Talk:How the West Was Won (TV series)

US standing?

This show was a smash hit with a lasting and deserved popularity in several European countries, but it's sometimes said that it didn't make any major impression on U.S. audiences. When you watch it, it certainly looks like it would have been a winner on the American tv market too - it's epic, exciting, suspenseful but not extremely violent and with solid scripting and acting. On the other hand, westerns were very out of fashion in America at the time. Could some Americans give their opinions on how much of an impression HTWWW made in the USA (or in Canada?) Was it a hit or a sleeper? Has it been re-aired later on?Strausszek (talk) 10:13, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Germany

The claim that it is or was successful in Germany is bullshit. The source claims as much, but how can I provide a source for a negative claim to counter it? The fact that there is no article in the German Wikipedia should at least give pause.-79.219.181.60 (talk) 14:16, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Number of episodes

Regarding the CN on the number of episodes, that's not generally standard in a TV article. If there were no episode list, or if it were incomplete, I could see how this would be necessary. But in an instance were there actually is a completed episode list, it's not needed. The count comes from the episode list. I'm not sure why the episode list summary was not in the article, but I have rectified that by transcluding it. And on the off chance that someone isn't able to count up to 29, properly formatted episode list tables include a "No. overall" column. Isn't that convenient? Butlerblog (talk) 21:14, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

And yet... the article has had several different numbers, in at least one case more than one at the same time... thus the "CN". I initially added the different numbers back as a list but decided that was a bit snarky, as your notes above. I suspect the issue that arose is due to the usual squabble about what constitutes an episode (written, filmed, finalized, aired, specials count or no, miniseries count or no, etc.), but it is of no matter and I simply don't know.

Should the number be disputed again, I will add back in the CN, again, and again encourage you not to remove CN tags without fulfilling them.

I would encourage you to avoid weak attempts (especially insulting ones) at humor on the talk page, and focus on the content instead.Shajure (talk) 00:46, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Specifically, for example ... 28 TV series episodes and 1 movie. Whoever initially put in 28 probably did not count the movie as part of the TV series. So, to avoid a dispute, we would have a wp:RS that said there were 28 episodes... or 26... or 29... or whatever is in the RS.Shajure (talk) 00:58, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

On further review, unless someone else supports the "no need for a source here" argument, I am going to leave the 29 and transclusion in place, and restore the CN tomorrow.Shajure (talk) 01:06, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

I agree that somewhere in the past, the likelihood of someone not counting the "movie" as an episode would be the likely reason for an odd number. And that very well could be due to not having the episode list on the page. But regardless, it's not a number that should be arbitrarily arrived at, such as by counting the number of episodes. The proper number should be taken from the overall number on the episode list, hence my mention of it. Clearly you were offended by that, which was not my intention. Neither was my intent humor at all - it was to point out that's where the number is supposed to be derived from. Why it wasn't transcluded previously I have no idea, but per MOS:TV it should be. The only time {{Infobox television}} specifically requires a citation for the episode count is if the total number of episodes produced is greater than the number aired (since it would then not match the episode list). Based on the infrequency of edits to this article, I very much doubt waiting a single day is going to result in another editor contributing an opinion. Either give it an appropriate amount of time or just restore the CN. I've stated why the episode count is not generally cited in a TV series article. Since you disagree, we're clearly at an impasse. Butlerblog (talk) 02:48, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Per the edit summary CN, per the talk page and history of changes without source. We don't derive content in WP, we use sources, I want to clarify for the record that taking the episode count from the episode list is not the same as Wikipedia sourcing itself as an unreliable source. That's how we do it for every TV series. Butlerblog (talk) 12:33, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

As per my comments at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Television#TV infobox episode count source, I do not support listing "29 episodes" here. I think List of How the West Was Won episodes should be renumbered (i.e. the backdoor pilot should not be listed as "episode 1"), and in the Infobox I think it should be listed as "28 episodes + TV movie" or "28 episodes + [[backdoor pilot]]" or something along those lines. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 20:33, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Agreed - Looking at The Waltons as a similar situation where the "pilot" was a movie the season before, it is not listed with an episode number. Any thoughts on whether a citation is needed, though? Or is it acceptable per WP:CALC that it come from the table? Butlerblog (talk) 20:47, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Finding a source for the number of episodes is likely to be challenging-to-impossible – even The Complete Directory to Prime Time Network and Cable TV Shows 1946–Present doesn't list the number of episodes for this show (though it does specifically mention that the 1979 season consisted of 11 episodes). Generally, "number of episodes" for TV series is done as a WP:CALC from the episodes table. (The issue that arises, of course, is if the episodes tables are in any way incorrect – then it's a problem...). --IJBall (contribs • talk) 20:57, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

The sources listed for the episode table are questionable, so I guess I'll start by verifying that info. After a verification of the list and a second editor (in addition to myself) from Television to agree that WP:CALC is standard for episode count, I'll ping Sharjure to see if they'll lift the CN. Thanks for your input. Butlerblog (talk) 21:07, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

@Butlerblog: A couple of points on those "sources" – IMDb cannot be used as an "inline source" (see: WP:RS/IMDb and WP:Citing IMDb), and TV.com both can't be used as an "inline source" and has been "deprecated" entirely as well (see: this WT:TV topic from April 2021). IMDb can be used as a External link though, so I would remove all current "inline sources" at List of How the West Was Won episodes, and instead create an 'External links' section with a {{IMDb episodes}}. In addition, Epguides also lists this series at [1], and while Epguides can't be used as an inline source, it can be used as an 'External link', so I would add an {{Epguides}} link to the 'External links' section for List of How the West Was Won episodes as well – Epguides could possibly be used as supporting evidence for "28 episodes" (just not as an inline source...). --IJBall (contribs • talk) 22:19, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Yep - I'm looking to remove all of those as sources. I already removed the one that was just a personal fan site. I was planning to move the remaining to external links. Thanks for the insight on Epguides. I had not looked at that. Butlerblog (talk) 00:35, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

A CN flag harms nothing, and may cause someone to find us a source. In the past, by CN-flagging an item, I have encouraged a knowledgeable authority to *BE* a source in the press, which was then cited. I suspect that is unlikely with an old series like this one. I do not support removing the flag. I do like the idea of mentioning the movie.Shajure (talk) 22:29, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

A {{citation needed}} tag is not useful in a case where such a source is not likely to be forthcoming, and for something that is trivially verifiable by other means. I don't support leaving it there... I do think going with "28 episodes + [[backdoor pilot]]" in the Infobox is the best way forward here – that kind of thing is done at other articles. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 22:52, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

And yet, there was a disagreement about what number to use. I won't restore it again, but I *strongly* object to removing it immediately after we went through a disagreement about an unsourced number with insulting snark.Shajure (talk) 23:09, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Noted. I already said that insulting you was not my intention. I'm just trying to move forward here. Butlerblog (talk) 00:44, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

There are "sources" – TV Guide (here and here) is another one. It's just that none of these are readily "inline citable" sources – at least not in the way that you want: with a clear statement that this show consisted of "28 episodes and 1 TV movie". That's not really the issue – the issue is: is the information verifiable? And, in this case, it's clearly verifiable that there was one 28-episode TV series, with a previous backdoor pilot TV movie. That's all we really need here. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 01:02, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

You need no further input from me. I see a clear consensus against my leave-the-CN-in-place and as I said originally would and will not add it again if there is even one additional editor who believed/believes it should be removed. It is ok to disagree, I have thousands of opinions: many will be wrong. :) Shajure (talk) 05:24, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

It's all good ;) I'll leave it in place until I get the cite/verification done on the episode list, since we need to trust the count for WP:CALC. This is one of those slightly obscure articles that turns out to be in need of some attention, so the fact that you pushed the episode count directly led to getting some necessary stuff looked at, so I appreciate your tenacity. And I appreciate IJBall giving good insight from the Wikipedia:WikiProject_Television perspective as well. Butlerblog (talk) 12:19, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Episode list vs DVD contents

The episodes mentioned in connection with the DVD release add up to 25. The episodes mentioned in the Episode box add up to 29 ("including Pilot"). Would anyone care to document the mismatch? Are episodes combined / dropped / what? --StephanNaro (talk) 10:48, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

The DVD evidently does not include the miniseries. ButlerBlog (talk) 13:57, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

Links to history pages?

It would be great if there were links to relevant pages for US history. 71.70.163.88 (talk) 13:03, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

Then join in. Here's how: Help:Introduction. ButlerBlog (talk) 15:04, 21 October 2022 (UTC)