Talk:Intersex rights in India

Redirect

Hijra is synonym or another word for "intersex". See[1][2][3][4][5] and then the page provided same sentences that are already mentioned on Hijra (South Asia), that's why a redirect is only choice. Raymond3023 (talk) 06:48, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

The first two citations make the claims that intersex and hijra populations overlap. They do not support your assertion. Nor is there any association between hijras and individuals like Santhi Soundarajan and Pinki Pramanik who were born with intersex conditions but who do not meet a basic criterion of being hijra, such as by not being assigned male at birth. Trankuility (talk) 06:52, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

You can point out only 2 sources? Though you are misrepresenting them. There is clear academic consensus as well as any other kind that these terms are same. Either you were unaware of Hijra (South Asia) or you are too enthusiastic about this subject. But that's contrary to WP:NPOV. Do you want me to bring other 1000s of scholarly sources that support my argument? So far you have none to support yours. Raymond3023 (talk) 07:02, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

Read the sources on the page, notably the WP:MEDRS sources between 6-11. This is not a competition. Trankuility (talk) 07:08, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

I absolutely agree though that this article is written in violation of NPOV. India is described as having one of the best rights for intersex but you have made an opposite version of Hijra (South Asia) by making cries of human rights violations. Orientls (talk) 07:16, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

How does it justifies the existence of this article? Yes Hijra is Intersex[6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13][14][15][16], every academic agrees. You have to already agree by now. Raymond3023 (talk) 07:19, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

Your sources equivocate. Notable subjects are clearly intersex without being hijra. There’s nothing more to prove. Trankuility (talk) 07:23, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

It took you only 3 minutes to read all of them? I can't believe, your misrepresentation of source speaks for itself. Raymond3023 (talk) 07:26, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

Your sources contain helpful highlights, and they make the very clear point that hijra is an identity that in the West would be called transgender. Most of the sources distinguish intersex conditions from that identity. Trankuility (talk) 07:35, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

Because you are not reading the reliable sources, let me detail them here:

• "hijra are also considered intersexed persons"[17]
• "Urdu word“Hijra”is 'eunuch' commonly used translation is 'intersex (hermaphrodite)."[18]
• "Another issue peculiar to India, in connection with intersex disorders, is that of the hijras."[19]
• "The most widely used English translations of the word hijra, which is of Urdu origin, is either “eunuch” or “hermaphrodite” (intersexed)"[20]
• "Hijra A transgender person who is biologically male who takes on the gender role of a female. Hijras in India have their own form of social organisation and form a parallel society. Hijra is the most commonly used term for the “third gender”. Often referred to as “eunuch” in India, can refer to intersex".[21]

If you think that you can misrepresent sources, you are just reducing the amount of good faith that we could assume on your part. Raymond3023 (talk) 07:36, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

Play the issue, and not the editor. Here's a new paper by the UNDP: "There are some overlaps, but also many differences, between the experiences of intersex and transgender people. Yet, as Section 3.2 illustrates, terms and legal provisions across this region frequently conflate the experiences of both groups. These include third gender terms used in South Asia that assume a person’s gender identity is based on innate biological differences to sex characteristics, particularly genitalia. As Section 8.2E describes, such perceptions have influenced definitions and eligibility criteria for affirmative action measures for transgender communities in South Asia." Legal Gender Recognition: A Multi-Country Legal and Policy Review in Asia. UNDP in Asia and the Pacific. 2017. Retrieved 2017-12-12. Trankuility (talk) 07:40, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

Transgender and intersex refers to Hijra. So? Raymond3023 (talk) 07:45, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

This explains your reasoning, and so you should really go and read intersex and transgender. Trankuility (talk) 07:47, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

The term Hijra means them,[22] why do I have to read Transgender and Intersex? When my assertion is supported by reliable sources. Raymond3023 (talk) 07:51, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

Onus is on you Trankuility, if you can produce as many sources as Raymond3023 that would confirm that Intersex has nothing to do with Hijra, if you can't then redirect is clearly the only option. The human rights abuses that you have written about, they are already covered on Hijra (South_Asia)#Social status and economic circumstances, you have mentioned Gopi Shankar Madurai but a there is lengthy amount of content dedicated to Madurai on Hijra (South Asia). This article cannot be taken to AFD because no one is asking for deletion, only redirect. Capitals00 (talk) 07:52, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

On the contrary, the assertion that hijra and intersex mean the same thing is not supported by the supplied citations. The sources given on this page typically state that some hijra are intersex, and some intersex people are hijra, which is like saying that some hijra are dalits and some dalits are hijra, no more than that. Trankuility (talk) 07:54, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

It could be that you don't understand that term. Read [23] there is also a "Hijra Intrasex" community.[24] Also one of the source provided above [25] says Hijra translates as “eunuch” or “intersex”. What you are actually missing? Capitals00 (talk) 08:03, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

But that does not mean that the terms refer to the same concepts. As repeatedly stated on this page and in the sources (including the quotes from sources presented above by Raymond3023), the terms are overlapping but not identical! That is crucial, but it is also important that this article discusses the rights of a group of people, while the Hijra is not primarily about rights issues. The article should absolutely not be redirected, it would be misleading in various ways. I mean, what about intersex people in India who are not Hijra? --bonadea contributions talk 08:29, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

All intersex people in India are referred as Hijra. That's why this article is redundant. Raymond3023 (talk) 08:32, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

Not even one source says that those terms are overlapping, that's blatant misrepresentation of the source. Raymond3023 (talk) 08:39, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

I am still not seeing any sources. You need to wonder why we don't have Transgender in India but we do have Transgender in the United States, because those terms including intersex are already specified under "Hijra", as per scholarly sources provided above. You are creating a great huge confusion because everyone in India including government, activists, law and order, treat intersex as Hijra. Just transfer some content to Hijra article without WP:SYNTH and redirect this article there. Capitals00 (talk) 08:36, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

@Bonadea: You need to read "Hijras, as they are locally known, have a long history in South Asian culture and includes eunuchs, intersex people, and transgender people. Hijras are recognized under law as the “third gender.”"[26] I am not seeing any reason not to support redirect. Anmolbhat (talk) 09:02, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

Transgender and intersex are not synonyms - they refer to different groups of people with different gender identities! But even if hijra and intersex were in fact the same term, referring to the same people (note that the sources do not support this, even the ones explicitly quoted above) the articles would have had a different scope. Rights versus general background/description. --bonadea contributions talk 10:16, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

Which country you are talking about? This useless article is about India though where intersex, transgender all are Hijra. "even the ones explicitly quoted above) the articles would have had a different scope"??? Read WP:NOT#OR. Raymond3023 (talk) 10:19, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

Read Hijra (South Asia)‎ and also read this the Guardian article[27] which says "Hijras, who can be eunuchs, intersex or transgender, have been part of South Asia's culture for thousands of years." Raymond3023 (talk) 11:51, 19 December 2017 (UTC)