Talk:International Legion (Ukraine)/Archive 1

Archive 1

Additional info - training and engagements

At current, we have the initial announcement of the formation and each country's response. It would be useful if we had more info on the training these people receive and where they have ended up, have they been involved in any major battles? I understand this info is foggy at present, but it would be useful for the improvement of the article in future. Solipsism 101 (talk) 18:02, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

Reaction from Spain?

I'm not turning up much with respect to a response from the Spanish government, but if anyone has details, that would be a great addition. Thank you. --Surv1v4l1st ^{╠Talk║Contribs╣} 01:15, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

Legal aspects

Given that Ukraine has ratified the United Nations Mercenary Convention, is this even legal under Ukrainian law? I doubt it would make a huge difference, Ukraine would renounce the treaty in a heartbeat if it that is case. 2600:1700:38E0:A040:BD41:CA97:C1EE:7E61 (talk) 19:16, 7 March 2022 (UTC) AL

If we were to deal with this issue, we'd need a WP:RS to do the analysis. If you look at the United Nations Mercenary Convention, it says in article 1 that a mercenary is: Is motivated to take part in the hostilities essentially by the desire for private gain and, in fact, is promised, by or on behalf of a party to the conflict, material compensation substantially in excess of that promised or paid to combatants of similar rank and functions in the armed forces of that party and Is not a member of the armed forces of a party to the conflict. These are both potentially not found as these persons may be paid at the same rate as conventional forces/not paid at all and they are actually enlisted in the armed forces of Ukraine, but it's way outside my academic expertise. Solipsism 101 (talk) 22:05, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

Name of the legion

According to the official website, it is the "International Legion of Defense of Ukraine". A455bcd9 (talk) 13:31, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

Interesting. Both The Times and The Financial Times say that Ukrainian government call it the "International Legion of Territorial Defence".[1][2] I am not sure if they had a rebrand since? Solipsism 101 (talk) 22:19, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

 Action required – The President of Ukraine (Volodymyr Zelenskyy) refers to it as the International Legion for the Territorial Defense of Ukraine on his official website here. That name is also used on the VisitUkraine website here, the ukrforeignlegion.com website here (which says further down to "contact the Embassy of Ukraine in your country asking to join the International Legion for the Territorial Defense of Ukraine") and the defendukraine.ca website here, as well as by various media outlets, such as the CBC here and the National Post here. Based on that evidence, it would appear that the full name is the International Legion for the Territorial Defense of Ukraine. An editor above mentioned the website at fightforua.org (which indicates a slightly different name), but that site may have been put together is a hurry, which is understandable when your country is being bombed. If others agree, then perhaps the article and its title can be amended accordingly. -- Blairall (talk) 22:24, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

Date format

The format used for dates throughout the article should be consistent per MOS:DATEUNIFY. The British English format (day-month-year) appears to been the one being used when the article was created and, thus that's probably the one that should be used unless there's a reason to change it to some other format per MOS:DATETIES or there's a consensus otherwise established to switch formats. -- Marchjuly (talk) 11:45, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

Since it appear that British English is what is being used for the article, I've changed the few dates written in American English to British English. Something else that might need to be sorted out is whether it's absolutely necessary to list the year "2022" for the dates as well. Some sections simply state "On 3 March", "In early March" or something similar without the year, while other sections give the full date (e.g. "On 3 March 2022", "In early March 2022"). If the year is clearly understood from context, the mentioning of it may not be necessary. Regardless of the style is chosen, however, the format should be as consistent as possible. -- Marchjuly (talk) 23:02, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

Allowed vs. not prohibited

I would like to note that in some jurisdictions there is a difference in legal terms between "allowing" something and something "not being prohibited". The term "allow" indicates that whatever is allowed is mentioned by law, whereas "not being prohibited" indicates that the law does not mention anything on the matter in question. 2A02:AA1:1010:5BC8:3087:A958:F02F:48AC (talk) 22:16, 19 March 2022 (UTC) Another notable person who has joined the legion https://twitter.com/MichaelGrimmNY/status/1505604846669467664 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Snguberman (talk • contribs) 18:39, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

Special Forces wing?

Does the Ukrainian International Legion have a Special Forces wing?, if so we could add official sources to the article. As of this time it appears to be a ragtag force made out of haste and with a few voluntary detatchments of militias in these desperate times. Wunghuang 19:37, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

Casualties

I found this on the French wiki[3] and translated it. Can it be useful?

Foreign volunteers killed in Ukraine as of 2 July 2022

Country	Volunteers killed	Source(s)
Georgia	16
Belarus	7
Brazil	3
Azerbaijan	2
United States	2
France	2	·
United Kingdom	2	·
Germany	1
Australia	1
South Korea	1
Denmark	1
Spain	1
Netherlands	1
Czech Republic	1
TOTAL	41

Mhorg (talk) 14:42, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

Added to the article. Perhaps it should be checked whether all numbers presented are supported by sources. Can any other colleagues help me? Mhorg (talk) 09:34, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

References

Mercenaries

Doesn't the IFDU qualify as a mercenary group? They aren't official members of the UAF and behave more like Wagner. 209.171.85.51 (talk) 23:10, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

Bad sourcing (source 45/ (In July 2022, the legion reported a shortage of recruits due to pro-Russian propaganda and a dip in media coverage on Ukraine.[45])

hello fellow wikipedians, it has come to my attention that source 45 is a bad source, as the sources originates from RT/Russia Today. i dont think i need to state that using a source from Russia Today about how Ukrainian recruitment has dropped because of Russian propaganda is a bad origin for sourcing ( the offical source 45 https://www.massnews.com/ukraines-international-legion-suffers-recruit-shortage-analysis/

the actually source of the claim https://www.rt.com/news/559477-ukraine-international-legion-shortage/ ) ThatGuyNamedSeth (talk) 00:54, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Usage of 'Defense'

Apologies if this sounds a bit nitpicky, but the official English name of the legion uses the British/Commonwealth spelling. This can be seen on both official websites and even the emblem displayed in the infobox of the article. According to Wikipedia's own guidelines on consistency within articles, in relation to different varieties of English, "proper names use the subject's own spelling, e.g., joint project of the United States Department of Defense and the Australian Defence Force; International Labour Organization". Considering this, shouldn't Defence be the favoured spelling? 2A00:23C6:4195:ED01:5455:599A:AA41:1D8B (talk) 01:10, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

Good point. I've moved the article. Kleinpecan (talk) 01:23, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

Requesting article or at least addition here of the Polish gangster Piotr Kapuściński

Piotr Kapuściński "Broda" is a former Pruszków Gang underboss and convicted criminal turned a famous crown witness for prosecution in many cases, who's been now again wanted in Poland for several years (still is: [4]) and meanwhile was hiding in Ukraine where he was repeatedly arrested for his crimes commited in Ukraine (but not extradited), yet in 2022 was allowed to join the Foreign Legion where would pretend to be a Russian-speaker named "Sasha Kuchynsky", holding an official rank of sargeant (maximum for a foreigner) but calling himself a colonel (even wearing colonel insignia) and quickly becoming a de-facto commander of the GUR-led win of the legion. He apparently remains on this (unocofficial) post to this day.

As detailed by Kyiv Independent helped by Belligcat, "Sasha" has continued to be a criminal but now a war criminal, including various abuse of subordinates, causing needless casualties, theft, gun-running, and looting.

There are many press articles about him, including many Polish articles (but no Polish Wikipedia article).

He's actually mentioned here in an article, as here-unnamed "one of the unit's commanders is an alleged former member of a criminal organization from Poland, wanted at home for fraud: the Legion's fighters accuse him of abusing power by ordering soldiers to loot shops, threatening soldiers with a gun, and sexually harassing the legion's female medics". As they say - "say his name" (and make him an article).

For that matter, the Pruszków Gang and its splinter faction Mokotów Group also need articles. These 2 were among the most (in)famous Polish organized crime groups of all time. Polish Wikipedia articles: [5][6]

Also also, meanwhile there was a follow-up KI article on December 1, expanding on allegations, also against other commanders (in particular Major Vashuk and Lt-Col. Bohdan, both Ukrainians and real officers unlike the fake-colonel Kapuściński): https://kyivindependent.com/investigations/investigation-international-legion-misappropriation

Back to Kapuściński, he has a long history of pretending to be a Russian: [7] This is reflected in one of his Polish crime world names, "Rusek", which you can also see his in his wanted notice. His main speciality has been always fraud, and this is what he's currently wanted to, going straight back to prison for 6 years if Ukraine ever extradites him to Poland instead of keeping on to allow him to stay an international-criminal-official due to his long-standing "Eastern" criminal connections (going back to the Soviet times - he's old, thus his another crime name "Tatko" - Daddy).

There's been a plenty about him in Polish media (just search for his name, with TVN24 in particular having also helped KI in their journalistic investigation into the Legion's corruption: [8]), but apparently very little in Ukrainian media (as noted here: [9]).

5.173.81.130 (talk) 21:22, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

This is poor sourcing and probably WP:SYN, but the story had continued [10] with allegations of light weapons misappropriation (all of that are mostly allegations at this point). My very best wishes (talk) 22:44, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

Kapuściński personally and openly admitted his identity and past crimes to DW: [11] so it's not allegations about at least that. He's wanted in Poland for more than 70 crimes he "allegedly" commited in Poland before fleeing to Ukraine in 2015 ([12]), in addition to the crimes he's already been sentenced for (which means that if he's ever extradited by Ukraine he goes straight to prison for these for over 6 years), and was arrested and charged in Ukraine repeatedly in the late 2010s too for the "alleged" crimes in Ukraine.

And he's being talked in this Wikipeida article right here already but he's just not being named. It's also more than theft and illegal sales of guns, he's being "alleged" of all sorts of gangster shit in the Legion, like death threats and ordering looting, in addition to sending people (foreigners) to their deaths. But Wikipeida protects him and won't even name him, a self-admitted (boastful about kidnapping people and moving "lots" of cocaine) career criminal wanted in his country (the country that's is Ukraine's closest ally), not unlike how like Ukraine protects him for some reason.

(The mysterious reason being obviously corruption, maybe the recent wave of firings including in presidential administration will finally change something in this matter.)

Oh, and he told DW that he is,in fact, the commander of the Legion, too. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.254.153.61 (talk) 08:15, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

Ethnic composition of the foreign fighters

Hello fellow Wikipedians, I am about to write an article about this topic in Hungarian language and I have a question regarding the ethnic composition of the foreign forces. This page says that the exact share of the different nations is unclear due to safety reasons, while I read quite exact figures in the Hungarian media (eg. on Portfolio.hu, wich is widely considered as a reliable source), like 31% of the fighters are American, 18% British, etc. The news article says the data is directly from the Foreign Legion. Can you help me with this issue? Cheers:--Freewales (talk) 11:34, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

Article name

According to WP:CONCISE / WP:PRECISE the name of the list should be shortened. Uwdwadafsainainawinfi (talk) 11:43, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

Start a requested move. Do not move pages without discussion. Super Ψ Dro 11:58, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

Thanks Uwdwadafsainainawinfi (talk) 12:01, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

Why has this been deleted now? Uwdwadafsainainawinfi (talk) 12:25, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

You need to create a talk page section as advised at WP:RSPM. Prolog (talk) 13:36, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

Thanks again :) Uwdwadafsainainawinfi (talk) 14:05, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 11 March 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal (talk) 15:40, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

---

International Legion of Territorial Defence of Ukraine → International Legion (Ukraine) – According to WP:CONCISE / WP:PRECISE the name of the list should be shortened. Uwdwadafsainainawinfi (talk) 13:57, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:NATURALDISAMBIGUATION. But I would be fine with moving it to Ukrainian Foreign Legion for a shorter title. Rreagan007 (talk) 19:59, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

  would also fit Uwdwadafsainainawinfi (talk) 03:00, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

Support as an improvement, as the current title is unnecessarily unwieldy, and doesn’t satisfy the WP:CRITERIA very well. If paranthetical abbreviation is unacceptable, then International Legion of Ukraine or Ukrainian International Legion might fit the bill.  —Michael Z. 08:35, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

• Support. Super Ψ Dro 09:18, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

Support. Although I think we should take WP:COMMONNAME into consideration for this matter. If most of the sources describe the formation as International Legion of Territorial Defence of Ukraine, then it should stay that way. Although the common name I have heard for it is simply the Ukrainian International/Foreign Legion. It's possible to leave a redirect to the article for one of the two proposals. Ola Tønningsberg (talk) 23:23, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Problem with Casualties

For some reason, aid workers are being listed as casualties for the International legion. Why? There is a clear distinction between fighters of the international legion and aid workers from foreign countries. We should more stringently review the casualties and remove aid workers. Scu ba (talk) 15:31, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

The legality part

The legality part seems very flawed and uninformed - should this not be updated? If a news article that is sourced says that it's gray zone, it's usually legal. Some cases are also marked as "disencouraged" but not illegal, so it's not unclear. To mark it "unclear" shows that the article's editors have no knowledge about law or the matter and that this part is very lacking. I'm not a wikipedia user usually since some editors spew their stuff here and get proven wrong later even after whining to their favourite mods and getting their edits protected, but consider looking into it more for this article as I won't edit. 2001:14BA:A301:ACE8:0:0:0:1 (talk) 22:21, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Paragraph on early war recruitment

I've given this a cleanup flag and made this topic to avoid an edit war. I believe that the paragraph in question should be deleted entirely, because it was a single anonymous source that does not seem to reflect the overall sentiment - since, after all, the selection criteria broadened. A later source corroborating this, from a more reliable (non anonymous) source is necessary.

If someone agrees that the paragraph should be deleted outright, please do so. I am only doing this to avoid edit warring. Just-a-can-of-beans (talk) 19:09, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

It seems OK to have such section, but I removed a duplication of this in another section. My very best wishes (talk) 19:21, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Join the army

mai army join karna chahta hu. Chandan Kumar766 (talk) 14:41, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Hola soy cabo segundo del ejercito de Venezuela ya cumpli con mi servicio y quiero ir de voluntario ah ucrania que posibilidades hay 179.1.198.62 (talk) 16:10, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

y mi nombre es Jesús Daniel Beroes duran cl es 30.546.733 y vivo en colonbia en arauca me pueden llamar al número 3133754040 179.1.198.62 (talk) 16:12, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Notable criminals who joined the legion

The subsection titled 'Notable criminals who joined the legion' should be deleted I believe. None of the people listed are/were in fact notable criminals. Two of the supposed "criminals" that were removed last week were either found not guilty of all criminal charges, or the charges were stayed before trial began. One of the still remaining people mentioned in this section is currently awaiting trial and is presumed innocent until proven guilty. Another was a juvenile offender whose crimes will never be disclosed, the others are a drug dealer, and a common gangster thug.

I propose deleting this subsection as the subject of criminality with the legion is covered elsewhere in the article and this adds nothing pertinent to the article.

--2607:FEA8:E983:F200:41C8:3122:7963:59A5 (talk) 18:45, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Regulation of Foreign Military Assistance Act, 1998 now has a page

The Regulation of Foreign Military Assistance Act, 1998 is mentioned in this article, but not linked. I propose linking it. --DarthCloakedGuy (talk) 22:30, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Ok why not. TylerBurden (talk) 19:18, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 August 2024

Change Turkey Unclear to Illegal

Turkish penal code article 320 (Turk ceza kanunu madde 320):

Recruitment, enlistment in foreign service

ARTICLE 320. - (1) Anyone who, without the permission of the Government, recruits soldiers from among the citizens within the country to work in the service of or in favor of a foreigner or a foreign State, or who arms citizens, shall be sentenced to imprisonment from three years to six years.

(2) The penalty shall be increased by one third if among those recruited or armed are soldiers or persons of military service age.

(3) Anyone who accepts the service referred to in the first paragraph shall be sentenced to imprisonment from one year to three years.

Throat0390 (talk) 00:52, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. TylerBurden (talk) 18:58, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Casualty figures need updated.

The casualty figures for the Legion are in desperate need of being updated, they have not been updated since 17th June over 2 months ago. It is of course hard in the fog of war to get confirmation of casualties and their nationalities but surely there is some information out there, just moments ago I read a report about an Irish volunteer who is missing presumed dead and I imagine there have been quite a few others since June 17th. 2A00:23C8:90A:1601:288D:4963:FAE2:B1AC (talk) 00:51, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Two months is not a particularly long time for a specific unit, WP:RS are needed for such updates. TylerBurden (talk) 16:05, 25 August 2024 (UTC)