Talk:Jehovah in the New Testament
|WikiProject Christianity / Witnesses||(Rated Redirect-class)|
- 1 Other Translations in the NT
- 2 Religion and Wikipedia
- 3 That which is asserted by some to be "Fraudulent"
- 4 Long list of Bible versions in article
- 5 The actual long list of versions that differ from the original Bible
- 6 Dead Sea Scrolls information
- 7 Images of non-Septuagint fragments from unidentified Greek documents
- 8 Tetragrammaton in reference to Jesus
- 9 The box
- 10 Castanea and Totally Disputed tag
- 11 Redirect
Other Translations in the NT
Quote: "... since it is well established that the New Testament quotes the Septuagint extensively (and apparently exclusively), the other texts may not be relevant to the text of the New Testament..."
The text above is found in the conclusion of the article as it currently stands. This is simply a fabrication. Paul is (supposed to be) the author of some 13 of the 27 books in the New Testament (NT), yet he almost never quotes from any extant copy of the Septuagint. The Epistle to the Hebrews makes extensive use of the Septuagint, as do some of the Gospel writers. It is demonstrated in the Greek-English New Testament which verses are drawn from the Septuagint. This is done by the use of a symbol like this in the margin alongside the verse reference.
In Paul's letters, one never find this symbol in the margins, because his quotations are generally from his own translation of the Hebrew text, or at least this is the supposition. This quote should definitely be changed in the text of the article. It is unsupported.
- Yonah mishael 18:26, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Religion and Wikipedia
To be clear
Currently, a religious sect called The Jehovah's Witnesses is attempting to hijack parts of Wikipedia by using certain articles as free bandwidth. Any consensus from the Wikipedian community is ignored and eliminated to express its and only its views.
Who determines who or what is a sect! Based upon the religion established by Jesus and his apostles (The Way), all religions of Christendom must be sects, Catholics, Protestants, Baptists, Orthodox, etc. Or is it based upon that the bullies can use derogatory names for the little ones? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.127.116.11 (talk) 03:59, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
Materials published by the JW Vatican (the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society), and JW websites, forums, tracts, etc may be used to describe JW dogma where relevant only.
For example, If JWs wish to express their own beliefs, they are welcome to start a new article, such as "Jehovah's Witnesses' doctrines in regard to Jehovah and the New Testament." That would be fair use of free bandwidth. - Cestus Cd 01:52, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
- You have not offered ANY attempt to address my sourced edits despite being invited to do so multiple times over the past five days. Contrary to your lie, you are the one who has totally ignored proper wiki editing guidelines by ignoring me and my sourced information. You havn't even directly addressed me at all, instead opting to instigate and continue an edit war. I even left the article totally alone for two days so you could address my concerns without feeling antagonised. All efforts to gain your input have completely failed. To be clear, and again contrary to your nonsense above, it is you who has "hijacked" this article.
- Here is a comprehensive look at the problems and factual errors with this article. I have already provided ALL of this information via the edits (themselves), and the talk section Castanea and Totally Disputed tag.
- This article is based on, and revolves around the unsourced and unequivocally wrong claim (a claim made SEVEN TIMES in the article): "The Septuagint does not contain forms of the word YHWH". The source given for that claim is an online order form for Septuagint computer software, however, the source does not verify the above claim, nor does it address our subject historically, on top of the fact that this particular Septuagint is circa 1851. Well guess what:
- - The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology (Volume 2, page 512): "Recent textual discoveries cast doubt on the idea that the compilers of the LXX [Septuagint] translated the tetragrammaton YHWH by kyrios. The oldest LXX MSS (fragments) now available to us have the tetragrammaton written in Heb[rew] characters in the G[ree]k text. This custom was retained by later Jewish translators of the O[ld] T[estament] in the first centuries A.D."
- - Professor George Howard, Biblical Archaeology Review (March '78 pg. 14): "When the Hebrew form for the divine name was eliminated in favor of Greek substitutes in the Septuagint, it was eliminated also from the New Testament quotations of the Septuagint. . . . Before long the divine name was lost to the Gentile church except insofar as it was reflected in the contracted surrogates or remembered by scholars."
- - LXX P. Fouad Inv. 266 ("contains perhaps the most perfect Septuagint text of Deuteronomy that has come down to us" Kurt Aland and others 'Studia Evangelica', 1959 pg.614), dated to the first century B.C., contains 49 easily identifiable instances of the Hebrew Tetragrammaton (provided in this edit). All fragments of LXX P. Fouad Inv. 266 were published by Zaki Aly and Ludwig Koenen in "Three Rolls of the Early Septuagint: Genesis and Deuteronomy - Papyrologische Texte und Abhandlungen" vol. 27.
- None of the above listed resources are Watchtower publications.
- - Taken from the current version of the Jehovah in the New Testament article: "Moreover in the Lord's Prayer, Christ says: "After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name" (Matthew 6.9). If Christ meant that this name was Jehovah and that his Disciples should use "Jehovah" in prayer, it is a significant omission that he failed to tell them that." This is speculation on unsourced information. Please see WP:NOR and WP:VERIFY.
- - "Furthermore, to reconcile these facts with the belief that YHWH is the one and only name of God, Jehovah's Witnesses make various assumptions. Among these is the belief that YHWH was replaced in the Old Testament with Κύριος sometime after the New Testament was written! For example, it is stated that Origen included the Tetragrammaton in his Hexapla in the 3rd century AD. But this statement is deceptive; it does not mean that YHWH was used in the Septuagint. Origen's Hexapla was a comparison in side-by-side columns of separate versions of the Old Testament in Greek. Thus to say that YHWH appeared in the Hexapla, does not mean that it appeared in the Septuagint quoted in the New Testament at all." This paragraph from the section Jehovah in the New Testament#Jehovah and the Septuagint makes a gross number of mistakes.
- "Furthermore, to reconcile these facts with the belief that YHWH is the one and only name of God, Jehovah's Witnesses make various assumptions." - This sentence makes no sense, even in the context of the article it's still nonsensical. The focus of the article is not about "the belief that YHWH is the one and only name of God" it is about the inclusion of an English rendering of the name 237 times in the New Testament of the Jehovah's Witness bible The New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures despite zero extant NT manuscript support. Witnesses cite several reasons for their inclusion of the Divine Name into the NT, some are valid, some are assumptive. The article does not provide a source for the asserted conclusion: "assumptions".
- "Among these is the belief that YHWH was replaced in the Old Testament with Κύριος sometime after the New Testament was written!" - This accusation (on top of being the unsourced product of a wiki editor who doesn't know what they're talking about) mixes it's apples with it's oranges. The Apples: - Witnesses believe and assert that ALL modern English translations of the OLD Testament replaces the divine name "YHWH" (rendered however you want) with the ambiguous title "Lord". This is an easily verifiable fact that on the whole, every modern translation of the bible fails to render "YHWH" as a name, opting instead to render it as "Lord" or "God" in the Old Testament in nearly 7,000 (SEVEN THOUSAND!) instances. The Oranges: - It is the belief of Witnesses that YHWH was replaced in the NEW Testament by the title: "Kurios" by superstitious scribes. It is verifiable fact that this accured with Septuagints, Witnesses theorise that it was likewise the case with the New Testament manuscripts.
- The article heading: Many Greek Old Testaments - This section has not ONE reference among it's myriad of assertions and conclusions. I don't even see how this section is relevant to the article.
- The catagory "Forgery" at the bottom of the page is bad-faith and irrelevant to the article.
- There will likely be more criticism to come. If you vandalise the disputed tag one more time I will seek Admin intervention against you. Duffer 08:24, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Simply put: YHWH/Jehovah does not occur in the original New Testament. Its insertion into versions in modern languages is a novelty. Asserting that this novelty is representative of the original is a deception.
Wikipedia policy is explicit that articles must follow scholarly convention and scholarly consensus. One cannot make an article on Wikipedia conform to the doctrines of the Jehovah's Witnesses, nor may one compel editors to conform their edits to any religion whatsoever.
Convention and the scholarly consensus are quite clear in regard to the use of the word "Jehovah" and official statements from official sites of the Jehovah's Witnesses differ markedly. This version of this article here is sourced and cited. It also incorporates the contributions of numerous editors, including that of Jehovah's Witnesses where they may be truthful.
Each Jehovah's Witness is certainly welcome to his own point of view. The Jehovah's Witnesses have their own websites and there is even a section in this article allowing for discussion of these views. The overwhelming majority of editors do not follow that religion, but the community has been generous and even indulgent in incorporating these sectarian views in the article.
Thus, in the interests of Policies and Guidelines particularly Wikipedia is not a soapbox, Jehovah's Witnesses are strongly urged to cease conforming articles against scholarly convention and consensus. More importantly, kindly cease from demanding that editors follow sectarian religious doctrine. Editors take offense at such tactics and are unlikely to comply.
We consider it rude and it reflects badly on Jehovah's Witnesses.
There are ample websites already owned by Jehovah's Witnesses for followers to contribute to. All are welcome to contribute here inasmuch as each follows the rules. - C. dentata 06:56, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
- So you're just going to ignore me? Admin Stifle's block was unwarranted, the Admin's words on my talk page: "To be clear, I am having no part in this dispute as I am too prejudiced in the issue to be impartial. Stifle 14:40, 22 March 2006 (UTC)". The vandal of the Jehovah's Witnesses: Controversial issues reported me for 3RR and got lucky, meanwhile a more astute Admin was busy protecting the page from that users vandalism. Anyways, this is irrelevant, you gave me the exact same nonsense (word-for-word) when you objected to my edits of the Jehovah article. In that instance, like this one, you have completely failed to address ANY criticism I have brought forth, yet you continue to RV. How can you gain consensus when you ignore criticism, ignore sourced facts, ignore several invitations to address those facts, then have the nerve to say: "We consider it rude." Bring your facts to the table, we'll sort them out with the facts I've brought; If you can't or won't, then please stop RVing, and let people who are actually willing to take part in a communal article building project build this article. Duffer 10:21, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
That which is asserted by some to be "Fraudulent"
The article is inaccurate. For example, the English version of a Italian article published on the catholic magazine, edited from Dehonian friars, "Rivista Biblica", year XLV, n. 2, April-June 1997, p. 183-186. Bologna, Italy says: "... recent discoveries have shown that the practice of substituted in the LXX YHWH with KYRIOS started in a much later period in comparison with the beginning of that version.[date? context?] As a matter of fact, the older copies of the LXX keep the Tetragrammaton written in Hebrew characters in the Greek text. Girolamo, the translator of the Latin Vulgate confirms this fact. In the prologue of the books of Samuel and Kings he wrote: "In certain Greek volumes we still find the Tetragrammaton of God's name expressed in ancient characters". And in a letter written in Rome in the year 384 it says: "God's name is made up of four letters; it was thought ineffable, and it is written with these letters: iod, he, vau, he (YHWH). But some have not been able to decipher it because of the resemblance of the Greek letters and when they found it in Greek books they usually read it PIPI (pipi)". S. Girolamo, Le Lettere, Rome, 1961, vol.1, pp.237, 238; compare J.P.Migne, Patrologia Latina, vol.22, coll.429, 430."
We can conclude that the article is biased, which also the writer's nick suggests. (Anonymous 2005-10-12 07:01:59)
- Anonymous: The above quotation, whatever its provenance, discusses the Old Testament. This article is about the New Testament. - C. dentata 18:45, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
The quote above, referencing the LXX, is relevant in that it refers to the nominal source for the quotations from the OT. It is manifestly the basic issue here - what did the writers of the NT quote when citing references from the OT? If the Masoretic / Hebrew text, then the quote contained the Tetragram. If the Septuagint, then, as the article asserts, they would also have quoted from a reference bearing the Tetragram and, reasonably, it would have been in the NT. (Amanuensis03 2006-02-18 18:26:07 )
- Even the fragmentary reference to the LXX says that it read Kyrios not "YHWH." This contradicts your point.
- Worse, you are assuming "what would have been!!" That is a belief and not substantiated. We have the Greek text of both the NT and LXX, so it is irrelevant what one thinks "what would have been" which is moreover wholly contradicted by what is. The article as written by the consensus is quite explicit and accurate on this point (no I did not write that part.)
- To change the Greek text to what one imagines "would have been" is fraud! - C. dentata 20:54, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
Long list of Bible versions in article
A visit to http://www.e-sword.net will furnish one with the opportunity to verify the accuracy of quotations shown from translations numbered as 4 & 5 above; one will have to download e-sword, download the bibles and then install all files, including fonts unique to the bible.
Those listed as #1, 2, 9 & 11 have urls attached to the citation and can be easily verified.
The Hutter referred to is a well-respected translation and somewhat of a unique bible; copies are called 'Hutters' reasonbly enough and are prized. Hutter himself founded the movement that is still in existence today and bears his name. For information about him from a modern day perspective, visit this site: http://www.hutterites.org/hutter.htm (Amanuensis03 2006-02-18 01:46:09 )
- The list is irrelevant.
- To be fair, if there is a list of obscure modern versions in which Jehovah were added, then there would have to be the 10,000s of translations in which Jehovah was not added. The original language — Greek — did not use Jehovah or anything similar in the New Testament and it is a major factual error to equivocate!
- NOTE: The list put forward is shown as testamentary evidence in support of a contrarian position; that the versions shown are delineated as different because of using Jehovah or some form thereof in their translation of the NT is, by extrapolation, stating that all or most others do not include it; hence no list in opposition is needed; it is understood to be the universe of others [numbering perhaps 1000 - 2000 in English; no source has been cited for the '10,00s' averred here].
The actual long list of versions that differ from the original Bible
- NOTE:Castanea dentata has deleted numerous entries posted here, including the list in the article he asserts is irrelevant - it has been deleted half a dozen times, perhaps because it demonstrates that which is not in agreement with the agenda being advanced here. That about a dozen other translators have opted to to include the name of god in their rendering of the NT demonstrates that not only is this position reasonable, it has been considered by a fair number of translators as a precept they will follow. In point of fact it started with Shem Tob's version of 1385 - some 620 years ago.
Further, note that assertion made regarding '10,000s of translations.' If that is meant to be a truthful statement and not hyperbole, then there must be at least 20,000 translations of the NT - a very fanciful number and one that needs some source to be seen as believable.
Here is the list which he asserts is irrelevant; whether it is relevant or not should be left to the reader to judge; if the reader adjudges the translations shown as irrelevant, then so be it. How though can they do so if the list is suppressed? Censorship is not reason.
1. The Sacred Name King James Version ;
2. The Scriptures ;
3. Moffat’s translation of the Bible in Tswana [the first complete Bible to be printed in Africa, in 1872];
4. The Chinese Union Version, Simplified uses 耶和华 [the chinese equivalent of Jehovah] in Revelation 19.1;
5. The Chinese Union Version, Traditional [ibid.];
6. The Chinese Union Version, GB;
7. The Malagasy Bible, Protestant Version, uses Jehovah in the NT;
8. The Malagasy Bible, Catholic version, uses IAVEH at Matt 4.7 & 10;
9. The Restored Name King James Version  uses the Tetragrammaton itself in the text of the NT and uses YAH for the Hebrew parse of the Tetragrammaton rendered JAH by the KJ and ASV;
10. The Christian Greek Scriptures in 12 languages by Elias Hutter, 1599, uses the Tetragrammaton in the Hebrew translation of the NT;
11. The Hebraic Roots Version (NT only) uses YHWH.
Worse, personally attacking another is a formal error in logic - demonstrating the weakness of the arguments advanced.
Regarding the citations of LXX in papyrus, note what Professor George Howard stated: “When the Septuagint which the New Testament church used and quoted contained the Hebrew form of the divine name, the New Testament writers no doubt included the Tetragrammaton in their quotations.” (Biblical Archaeology Review, March 1978, page 14)
Further, The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology states: "Recently discovered texts doubt the idea that the translators of the LXX have rendered the Tetragrammaton JHWH with KYRIOS. The most ancient mss (manuscripts) of the LXX today available have the Tetragrammaton written in Hebrew letters in the Greek text. This was custom preserved by the later Hebrew translator of the Old Testament in the first centuries (after Christ)". Vol.2, pag.512
- This is a list of versions of the Bible. None of these versions show that YHWH/Jehovah was written in the original New Testament, which is what the article has been all about since before you set up your new account.
- Further, lists are unencyclopedic.
- Since they neither prove nor disprove the existence of YHWH/Jehovah in the original New Testament, they are irrelevant. Besides which, if they were, there would have to be an extremely voluminous list of the far greater number of translations and versions in which the original language was not altered to read "YHWH" of "Jejovah."
- Stating that Jehovah is not in the original New Testament is no "Personal Attack." That you do not want to read that is no reason to say it an "attack" or to revert articles without comment.
- The article has been around a while, and your reversions are not part of any consensus. Worse, they are riddled with major factual errors and obfuscation.
- This is why an administrator asked you to cease and desist, and characterized your reverts as Wikipedia:Vandalism.
- That the facts contradict a principle dogma of your religion is regrettable. However, Wikipedia is not the place to preach such religious dogmas and I dare say that this manner of proselytizing reflect poorly on your religion. - C. dentata 01:30, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
Dead Sea Scrolls information
With respect to the Dead Sea scrolls, referred to in the main article, please go to the following site and note the image therein of a portion of the Psalms wherein the tetragrammaton is shown in older phoenician letters: http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/deadsea.scrolls.exhibit/full-images/psalm-b.gif
Images of non-Septuagint fragments from unidentified Greek documents
The following fragments are sometimes mistaken for fragments from the Septuagint. However, in ancient times, there were at least seven versions of the OT in Greek, none of which was the Septuagint (and especially not the New Testament) and none of which was officially used in the Church:
Tetragrammaton in reference to Jesus
Here's one page talking about all three mentioned scriptures, and some others: http://www.catholic-forum.com/members/popestleo/hiding.html. It took me about two seconds to find this. Surely I'm not the only one that knows how to use search engines here. You can find enough to read until the cows come home.Tommstein 08:46, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
- Very good! Perhaps this should be incorporated into the article? - C. dentata 18:46, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
I have comments to this statement: "Jesus quoted numerous times from the Old Testament, including his replies to the tempter where he indicates that he is God: "Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God" (Matthew 4.7). Here as elsewhere, he quotes from the Greek Septuagint." 1: To say that Jesus by this statement indicated that he himself was God/YHWH, is an interpretation. I believe one must see this in context, and take into account verse 6, where the Devil says, "If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in [their] hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone." Who is being tempted here? Surely, Jesus would actually be the one putting his Father to the test by casting himself off the mount. My conclusion on this is: Mt 4:7 is here being interpreted; and interpretations should be left to the reader! 2: It is not obvious that Jesus himself quoted the Greek Septuagint; but the writer of Matthew's Gospel quoted it, later writing what had happened! Jesus spoke and read Hebrew/Aramaic, and had access to the Hebrew Scriptures in its original letter. -Sommer.
What do this box in this article? This article is not about any particular god, it is an essay about the use of a name in the Bible. I think this box do not belong to this article. Summer Song 18:21, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Castanea and Totally Disputed tag
What is your deal with Jehovah's Witnesses? You gave me the same nonsense on the Jehovah article with no legitimate basis for your reverts/edits. I'm trying to make this article better. I've sourced my facts, removed unsourced information that contradicts those facts, I've removed POV and redundancy and changed the reference system. My focus is accuracy first, we can work on the rather convoluted prose next. If there is conflicting sourced information then by all means present it, but the fact stands the previous version of the article was built around the incorrect (and unsourced) assertion that Septuagints didn't contain the divine name. I have provided indesputable evidence to the contrary. The most well preserved, oldest (100 B.C!) GREEK Septuagint of the book of Deuteronomy contains 49 identifiable instances of the Hebrew Tetragrammaton. After we get the facts straight we can hammer out the prose, either way: 1 - Please do not revert sourced information per WP:VERIFY without VERY good reason, 2 - A revert war would just move this article backwards, bring your information to the table, we'll sort it out and make a good, well referenced article. Duffer 07:54, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
This article is convoluted, inaccurate, and very redundant. How many times does the article need to say: "The Septuagint does not contain forms of the word YHWH.." regardless of the fact that this assertion is wrong, and I have proven that, the article makes this particular assertion (or variations of) SEVEN times! At least one of the sentences I changed contains completely unsalvagable grammar, there's a myriad of asserted (unsourced) conclusions ("diseptive" "various assumptions" (which coincidentally are provable facts) "Indeed", bad faith "See Also" summaries and an irrelavant catagory "Forgery"; the "Main Article" isn't even right. I'm damned tired of being right yet get constantly battled over my edits simply because I'm a Jehovah's Witness. Duffer 08:14, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
- Castanea, please, PLEASE stop removing the dispute tag. We MUST try to reach consensus but you have said nothing on the matter. I've cited my sources, I've invited you to discuss your objections several times, you've given me nothing. Don't just ignore me and continue your bad-faith editing style, that is not how to resolve this. Duffer 07:38, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
The title "Jehovah in the New Testament" implies that Jehovah is the correct pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton, which is by no means the case. I have therefore redirected the article to the more neutral title Tetragrammaton in the New Testament. Yahnatan 00:49, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
For that matter not one of the Hebrew names is pronounced correctly in English; if that is the criteria than the Bible must remain nameless. Example: why do English speakers say Cologne, when the German name is Koeln? Because they can't say Koeln, perhaps they should say: the big German city on the Rheine river with the large Cathedral! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.104.22.168 (talk) 04:22, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
- "Jehovah" is an ENGLISH pronunciation of the Hebrew Tetragrammaton, nobody is claiming it is the correct Hebrew pronunciation. This article is about the use of this English rendering of the Tetragrammaton ("Jehovah") in 237 instances of the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures despite no extant manuscript support for the inclusion. Technically this article is a content fork (really an attack page in it's current form) from the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures article. Duffer 05:23, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
- No, this article is specifically about the appearance of the Tetragrammaton in the Christian Scriptures, specifically the "New Testament" (NT). It has nothing to do with English translations but only to do with the appearance of the Hebrew letters of the name of God as they are assumed by some to have appeared in the original copies of the NT books. Therefore, it is completely appropriate for Yahnatan to have redirected this article here. Yonah mishael 17:48, 8 October 2006 (UTC)