Talk:Jews of Bilad el-Sudan

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Hebrew fix[edit]

I think the Hebrew should read יהודי, not יהודים. Let me know, Tewfik^Talk 22:16, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You are right. I am going to make some additions to this page soon. I really want to put the title in Judeo Arabic, so I am going to update the Hebrew when I have time. Thanks for checking.--EhavEliyahu 00:11, 29 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I went ahead and changed the title to the Judeo-Arabic for the term.--EhavEliyahu 14:48, 9 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The Hebrew text is poorly presented, probably due to the Wiki formatting. This would be improved if the vowels were removed. For anyone who doesn't understand this, vowel notation is optional in written Hebrew, placed below, above or inside the relevant consonants. Vowels in Hebrew are not letters, and it is weird and inaccurate to present them in line with the consonants.

Hello. The reason that the vowels are there is because it is Judeo Arabic. That is a mixture of Hebrew and Arabic, but in Hebrew script. The vowels are there just like in a number of other articles where it is needed to facilitate a pronunciation that is particular to Judeo-Arabic and not to Hebrew. It partially depends of what kind of computer you use. I have used some computers where the vowels and consenants look find, and other computers where it looked garbled. I will see if other wiki articles with vowels are using something different to make it work.--EhavEliyahu 13:01, 17 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Name[edit]

Should this article not be at Jews of West Africa? This is English Wikipedia, and as far as I'm aware, neither Bilad el-Sudan nor its colloquial variant Bilad es-Sudan are used in English to refer to West Africa, the western Maghreb nor anywhere else... I think WP:NC pretty clearly applies here. Tom e r ^talk 22:02, 7 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Tomer. I think the problem with calling the article Jews of West Africa may give the impression that the communities that it is talking about still exist. If the article were called Jews of West Africa I think it would seem to suggest that any Jewish group practicing Judaism such as the ones in Ghana and Nigeria are directly connected to these group that once existed in West Africa. Because the article is dealing with a community that existed when the area was known as Bilad es-Sudan, and just as the term is not used anymore the communities that existed during that time no longer exist. The title of the article is due to the information that exists about the Jews in the region prior to the 1800's being in the Bilad es-Sudan. In the next few weeks I am going to add more information about the last community of Rabbi Mordachai Aby-Serour that may help clear up the matter. What are your thoughts?--EhavEliyahu 17:38, 11 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hmmm. Well, I guess in that case perhaps History of the Jews of Bilad el-Sudan? Tom e r ^talk 03:48, 15 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds good to me.--EhavEliyahu 04:08, 15 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

So, are you going to do it, or shall I? :-) Tom e r ^talk 06:28, 15 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Could you? I can't remember how to change the name.--EhavEliyahu 20:33, 16 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Done. [Obviously...] :-) Tom e r ^talk 08:41, 17 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Genealogical info removed[edit]

I have removed the following; temporary or permanently we shall see:

The Kehath family converted with the rest of the non-Muslim population. The Cohens, descended from the Islamicized Moroccan Jewish trader El-Hadj Abd-al-Salam al Kuhin, arrived in the Timbuktu area in the 18th century, and the Abana family came in the first half of the 19th century. According to Prof. Michel Abitbol, at the Center for the Research of Moroccan Jewry in Israel, in the late 19th century Rabbi Mordoche Aby Serour traveled to Timbuktu several times as a not-too-successful trader in ostrich feathers and ivory. Ismael Diadie Haidara, a historian from Timbuktu, has found old Hebrew texts among the city's historical records. He has also researched his own past and discovered that he is descended from the Moroccan Jewish traders of the Abana family. As he interviewed elders in the villages of his relatives, he discovered that knowledge of the family's Jewish identity has been preserved, in secret, out of fear of persecution.<ref>The Renewal of Jewish Identity in Timbuktu, by Karen Primack, [1]</ref>

It really sounds a lot more suited to a genealogy website than an an encyclopedia. If the notability of the families mentioned can be established then it should go back in but as of now I don't see a basis for inclusion of the information. What do others think? Picaroon (Talk) 23:29, 5 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think the first sentence should be included, but I will need to go back to Ismael Haidara's book about those families to figure out how to include them. It should probably go in the section about the Arabic records since the records talk about those families. When I return to New York I will work that in.--EhavEliyahu 16:22, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Synagogue in Timbuktu???[edit]

I learn from your text that Mardochai entered Timbuktu on his status as dhimmi. According to Muslim law a person under this status must not establish a place of worship within a Muslim community. This would mean expulsion or even execution on the basis of the Muslim legal tradition. If Mardochai received his status from a Fulani prince (whose title was not Askia - you don't know much about West African history, I'm afraid) it was the caliph of Massina, and Ahmadu Ahmadu, the ruler of 1857, was a Muslim fundamentalist, who for example demanded the delivery or execution of the German traveler Heinrich Barth only three years previously. Ahmadu Ahmadu would never have permitted or tolerated the erection of a Jewish or Christian place of worship in a place with a long religious tradition such as Timbuktu. The picture of the alleged synagogue cannot date from the years before 1900 as Timbuktu was occupied by the French in 1894, and the building displays architectural features of the early 20th century. But even if the picture shows a house owned by Jewish traders, it is highly improbable that it was openly used as a place of worship, as this would aroused the opposition among Muslims, and the French authorities tried to avoid any provocation of the Muslim notables because they did not want to run the risk of provoking armed resistance against the colonial rule. I mean perhaps I am totally mistaken as far as my suspicions are concerned. Perhaps some reliable documents can be quoted in support of the present passage of this site. Peter Kremer 16:21, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In terms of the Askia title placed for the Emir, that more than likely was an edit mistake. The whole point of Wikipedia is that anyone who has information can also edit. The article just like any article can be edited so you could have easily edited it. Besides I don't make any claim of being a master of West African history, but I do know Jewish history and Sephardic history.

The building shown was both Rabbi Serour's location of trade and a synagogue. Rabby Mordechai and his family were from Morocco. Many synagogues in Morocco were moved from one person's house to another every year. If you look in the book A Treasury of Sephardic Laws and Customs: The Ritual Practices of Syrian, Moroccan, Judeo-Spanish and Spanish and Portuguese Jews of North America by Herbert C. Dobrinsky, it describes how some Moroccan Jews, when they lived in Morocco, would host the synagogue in one of the rooms in their homes. All that was needed for a synagogue was 10 men and a Torah scroll. Back then most Middle Eastern and Moroccan Jews did not have to have Siddurim since they had the prayers memorized.

Not all synagogues were built into structures like they are now to look like places of worship. For example, in Yemen synagogues were often built below ground in order to not draw attention from Muslims. Some synagogues in Yemen were simply rooms with a hole in the wall where the Torah Scroll was kept. If you look at the Yemenite Jews page at Yemenite_Jews#Religious_traditions there two pictures of Yemenite synagogues which were only small rooms.

Ismail Haidara, who is a Timbuktu Islamic scholar and descendant of some of the formerly Jewish Kati family, who wrote a book about the Jewish history Timbuktu has shown a number of people who have visited Timbuktu the location of the synagogue that used to exist there. It was not built to be a synagogue, it was a building that was used for more than one purpose. Also, the picture is some years after it ceased to be used by Rabbi Serour who left in the late in 1870's. If you like I can put "former" in the wording. Besides the Pact of Umar does not outlaw buying a building and using part of it as a synagogue, it is on new structures and some Islamic scholars such as Maulana Muhammad Ali argue that the pact of Umar had more than one version and could be challenged based on previous Koranic sources.

The synagogue in the picture was a place where a the Jews could do business, live, and have a minyan. By the way during that time, just as now, many synagogues were not public or open places. Synagogues for Jews from the outskirts, not in cities, were often places that did not look like religious structures. There were a number of hidden synagogues in North Africa that were underground in locations where Jews were hiding in mountain areas. Their purpose was simply to provide a place to pray. Even in Israel, there are people who have minyan's in apartments instead of official structures. In New York there are Sephardic synagogues that don't have titles on them and they look like brownstones as to not draw attention.

In terms of reliable sources, I have provided sources for the information about the minyan and the building. God's Will The Travels of Rabbi Mordochai Abi Serour, by Dr. Sanford H. Bederman, GSU Department of Geography Research Series, 1980 and Les Juifs à Tombouctou, or Jews of Timbuktu, Recueil de sources écrites relatives au commerce juif à Tombouctou au XIXe siècle, Editions Donniya, Bamako, 1999 by Professor Ismael Diadie Haidara. Both of these books are considered extremely reliable sources on the topic and both are cited in the article. You can read Prof. Ismael Diadie Haidara's book Les Juifs à Tombouctou on page 31 even makes mention of the synagogue. Also, he stated the same in 3rd of 4th page of this article by the International Herald Tribune [2]. Sheik Abdel Haidara stated the same in a recent speach at NYU concerning Timbuktu texts.

John Hunwicks's book Jews of a Saharan Oasis Elimination of the Tamantit Community (page 67) also accounts that when Mungo Park explored West Africa he was informed by an Arab of there being Jews in Timbuktu whose prayers sounded similar to the Moors (more than likely the Arab was describing Awlad al-Kuhin who were there during that time). This book also explains how some Jews got around the Dhimmi rules about building synagogues. All accounts of Rabbi Serour attest to the fact that he was extremely knowledgeable about Sharia and that is how he survived and often was able to get his way. Besides, his community only lasted less than a decade because some of his family members passed away.

Also, the article is not meant to be a history of West Africa. It is about the Jewish element that once existed in the area, as the sources attest. I have provided the sources for the information.--EhavEliyahu 23:25, 10 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hi editors, Sorry for jumping in many years later. I would just like to pick up on the last paragraph of EhavEliyahu. If this article is not meant to be a history of West Africa, to which I agree totally, it begs the question why is the article over-categorized with : history of Senegal, history of the Gambia, history of Mali, Ghana Empire, etc? If this community existed in certain countries of West Africa (not my specialist subject), then surely they should be categorized as "ethnic groups of..." or something like that than "history of..." I can perhaps understand if the title of the article was "History of the Jews of Bilad el-Sudan" but it is not. For example the Serer people are categorized as ethnic group of Senegal, the Gambia and Mauritania, but Serer ancient history and Serer history (medieval era to present) is categorized as history of Senegal, the Gambia and Mauritania. This follows Wiki's convention and makes total sense to me. Therefore, I think someone has gone way-over with the categorizations and many of them should be removed. I will leave a message for EhavEliyahu since I have mentioned their name here as a matter of curtesy, and would like to know what others think. Thanks. Tamsier (talk) 16:20, 12 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Greetings. Sorry for the late reply. I haven't done much editing on Wiki in recent years. To answer your question. The reason is that this article is not about one period but instead several. The Jews who were in the region, or even the stories of there being Jews in said region, were not from one direct group. Jewish history is generally written based on the location of each group because of differences in language and culture. Because the article covers several periods of non-connected migrations it is necessary to break up the article into the various groups. Since each group on its own does not have a large enough history base for seperate articles it is generally accepted that one discussion can cover them all. That is the history of Jews in the region is connected in how it is documented: fragmented mentions in connected documents, trade records found in one location, and stories from particular members of brouder West African Ethnic groups who have a history of having ancestors from said groups.--EhavEliyahu (talk) 12:16, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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A suggested external Linguistic Link[edit]

Happy New year to all. In Reference to Ancient roots of African Jews, I would like to suggest an inclusion of the following article "Bambara (A PROTO-HEBREW LANGGUAGE?)" https://josepheidelberg.com/blog/ by Joseph Eidelberg. Please review and comment. Thanks Beidelberg (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 01:45, 1 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]