranios (talk) 09:55, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

I'm going to bow out of this, because this is on my "to read someday" list, and I don't want to spoil it for myself. Thanks for the ping, though. Jclemens (talk) 04:24, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

@Jclemens Just a comment that I still haven't read it but I want too, as well :> _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:19, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

The original "fancruft" discussed the Fortean influences the author used for his work, and how the author incorporated those and his Vietnam-era experiences into a science-fiction story.

The current article is little more than a bibliography for the author's work and some spinoff works. I'm not sure what its benefit to Wikipedia is. 50.236.49.198 (talk) 21:22, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

The benefit is removal of unreferenced WP:OR violations. See WP:NOT. Wikipedia is not a place for someone to post their analysis of fiction, they can do so in blogs, magazines and like. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:22, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

@Piotrus:, let's get rid of this, or transfer it to Wikia. Drmies (talk) 15:44, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

@Drmies I see you pretty much did that (at least the fancruft material). Now we have some unreferenced but possibly encyclopedic information about the books/etc. that arguably could be merged, except it is unreferenced. Not that content in Hammer's Slammers is much better. The series is likely notable, per sources found by Daranios, so ideally someone would try to reference this stuff. I'd try it myself but as I noted above, I haven't read the series and I'd prefer not to spoil myself too much at this point... _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:26, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

Commenting after Piotrus (talk · contribs) made a post on my talk page asking for my input. To clarify:

1. Hammer's Slammers is about a 1979 book that is a collection of short series.
2. Hammerverse (Hammer's Slammers series) is about all of the more than 50 books in the series.

This entry in the Internet Speculative Fiction Database lists six book reviews for the 1979 book Hammer's Slammers. This is sufficient for the book to pass Wikipedia:Notability (books)#Criteria.

I found these sources that discuss how all of the stories in the Hammer's Slammers series got reprinted in three volumes:

1. Stanley, Steven (2006-07-23). "First of a military science-fiction series". The Roanoke Times. Archived from the original on 2023-05-09. Retrieved 2023-05-09.
2. Lardas, Mike (2010-12-05). "'Hammer's Slammers' 3 fun for military sci-fi fans". The Daily News. Archived from the original on 2023-05-09. Retrieved 2023-05-09.
3. "The Complete Hammer's Slammers: Volume One". Publishers Weekly. Vol. 253, no. 1. 2006-01-02. p. 40. EBSCOhost 20235468. Archived from the original on 2023-05-09. Retrieved 2023-05-09.

With Daranios (talk · contribs)'s sources and these sources, this is sufficient for Hammerverse (Hammer's Slammers series) to pass Wikipedia:Notability (books)#Criteria.

Unless there are sources that discuss the universe, I think that Hammerverse would be better be reframed as a discussion of the series rather than about the universe, so I agree with Drmies (talk · contribs)' removals of unsourced in-universe content.

Cunard (talk) 07:49, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

Thank you. I'd like to move this article to Hammer's Slammers series. Does anyone have any objections? @Drmies @Daranios @Cunard _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:07, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

From Daranios' comment here:

our article here treats both the series and overarching setting details. Likewise the PhD theses both treat the book series and the term Hammerverse interchangeably: Homer: "the Hammer’s Slammers universe—the ‘Hammerverse’—a series of novels and short stories published", History: "The stories of the Hammer’s Slammers series (popularly termed the ‘Hammerverse’)". So in my view the only question that remains is, is "Hammerverse" the appropriate title, or rather something like "Hammer's Slammers series". I'd actually tend towards the former, as it is a term put forward by all four suggested secondary sources.

I am fine with either title as reliable sources use both terms. I don't know which one would be considered the WP:COMMONNAME. Cunard (talk) 08:15, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

My sentiments exactly, as long as we have the second title as a redirect. Daranios (talk) 09:56, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

Whatever you say, boss! And hey, Cunard, how's it going? Always nice to see that old redlink of yours. Drmies (talk) 15:12, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

I'm doing well, Drmies. Always great to see you around, and I hope everything is well with you too! Cunard (talk) 09:12, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

@Cunard Just a side note - 50 books? I see the list at ISFDb, and I think most of the works there are short stories, not novels. Just wanted to clarify this for others, in case someone re-reads our discussion here and thinks the list of novels we have is grossly incomplete (our list, currently, lists 7 anthologies/novels in th main series, some omnibus/repackaged variants with other titles, adding to the confusion, and two related novels in related works). _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:45, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Piotrus (talk · contribs), I wasn't aware they were short stories, not novels. Thank you for the correction. Cunard (talk) 05:23, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

actual information about the series and works: "unreferenced fancruft"

literally just a bibliography: "this is fine" 50.236.49.198 (talk) 18:12, 5 July 2023 (UTC)