Talk:Hasta pura (military decoration)

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Some of the previous discussions about this article

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. per WP:SNOW Coffee // have a cup // ark // 20:56, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Arrow without a head

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Unsourced, suspected hoax per Wikipedia help desk Intelligentsium 16:53, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete A likely hoax. Doc Strange^MailboxLogbook 17:51, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Appears to be a hoax. GlassCobra 18:16, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete, because such a thing can't be verified to exist; however, there's no evidence it was a deliberate hoax that should count against the original editor. Cynwolfe (talk) 18:48, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Might have been intended to be funny. So it's an arrow without an arrowhead? "Hey Clenadis Excrementus, here's your award." "What is it, a stick?" "No, it's an arrow without a head, a symbol of our peaceful way of life." Mandsford (talk) 19:26, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Checked google and google scholar and found nothing. I support deleting.--TParis00ap (talk) 19:31, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. No evidence to the effect of this ever actually existing. That said, I call hoax - Rome, to my understanding, was a pretty militant society. --Dennis The Tiger (Rawr and stuff) 23:19, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Unverifiable, and non-notable if it should be true. The only known "source" actually copied it from this article as I documented at the help desk. PrimeHunter (talk) 14:08, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

Hi, I did not delete this article that you claim is "yours" (you do not own Wikipedia articles you create). I merely participated in an Articles for Deletion discussion about this article over two months ago, in which the result was to delete the article. I did not bring it up for nomination, nor was I the Wikipedia Administrator who closed the discussion and deleted the article based on the consensus of the discussion. I don't understand why you singled me out, since other users participated in the discussion. Doc StrangeMailboxLogbook 02:39, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Well, you promoted its delation. Why didn't you google it first? Robert Prummel (talk) 02:42, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

I did. No reliable sources came up. The link you posted on my talk page is not a reliable source. It seems to be a page involving some sort of online game, and the inclusion of the "[citation needed]" tag reveals that the whole page was copied from the Wikipedia article Roman legion. Doc StrangeMailboxLogbook 02:46, 1 January 2010 (UTC) Well, mayb~e this is a reliable source: It is mentioned in the second part of the Claudius novels by Robert Graves. See Claudius the God and his Wife Messalina. London: Arthur Barker, 1934; New York: Smith & Haas, 1935. Graves was meticoulis in these things. A civil servant called Claudius Balbillus is mentioned by Graves. His awards (the hasta pura and perhaps corona aurea) were given by Claudius during the Triumph to celebrate the conquest of Britain in 44AD. As a friend and part of the Emperor’s retinue, his awards, as much as his military rank, are likely to be entirely honorary. See http://www.legioxx.org.uk/xxdona.html Maxfield 1981, 160-161 In Latin the spear is called the "Hasta Pura". It is also mentioned in the article Hasta (spear). Are you going to delete that as well?

Robert Prummel (talk) 15:31, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Fiction books shouldn't be used as sources if you're trying to prove something existed in real life. Furthermore, in that link above, the term "Arrow without a head" appears nowhere in the text. Doc StrangeMailboxLogbook 16:18, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Indeed, I am sorry that the highly learned Graves didn't give a source. but Maxwell isn't fiction. As to the link; Hasta Pura is Latin for Arrow without a Head.See the German Source on http://www.gottwein.de/latine/LLLh1.php that states (not alltogether to the point because the Hasta Pura was not a phaleræ for bravery) this explanation: hasta Lanze, Stoßwaffe im Gegensatz zum Pilum] hasta pura Ehrenlanze, die einen Schaft aus Edelmetall und statt einer Spitze einen Knauf hatte. Sie wurde als Auszeichnung für Tapferkeit vergeben. (Source: Suetonius.Claud.28,1). Is this convincing enough? Robert Prummel (talk) 23:11, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Look, I'm not the person you need to be bringing this up with, because - as I said before - I was not the editor who initially suggested the article be deleted, the editor who nominated the article for deletion or the administrator who closed the discussion. If you wish to discuss something like this you can bring it up here or you could discuss it with one of those three editors I mentioned above. Doc StrangeMailboxLogbook 02:13, 2 January 2010 (UTC) I see that you have created an article entitled Arrow without a Head. It looks like an excerpt from the Hasta (spear) article. Arrow without a Head is a strange title for an article and, although I am no Latin expert, this seems like a strange translation of the term hasta pura. What is going on here? Gaius Cornelius (talk) 18:01, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Dear Gaius, The translation is quite usual, take "toga pura" that means toga without a (purple) rim. I decided to write about Roman honours after heving read about this Hasta Pura in a book by Graves. Robert Graves translates it as Arrow without a head. The same translation more or less is usual in German and Dutch. I will try and find out what the French make of it but I only know these five languages. Salve, Robert Prummel (talk) 23:49, 4 January 2010 (UTC) I think it would be a very good idea to change your article's name to Hasta pura (military decoration) so that it falls in line with similar article titles such as Armilla (military decoration) and Phalera (military decoration). You may find useful templates etc in those articles. I don't think many people will go searching for "Arrow without a Head", but you can keep it as a redirect. If you need help renaming an article, just ask and I can do it for you. Besides, renaming will avoid the inevitable kerfuffle that will start when a bot discovers that you have resurrected a deleted article. I had previously assumed that "pura" meant something along the lines of ritually or simply physically pure. Never mind. Issues around the correct translation can wait until later. Gaius Cornelius (talk) 17:26, 5 January 2010 (UTC) Thanks, Gaius. I have doone just that. Now let us see how others improve the article. Robert Prummel (talk) 15:14, 9 January 2010 (UTC)