Talk:Judy Garland/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions about Judy Garland. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Old talk

Historically, Garland had been labelled a "gay icon" by thebaby boomer generation. Nevertheless, her fanbase is as diverse as any other celebrity today. New, younger generations do not label people so drastically but accept that people of all walks of life can have a similar interest in a star. It is important to included that she was a favorite among gay men in the past but has become more accepted by all walks of life today! --- Some mention of Judy Garland's gay icon status is probably warranted. --Robert Merkel

True; but what's here now seems a bit overdone. Revising a little. MisfitToys

MisfitToys, nicely done edits. --SeanO 02:18, Apr 14, 2004 (UTC)

Thanks! MisfitToys

Sort of strange to call the link between her funeral and the stonewall riots "coincidental" isn't it? I thought this was pretty well established, even down to details like the shotglass. http://www.gaycitynews.com/gcn_326/howarumholelegalized.html and http://www.ricksguide.com/judy-garland-the-gay-connection.html

Do we need to list Judy Garland impersonators? This one seems like an instance of advertising.

(Later) I checked this user's 'contributions' and it appears that the user is adding advertising links to a small business web page. Therefore I removed the Impersonator part. -- SeanO 13:00, Mar 10, 2004 (UTC)

According to below i feel pretty unsure if Judy really appeared in Irma la Douce. And i could not find a hint elsewhere right now. --212.144.145.212 02:25, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

http://www.jgdb.com/ftaw.htm Other films for which Judy was considered include:

Show Boat (as Julie, played by Ava Gardner, 1951)
Carousel (1956)
The Helen Morgan Story (1957)
The Three Faces of Eve (1957)
South Pacific (1958)
Irma la Douce (1963)
It's a Mad Mad Mad Mad World (1963)
The Unsinkabe Molly Brown (1964)
The Graduate (1967)
Born in Wedlock
Hold Back the Dawn
By the Beautiful Sea
Biographies of Gertrude Lawrence, Fannie Brice, Edith *Piaf and Aimee Semple McPherson
A Richard Rogers musical with a story by Abby Mann

Irish Identity/Looks

Whoever put in all this Irish stuff - it's horrendous and not really relevant.

Why no mention of her many abortions?

Judy Garland's maternal ancestry was Irish and Scottish. She herself often remarked about her "Irish" attributes including her "Irish" complexion and her "Balck Irish" temper. No one can deny that her appearance was sterotypicaly Irish. She made comments about her ancestors when appearing in Dublin in 1951. Gerold Frank's biography of Garland (the only one done with the cooperation of her family including her children and surviving sister, neice, and maternal Aunts, Uncles and cousins) talks about her Irish Great Grandmother Mary Elizabeth Herriot who was born in Dublin in the 1850s and was an orphan raised in a Dublin convent she married Hugh Fitzpatrick and emigrated from Ireland. The Fitzpatrick's were originally from Smithtown in County Meath and Patrick Fitzpatrick left Ireland with his family in the 1750s. Garland's maternal family history is well known and documented - the Gumm family is equally interesting with ancestors at Jamestown (Marable) and were among the first settlers of Virgina, Tennessee and Kentucky they were of English, Scottish, Irish, German and French stock. The Gumms were relatively wealthy in the pre-Civil War south and were well represented in the Comfederacy. The Milne family originally from Ardbroath near Aberdeen in Scotland came to Canada in the mid-1800s Garland's last foreign born ancestor was her Dublin born Great Grandmother Mary Elizabeth Herriott. Her geneology is well documented and researched and is detailed for the first time in the book Judy Garland the Golden Years. Both Garland's daughters Liza Minnelli and Lorna Luft have made comments about their ancestry and most recently Lorna Luft talked about it in interviews during her tour of Ireland saying that the family talent for singing definetly had its origins in Ireland as does their predisposition to addiction. It is Ironic that Garland's pride in her "Irish" ancestry was associated with her father that she described as a "Gay Irishman" but in reality his Irish ancestry was minimal compared to that of her mother's that was firmly rooted in Ireland. - anonymous

I hate to point it out, but Judy was not the best source of information about herself. Of course, when in Dublin, she would like to point out that she was Irish, one can certainly excuse a little fudging to please an audience. But when she later, on the same tour, played Aberdeen, critics called her a "bonny Scottish lass." It is the nature of entertainers to please their audiences. Judy would also tell stories about drunken Munchkins, a breast-grabbing Louis B. Mayer and abusive mother. She told certain tall tales enough to come to believe them herself. Like many creative people, and Judy was a true artist, she was not the most logical or accurate. Let us not call Judy a liar; let's just say she was fanciful and imaginative.

The bio written by Gerold Frank was written as a 67/33% profits deal with ex-husband Sid Luft. Luft would provide "information" and I use quotation marks purposefully, and Frank would use much of it. Needless to say, there was no mention of Luft's excessive gambling, his stealing from Jack Warner or beating up Judy (which, to be fair, she didn't exactly discourage). Lorna said later that her own book, Me and My Shadows was the only one she participated in with respect to the writing. A good example of the difference between Frank's book and Lorna's is the appearance of Judy in her coffin. In Frank's book, Judy is beautiful. In Lorna's book, she didn't even recognize her own mother, there was no beauty to be seen in Judy's face, and Lorna only recognized Judy by her hands. Sid Luft did call Judy, affectionately, a "black Irish witch," but like so many others, may have not really known her background well.

As far as looking sterotypically Irish, that is debatable. Judy's nose, in many films, was upturned by the insertion of rubber disks. Her hair was not red as the usual Irish girl, and she had coal-black eyes, not very Irish. She did have the palest of skins, as cited by a few sources, but that would be more in keeping with a Scottish girl. In any event, it is possible that Judy was a fraction Irish, but didn't like to mention the other mixes in the stew.

I agree that Garland was not the best source of info about herself - but this goes back to her desire to embelish and to entertain and to a degree to justify her own actions ( she had alot of guilt over her mother) but it is disengenuous to think that she didn't know her own family history her Grandmother (Eva Fitzpatrick) lived with her in her house in LA and was supported by her until her death in 1948 she died in her late eighties. Garland had a good and close relationship with her very large maternal family until her mother died. Gerold Frank's book may have been a Sid Luft deal but the information on her maternal family used in it came directly from her living Aunts and Uncles, the genealogical information used in the Golden Years book came directly from one of her many Milne-Fitzpatrick first cousins. Sterotypical Irish - is not red-hair (perhaps in America in the 1940s after Maureen O'Hara and technicolour became famous)but not in Ireland - the traditional Irish Colleen is small in stature, delicate features with black hair and dark eyes and lily white skin - this is how Irish girls were dipicted in the early part of the century and in traditional Irish poetry "Roisin Dubh" being the most famous translated in to English it means "Dark Rosaleen" Garland had one Irish born Great Grandparent and the Fitzpatrick family she is descended from originated in Ireland - this is undisputable and entitles her to be considered Irish American. and listed among the entrants. Incidently her "coal black eyes" were inherited from her mother who was Irish and Scottish and yes blue eyes may be the more common in both Ireland and Scotland but dark eyes are not unusual either and there are plenty of non-turned up noses here too. For example, look at current Irish Born celebrities - actor, Colin Farrell, singer,Bono of U2, singer, Adrea Corr, actress, Susan Lynch , all are dark eyes and hair and "sterotypical" Irish in appearance by Irish standards. The Gumm family were a mixture of many nationalities including Scots and Irish but her maternal family (Milne / Fitzpatrick)was only Scottish and Irish. However it is silly to argue this point, she was a great talent, and ultimately an American, her accomplishments as a singer warrant recognition. Whilst I beleive that our national origins predisposes us to many traits and can define us to a degree it is more so when someone becomes famous as everything that came before had a role in that eventual fame and is an important part of who they were but it is as relevant or irrelevant as the open or closed loo issues of her death or her gay icon status depending upon individual's interests. I felt that the previous article where it was stated that there was a "perception" of Irishness gave the wrong impression, but am content that the family history is something that individuals can pursue through other sources as there is a lot available if they are interested and does not need to be detailed in this article. -Anonymous

I'll leave it at this: Judy certainly had some Irish blood, but not enough to be thought of exclusively as an Irish lass... an image Judy certainly didn't discourage people from having. Regarding the toilet, or "loo" as they call it in England where she died, I think it's ridiculous to speculate as to whether it was open or closed, much less write about it in Judy's article. But it is of great importance to state that indeed, it was on the toilet where she died, in that it proves beyond doubt that Judy's death was, as the coroner ruled, accidental. To those even remotely acquainted with Judy's personality, if she did in fact decide to commit suicide, she would be carefully dressed, fully made up, and in a more elegant venue than the bathroom. -User:Professor Von Pie

Yes agreed the location certainly prooves that she did not intentionally kill herself so it is important in that respect. -

Agreed Judy was a mixture of ethnic origins albeit all western European, however she did consider herself to be Irish as did all her maternal relations because that was the major (ethnic) influence in their family in she lived exclusively among her maternal family and they were Scots and Irish - The Irish influence being the stronger simply because Grandma Eva was the daughter of an Irish immigrant mother (Mary Elizabeth Harriett) and Irish-American father (Hugh Fitzpatrick), Eva was a strong personality and ruled the family and as she lived to be quite old (late 80s) and lived with Judy until her death in the late 1940s means that Judy (as did the rest of her relations) "thought" of themselves exclusively as Irish because their was no other ethnic influence (Judy had little or no contact with any of her Gumm relations at any time in her life). Also the Scots and the Irish are indeed the same race - they are Celtic in origin sharing the same Gaelic language, music and traditions - so my point is that Judy did not intentionally try to be Irish or see the need to discourage that thinking because that is how she naturally felt and was comfortable with that, she wasn't trying to deceive. On a similar vein there are wider issues related to ethnic traits - for instance much research has been done in the area of addicition and DNA research here in Ireland and the UK has strong links to a predisposition to addiction among the Irish , Scots and Nordic races who share similar DNA patterns - a gift of the Vikings! Also Mitochondrial DNA is passed exclusively through the female line of a family which means that Garland, her sisters, her daughters, her granddaughter, her neices, her mother, all female cousins from female Fitzpatricks her grandmother and great grandmother etc. going back as far as that female line can be traced all share the same Mit DNA which is unquestionably Irish. This DNA is particulary important as it is used to identify relationships within a family and is used by forensic scientists in difficult cases, most famously in identifying the bones of the Romanovs by taking DNA samples from their living relatives descended from the same female line (Queen Victoria). So as I stated prior Garland was sterotypical Irish in looks and personality and this can also help to explain some of her problems. - But as you say historically she cannot be considered exclusively Irish American even if that was the predominent influence in her early family life and how she herself identified herself. On a similar note Judy was more Irish than Liza is Italian yet no one doubts Liza's Italian roots because of her name (Vincent Minnelli was only half Italian and considered himself French because that was his mother's influence even though she was French and Scottish!. -anonymous

Let's put DNA and science aside and say that Judy liked emphasizing the Irish angle, and who can blame her? The Irish have many beguiling and attractive traits, which is likely why so many wind up in politics. No, I don't think she meant to deceive, even when she called her non-Irish father a witty Irishman. Above all, Judy loved to PLEASE. If her public liked to think she was Irish, then that was fine with her. She couldn't very well have sung "It's a Great Day for the Part-Irish" in Little Nellie Kelly. Liza, equally a crowd-pleaser, liked to stress the Italian-ness, if there's such a word, of her. In the song Liza with a Z, she spells her last name carefully, then explains, "It's Italian!" I recall at one event she was with some Italian-American performer, I forgot who, but she hugged him and said, "We Italians have to stick together!" It makes no sense at all to say "We One-Quarter Italians have to stick together!" I think it is the very nature of the great performers: Garland, Minnelli, Jolson, Sinatra... I think they would say they're descended from Mars, if that's what make the audience happy. -User:Professor Von Pie

Yes I agree - very well put - I don't think we are disagreeing over anything except perhaps that I feel that she was genuine in her identification and you are not convinced she was - I agree that it is all in the PR mileage but the reality is that she did identify with her "Irishness" due to her relationship with her extended (maternal) family in her formative years and this identification happened to be conveinient and maybe beneficial for her - who knows? We all have an identity and in America that can be confusing if your name and total ancestry doesn't mach this internal perception or which ethnic group has the most influence or that you prefer (its usually the mother's family) but it is common in countries like America and Australia that were founded by many varied immigrants. We get American tourists all the time coming here to Ireland with various surnames names - Italian, Spanish, German, Swedish etc and they consider themselves Irish yet many haven't any idea where their Irish ancestor came from in Ireland - at least Judy knew her Great Grandmother was from Dublin and other details of the family. At the end of the day she is one of the greatest voices of all time and if she were from Mars or anywhere else it would be irrelevant but in her case she was the culmination of generations of performers and talented people so her heritage is important to understanding the whole picture just as it is with any other historic figure. Yes I have heard Liza make reference to her Italian background as well as her French and occasionally her Irish roots too but I do beleive that she prefers her French heritage over the rest because that was the heritage her father identified with and she prefers to promote her father's legacy rather than her mother's - But in any event I think we've debated the subject enough and are in basic agreement - Nollaig Shona Duit - (Mery Christmas to you in Irish Gaelic)

In 1964 during a press conference in Sydney Australia Garland described herself as "I'm just an Irish Biddy"---

Drug use - needs a citation

In the article, it's mentioned without source that Garland and Rooney were given drugs by the studio. Although this isn't a secret per se, I do feel that as it's worded now, it needs to have a source cited. If anyone has easy access to a reputable Garland biography, it should be an easy matter to add a reference on this point. 23skidoo 06:32, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

I have flagged the section as being in need of referencing, and flagged a few of the most glaring examples within that section. IANAL, but unreferenced statements such as those made in the 'addiction' subsection could be construed as slander. If someone can point to specific allegations (and they will need to be labelled as such), they will need to be inserted ASAP. There are tons of unverified claims in this article (except for the gay icon section), but these kinds of claims are (IMO) the ones most desperately in need of back-up. This is not a GA level piece, comprehensive though it is. Matt Deres 14:27, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

'Closed-lid'

I'd like to address the anonymous person who keeps changing the place of Judy's death from "on the toilet" to "on a closed-lid toilet." This is not an open and shut case. There was only one witness to the tragic discovering of the deceased Judy. That was Mickey Deans, her husband, who found her. According to him, Judy was "sitting on the loo." And that was that. It is astonishing that you would bother to state the condition of the toilet seat, as if this were pertinent or defending Judy's honor. It's funny in a sick way that you would keep inserting the words "closed-lid" but still, it must be excised. Better yet, don't do things anonymously -Professor Von Pie

I've got to say this-- whatever dolt keeps inserting the words "closed-lid" in front of the word "toilet," kindly knock off your vandalism. Yes, Judy died on the toilet, and this is valuable information since it demonstrates that she did not commit suicide. The only person who knew whether the toilet was open or closed was the person who found her, Mickey Deans, and- pun intended- this is an open and shut case. Deans never told publicly. And it is irrelevent, and it looks idiotic-- the thought that having the toilet lid closed is somehow defending Judy's honor. Please folks, if and when "closed-lid" reappears, and it'll be any minute now, kindly remove it. User:Professor Von Pie

When did this happen? I don't recall seeing such an addition. 23skidoo 02:35, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Wait just a couple of minutes-- it'll happen. It always does. [[User: Professor Von Pie]]

But I haven't seen anyone make a reversion to such a change anytime recently. Can you dig through the history and find a recent example? I've had this article on my watchlist for quite awhile and I haven't noticed it. Incidentally, are you meaning that Deans has never indicated the open or closed? Although I understand your rationale, I think it might be a bit of detail worth noting because in some respects it restores a bit of dignity to her because it means she wasn't using it at the time. It's not a huge deal but I don't really see a problem with it -- as long as the information is in the public record in which case to omit it that's POV. If it's speculation then it doesn't belong here. 23skidoo 02:45, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

It's not on my watch list, but every time I re-visit Judy's article, there it is. Closed-lid. I'm not even sure that's a word. It was there today, and if you don't see it now, it's because I revised it. According to Deans, he looked through the bathroom window (Judy had locked the bathroom door) and Judy was sitting on the toilet, her head cupped in her hands, and elbows resting on her knees. It gave him the first impression she had fallen asleep there. To anyone even remotely familiar with Judy's personality, this is the last place in the world she would want to be discovered dead; therefore, in keeping with her psychological profile, it would bolster the coroner's assessment of "accidental." I would not venture to put in the article whether it was open or closed, although I tend to think Judy went into the bathroom for the usual reasons one uses a bathroom. Personally, I believe that quashing any notions of suicide trumps the indignity of being discovered on the toilet. Professor Von Pie

Update: Did I tell you? Now the toilet's gone altogether. It is, to me, in keeping with a wiki pattern I've noticed. I wouldn't call it dumbing- down, but I'd say it was infantilizing... making all the articles suitable for a schoolroom report or conversation at a children's party. Professor Von Pie

I agree but skidoo reverted me anyway. PMA 00:35, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Since my attention was called to it, I don't believe it's necessary to indicate the state of the toilet. The fact she's in the bathroom is enough. However we seem to be in the midst of a revert war over this. I recommend this article be referred to Requests for comment to get third-party opinion otherwise we'll be doing this till the cows come home. 23skidoo 05:40, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

The gay question

Something important that is missing from the "Legacy in Gay Rights" section is why Garland became an icon in that community. I feel a paragraph is necessary to explain why she became such a symbol. I know there are rumors that she was bi- (then again every single Hollywood actor or actress who has ever lived has been rumored to be either bi- or gay ... gets comical after awhile). It's possible the Friends of Dorothy article linked here might explain (-just checked. Nope, it doesn't), but I think it needs more detail in this article. Also, a stronger connection between her death and Stonewall needs to be made, otherwise it should be deleted as no connected is made and the section itself says it may have just been coincidence. 23skidoo 15:38, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Since there has been no response or change to this section, I'm moving closer to deleting it. I support the deletion of the "LGBT rights activist" category as well. Will no one explain why she's considered an icon, aside from the fact that transvestites like to impersonate her and a piece of gay culture lingo was coined after a character she played? 23skidoo 23:41, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't know if I'll insert a brief understanding or explanation, because Wikipedia is becoming more and more of a chore in defending, justifying, explaining, ad nauseam any contributions, once the policemen target an edit...Anyway...Garland became a symbol or "Icon" for gay men, because of her lifelong struggle against numerous obstacles: physical (health), emotional (psychological), career (beauty), financial, etc. Gay men identify with someone who has had to endure and triumph over much suffering (especially when the consequence of such struggle is the creation of a body of artistic work), because they too usually were compelled to undergo a similar struggle in order to express their sexuality in the face of a hostile culture. At least, that is my opinion. 66.108.4.183 19:38, 30 June 2006 (UTC) Allen Roth

yes I agree but the problem is that it is really POV - I beleive that Gay men identify with her because of lots of reasons some of which you highlight but ultimately it is my opinion and is open to interpretation and opinion and conjecture its all subjective - there are no facts to demonstrate exactly why she appealed to anyone therefore very difficult to pin it down to one segment of the population - however I feel that gay men to a degree try and hijak her as belonging only to them through some type of factual connection e.g the claims that 12,000 out of the 22,000 that filed past her coffin were gay - who was counting them? Liza? Also teh worship can be a bit over-the top and dramatic at times e.g grown men dressed as Dorothy? I just don't understand it but up-hold that they have the right to do it and maintain that this type of adualtion is harmful rather than helpful. Vono 17:16, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't know if you are mean-spirited or just simply unaware. The gay fans of Garland have no desire to "hijack" her, nor would they be able to, even if they wanted. Someone's being a gay icon does not imply anything about who can enjoy her singing or not; it simply states the (rather obvious) fact that she has a broad base of fans in the gay community. Not all gay men like Judy Garland, and many probably couldn't care less about her. But to deny her status as the (probably premier) Gay Icon is really absurd. The question raised (and to which I attempted to reply) was, what was it about her that created this? And whether it is "harmful or helpful" really is completely irrelevant. I am frequently heard to aver that all fan-worship is somewhat silly, over and above a genuine recognition and appreciation for the object of the admiration's talents and achievements. 66.108.4.183 20:48, 18 July 2006 (UTC) Nash's Companion Allen Roth

I am not mean spirited and I have no problem with Garland being acknowledged or promoted or identified as a Gay Icon because that is reality - she is a Gay Icon - perhaps the first or Premier Gay Icon (in my opinion her daughter Liza is more of a Gay Icon as is Cher or Madonna) - but Judy may have been the first , I'm not sure maybe tehre were others but I do think that there is an element that tries to validate themselvbes by portraying her audience as being exclusivly gay e.g the reference to 12,000 of 22,000 that filed past her coffin were gay - its simply rediculous unless it is based on some evidence- Garland had the right outlook when she expressed that "she sang to people" that is how she should be portrayed - alot of what is written and promoted would have the reader beleive that her audiences were and are exclusively gay - journalists like that angle as it is perveived as controversial or interesting or seedy depending on the connotation - in Gerold Frank's book he writes about Garland ridiculing her Gay fans - perhaps gay men appreciated her more and were more vocal about it but I agree with you that recognition of genuine talent and achievements should be why someone is admired not because they may be troubled. Garland's appeal to Gay Men is a fact but so is her appeal to children and others of all backgrounds and orietations worldwide but it is subjective but I have no problem with it as long as it is accurate and if anyone can add insight or additions that are TRUE and verifiable about any aspect of her career or life that adds to the value of this article - they should add them and I think some of these "insights" should be added and referenced to the piece of work by Richard Dyer that can be an important resources for any researchers doing a piece on Garland as the Icon status is a facet of the wider jewel that is Judy Garland. 86.12.253.32 17:55, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

That Judy Garland is a gay icon is NOT POV. An excellent source for verification is Richard Dyer's 'Heavenly Bodies -Film Stars and Society' in which an entire chapter is dedicated to what Garland means to the gay community. On reading, it is clear that it is not just Dyer's POV, as he uses for sources several journals and placed advertisements in magazines for homosexuals to contact him about Judy Garland's importance to them as gay men and it features many quotes. The main points were that the way she sang (and how it seemed to reflect her life and problems) spoke to her gay audience (they "emphasize with her openess to suffering"), before gay liberation a Judy Concert was one of the only places they could "be gay in public", and the glamorous and camp elements of her persona. Also, the fact that her movie image at MGM was of an ordinary, girl-next-door, when in reality it turned out that she was such a troubled woman spoke to the gay experience of being in the closet (she was pretending to be an ordinary, well-adjusted person that she wasn't, just like they were pretending to be the ordinary heterosexual men they weren't). There's also a great quote in the biography "Get Happy", but I don't have it on me at the moment. Anyway, the fact that such a strong source exists in hardcopy should be proof enough to properly give an explanation to her importance without allegations of POV, besides Madonna has a whole article dedicated to her relationship with the gay community, the least we could do is give a brief explanation as to why Judy is so important.--58.160.206.120 12:04, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

You cite some excellent and insightful points from your source. Thanks. 66.108.4.183 19:30, 23 July 2006 (UTC) Allen Roth

Okay, so if I understand the above correctly, the article cannot go into the reasons WHY she is a gay icon, because it would be pure POV speculation. So how about a different approach: Can the article give the objective history of her becoming that icon? For example, can someone cite some specific occasions of where a gay individual or organization said something to the effect of "Thank you, Judy, for being our inspiration." Citing one or two such cases would at least satisfy the Wikipedia:Verifiability requirement. --Keeves 04:05, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Garland's Height

I have read somewhere that she was only 4'11. Has anyone else heard this and if it was true? It could be added to the article.User:12.222.121.79 00:45, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

From what I researched, she was 151 centimeters tall - or about 4 feet, 11 and one-half inches tall. - And she was adamant about that last half-inch. Davodd 05:28, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Judy was only about 4'11" tall, she was also considered to be very short for an actress and was therefore told she was quite ugly for most of her career and also told she was too fat when, at the time, by many fans and viewers Garland was thought to be a very attractive and beautiful woman.

Impersonator section

An anonymous editor keeps adding self-promotion material about a Judy Garland impersonator. I don't want to violate 3RR so maybe someone can take a look at it and perhaps create a section about impersonators without the free ad? 23skidoo 16:35, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

It is never a violation to revert types of vandalism. And advertising or other spam-related links are indeed vandalism and may be reverted freely without violating the 3RR. - Davodd 05:26, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Honored on US postage stamp this year

I didn't see any mention of it in the article, but the USPS will honor Judy Garland on a postage stamp this year as part of the "Legends of Hollywood" series.[1] The first day ceremony for this stamp is expected to be on June 10 2006, in New York City with nationwide availability the on June 12 (the following Monday).[2] (expected stamp image) Slambo (Speak) 20:23, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Untimely death

Looking through the "Closed-lid" discussion above, I think that "on the toilet" should be reinstated. However, I didn't want to edit the article without posting here first; but I am in two minds about this, as it sounds fine as it is ("she was found dead in her bathroom..") but, like it says above, it does "prove" that it was accidental. What do you think? -- LBM 12 April 2006, 20:23 (GMT)

POV moved to talk page

I moved the following here due to its WP:NPOV violation:

- Nonetheless, the stipulation that all Garland fans are gay has become tirsome and out of date among the new non-baby-boomer generation. She is one of the few stars who has maintained her popularity long after her death due to annual showings of The Wizard of Oz and a renewed interest in the era in which she was popular. New Generations are contiually introduced to Judy Garland and her fanbase has become incredibly diverse. It was once said: "all female singers worth their salt, are compared to her". Garland's style of singing was original and because of this her talent/voice is not dated allowing many of her recordings to be remastered to today's technical standards contributing to her on-going popularity as an artist.

It was included in the Legacy in Gay Rights section. - Davodd 17:26, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

constant struggle for recognition

I think it is important to include the detail that Garland resented the fact that many people know her only as Dorothy from "The Wizard of Oz" and it is important to note that she resented that quite a bit. she constantly struggled to remove herself from that label which was placed on her so early in her career although she continued to fail. Much of the world only regards her as having portrayed Dorothy in the film adaptation of Frank Baum's wonderful children's book but in reality she was a very talented actress as an adult more so than as a child. She was a wonderful singer and horribly misunderstood woman who still doesn't get much of the recognition and respect that is due her.

Whilst I echo your sentiments, I think that the article shows enough information on Garland's personal life/feelings; perhaps just a few lines about this would help? To include something along the lines of your message above (particularly the last sentence) would be considered by some on here to be a POV. Also, you wrote she constantly struggled to remove herself from that label which was placed on her so early in her career although she continued to fail - the part that is bolded doesn't seem quite true. Anyone else? LBM 17:31, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the articel is a very good one and reflects a good overview of her life (I do think the Gay Icon stuff is a bit much - but appreciate that it has interest for some and although I would include some items that are of particualr interest to me, I realise that the article is a general one and provides the opportunity for individual to do their own research into whatever aspect of her life they wish. I also agree that it appears from various material that Garland did feel under-valued as an actress throughout her life and to a degree wanted to get out from the "Dorothy" label - yes she wanted to play more substantial and glamourous roles and when she did do them she did succeed - e.g. The Clock, A Star is Born, Judgement at Nuremburg and I Could Go on Singing all demonstrated that she was a fine actress but she also turned down roles that also could have demonstrated this such as The Three Faces of Eve, The Helen Morgan Story and several others in favour of pursuing her live performances - In the early 60s she was in the same boat as many of her (more glamourous) MGM peers in that in the early 60s these ladies found themselves at a point in their lives when although still young in their early 40s - they were surplus to requirements in film and opportunity was greatly reduced - Judy was luckier than most in that her early body of work was so good and her talent endeared her beyond the screen and she could pursue a very successful career as a singer worldwide - but none-the-less she was a woman and from an age in Hollywood where looks were very important so to a degree she was concerned about aging and forever being linked to a 17 year old girl next door image - but Garland never "failed" she was smart enough to realise that whilst on a personal level she may have wanted to have progressed beyond that teenage image - she knew it was that image that was her bread and butter and also knew that it would become increasingly difficult to live up to it the older she got. In the early 60s she was at the height of her career but by the mid-sixties this had changed dramatically, partially due to the emense pressure she was under - she was facing bankruptcy, her house and belongings were taken away, her earnings were taken by the government for unpaid taxes, she was (probably) in the early stages of menopause which in a perfect life can be stressful, she was the mother of young children and the bread-winner, she had guilt over her relationship with her mother and was estranged from her extended family, she was addicted to prescription drugs and the one thing she could bank on to bail her out throughout her life - her voice - was no longer reliable and she had no choice but to keep going - her health was deteriorating no doubt due to increased stress that triggered increased addiction problems - she couldn't earn money in the USA which forced her to perform in London and Europe - is it any wonder that the lady just wore out at 47? She didn't even have a home to go to anymore. Yes she may have been misunderstood but this misunderstanding was more related to her personal life and behaviour that was the result of the afore mentioned personal issues that were not publicised at the time and (maybe) perhaps she didn't get the recognition that she deserved as an actress while alive - but there isn't a singer alive or dead that has had the accolades that she received while still alive, she is recognised and respected as a monumental musical talent - her work holds up today and her films do attract a new audience with each generation and her recordings are continually remastered and re-issued and I dare say that these probably out sell her 2 living daughters record sales combined. Her life and her work are continually analysed and she has a very valued place in American culture in both film and music. During her life she demonstrated an engaging wit, a talent for writing and overall a persona that did not seem to realise how good she was - she remained for the most part an ordinary person with an extraordinary talent, she was a musical genius and no doubt worked hard at her craft - but managed to keep it real and natural, which is why she has lasted and will continue to last as long as people can hear. Judy Garland failed at nothing other than taking care of hereself. Sorry to be so long winded. 86.12.253.32 23:04, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you on many points there, you weren't long winded at all. I enjoyed reading your comments, but I'm not sure that most of that would fit into a "neutral" article, because (as you said) people come onto to Wikipedia not just to edit/add, but to find research. Perhaps adding at least something along those lines would be a good idea. LBM 23:39, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

No problem - perhaps some of it could be used but under guidelines I think it falls under POV - but I do think a section / sub-heading within the main article on JG's ancestry is appropriate or is as appropriate as some sub-headings in that we are products of our ancestral heritage and it does dictate to a degree how we look, react and engage with life - historical figures nearly always have an ancestral line discussed for these reasons and Garland's heritage is very interesting in its own right and is representative of the American Dream although perhaps not directly related to her celebrity status but I am not willing to put the effort in when another editor "thinks" it is irrelevant cuts it out. I also beleive that the issue of the commemorative stamp should be moved into the main article with the appropriate link as her (short) life has certainly produced an extraordinary amount of positive recognistion and her body of work is well respected - at the risk of being controversial which is not my intent but rather my opinion - I beleive that the continual "importance" of Garland as a Gay Icon has resulted in reduced appreciation due to "homophobia" for instance - children do love her films - but when they become teens will shy away due to fear of labeling - but I do beleive that this link is over played and would question how and who determined that 12,000 men in the group of 22,000+ that filed past her coffin were gay? Who counted them? What was the mechanism used to determine this? But as we agree that hte article is a very good one and is a combination of many interests editing is and can be subjective - so this questionable statistic remains but i beleive that it is a POV rather than an established fact. 145.229.156.40 11:34, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Dead references

When I converted the references to the new standard, all but three of the references listed here were dead references. Apparently some of them were added by an anon editor. I have no idea if any of them can be saved or not. Valentinian ^(talk) 22:30, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Hi, I added many of the other entries to begin with, not realizing that the "References" section was intended to be strictly bibliographic (another poster had previously added some Garland bios, etc. to that section). Apologies for the confusion! Noting similar sections on other actor's pages, I've just added a "Further Reading" section with noted Garland bios and similar books of interest.

I also made a few small additions/addenda to the "Early Childood" and "albums" sections.

)

how is she gay is she married men?

somebody answer me this

What are you talking about - where does it say she was "gay"? She married men and had affairs with repudiated to be gay e.g Tyrone Power, Vincent Minnelli and Mark Herron (he was having it off with her son-in-law Peter Allen!) but whilst some biographies of her allude that she may have had a lesbian fling in her early days she was not gay but rather exclusively hetrosexual. An often overlooked fact in her life is that Vincent Minnelli was old enough to be her father and was in actuality only a year or 2 younger than her mother - why she would have married a "confirmed bachelor" in his 40s that was clearly effeminate and wore by all accounts more make-up than she did when she was only in her 20s and at the height of her career and youthful beauty is at the least amazingly bad taste on her part - no gaydar! How the studio and her mother allowed it is also a bit of a mystery too. Poor Judy, is it any wonder she had no self-esteem going through a marriage like that and having to be sure it all remained undercover to protect the child they shared, but she still continued to make similar mistakes - she was drawn to homosexual / bi-sexual men - Tyrone Power, Vincent Minnelli, Mark Herron and probably Mickey Deans. The real pity is that she didn't have Tyrone Power's baby - it would have been a beautiful child.

Please sign your comments. I don't believe it has ever been claimed that she was gay (though one needs only look at Rock Hudson's case to see that reports of marriages and alleged love affairs don't always indicate the truth. It has been claimed that she was bisexual, however. Also, one doesn't need to be gay to be considered a "gay icon" in any event. 23skidoo 13:30, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes - I think the above first question about being "gay" is a mis-understanding by the poster - and I do agree that there were cover-ups during the "golden age" of Hollywood as you indicate with Mr Hudson's case - George Nader was the sacrificial lamb for that cover-up the studio outed Nader rather than Hudson and of course it ruined Nader's career - but in Judy's case I don't beleive that any indescreations that she may have had were at a level for a cover up - all biographies indicate clearly that she was a woman who loved men and needed to be loved by men - she was by all accounts a captivating and enchanting creature and was found to be very attractive by men although she never beleived in her own allure - I think perhaps (and this is my own opinion)in the last years of her life after the "gay Icon" staus/image began to take hold she found herself more vulnerable to this fan base because of a variety of personal circumstances that she could not control and as such was surrounded less and less by hetrosexual men - but she has never been identified or proven to be "gay". 145.229.156.40 16:05, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Garland's Appearance

Yes the studio dressed her in "plain" and "childish" costumes as she was also publicised at that time to be 2 years younger than what she was - so at 14 they were saying she was 12 etc. this went on until the Wizard of Oz - part of that rationale was due to the fact that she was seen in the early stages of her MGM days as a answer to Shirley Temple who was a few years younger than Judy - and there were no female "teen" stars before Judy (she was the first Pop Star). Judy's pre Oz films gradually began to show not only her talent but that she was "pretty" but photographed a bit "chubby" mainly due to the fact that they were trying to dress a budding teen as a "flat chested" 12 year old so she appeared a bit busty - but once OZ came out they realised that they had a "goldmine" because even made-up plain she photographed very pretty. However they were in a dilema because they themseleves had promoted her in the pre-Oz films as either the "girl next door" or an "Ugly Duckling" that only got the boy after the boy saw through her plain appearance to her "heart of gold". Nellie Kelly was Garland's "transitional" film in that it was a test by the studio to see exactly what her appeal and potential was, e.g she was allowed to have "girlie" and stylish clothes hats and hairstyles - the role was perfect for her sterotypical Irish looks and although filmed in Black and White her naturally auburn hair was lightened to a more definite red colour and the film also demonstrated that she had real acting ability in that she went from comedy to tragedy equally with ease (it was her only death scene on film). The film was well received and helped MGM to find an "image" for her which although was not glamourous it wasn't the ugly duckling either. Presenting Lily Mars was the film where she got the full "star" treatment and MGM was delighted with the result as - she was in that film clearly beautiful with a luminous complexion, stunning legs and although she was short - she didn't photograph short because of her long legs and short waist she was and could be every bit as much a "glamour" girl as some of the more "beautiful" stars of the day (it is interesting to examine her look at this time as it was very similar to the young Marilyn Monroe who was never considered anything but beautiful) and the "Lily Mars" look was kept for a short period - However MGM also realised that they had enough "glamour" girls and Judy being naturally pretty was a better option for the type of films and roles they had planned for her - someone once said she was pretty enough for men to fall in love with her but not beautiful enough for women to be jealous of her, which was a good marketing ploy for films of the time - Judy Garland's down to earth image - was very marketable and spawned a line of dolls, clothes, jewelry and other items which again, aside from Shirley Temple was unprecidented at the time, she was more natural and this fitted both her personality and screen persona - she was in as much demand for make-up and other promotional work as those colleagues that were deemed to be more "beautiful or sexy" She posed for popular pin-up photographs for the troops and had a bomber named after her by the Airforce - she was by no means under-appreciated looks wise by the American public. However if she couldn't sing MGM probably would have kept the "glamourous" look or relegated her to "character" or supporting roles and ultimately let her go because she did not easily match the mold that so many of her contemporaries were pushed into e.g. Ava Gardner, Maureen O'Hara, Hedy Lamar, Rita Hayworth etc. but no doubt she (probably) would have had better self esteem if they had not tried to make her into something she was not by telling her that she needed this work in the early days of her career as a pre-teenage girl when looks and self worth are so very important to cultivate. I think she valued her look in Meet Me in St Louis and The Clock because these were the first films where her starting point was deemed to be good e.g she wasn't being told "we have to make you look better" but rather was being told at the starting point "you are pretty" so these films weren't "experiments" with her look as some of her previous films had been and she could finally get rid of the nose discs that were inserted to give her naturally upturned nose more of a pixie look which she hated using as they were uncomfortable. 86.12.253.32 10:44, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Added Value?

'singer-songwriter Rufus Wainwright sold out Carnegie Hall with two performances billed as "the entire classic album of Judy Garland's famous 1961 concert." NPR ran a feature story June 10, 2006 including Garland concert excerpts and an interview with Wainwright.' I am not sure if this additional info is of any added value to teh article that's purpose is to establish facts about Judy Garland - Therefore the section should end with the Carnegie Hall album has never been out of print which is a significant fact. Perhaps Wainwright's tribute is more appropriate on Rufus Wainright's own article with a link to Garland's ratehr than the otehr way around or perhaps under a sub heading of "Professional Tributes to Judy Garland" although this would leave every drag artist open to a "self promotion". but am not sure? Vono 11:26, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Page View

Full page with links categories references not deleted but also not showing?86.12.253.32 14:42, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Continuing Legacy

This heading could be enhanced by demonstrating that Garland’s wide appeal was beyond the borders of America for instance: French singer Mireille Mathieu [3] has stated that Garland along with Edith Piaf was one of her idols. In 1996 in Los Angeles she sang a critically acclaimed tribute to Judy and was caled the "French" Judy Garland. Similarly, Irish singer Maura O'Connell [4],[5] has stated that she wanted to be Judy Garland as a little girl in County Clare. Both ladies, like Garland are from musical families and have strong powerful voices as well as a softer and more emotional range. They are extremely successful recording artists and performers in their native countries as well as internationally. Both have sung with the leading singers and musicians around the world and are well respected. However they started their careers long after Garland died, demonstrating a worldwide popularity and lasting appeal that is perhaps unique. Welsh singers Charlotte Church and Shirley Bassey have also cited Garland as an influence as has Disco Queen Donna Summer, 60s folk singer Bob Dylan and Liverpool's own Cilla Black has named Judy too. Actress Brittany Murphy [6], has named her as an influence as has Diane Keaton

in 1977, Queen of Comedy Lucille Ball stated that in her opinion Judy Garland was the funniest woman in Hollywood; a significant honour coming from that source.

In 1999 there was a major tribute to her at the Palladium in London (similar to what Rufus Wainwright did recently) hosted by Lorna Luft at which many celebrities were cued up to sing tributes to her at that venue with a heart-felt oration given by Sir John Mills that received a standign ovation - Performers included Elaine Page, Jane Horricks (the star of Little Voice) who claims Garland as an early influence and even Tom Jones.

There have been songs written about her some that come to mind are:

"Quiet Please There is a Lady on Stage" by son-in-law Peter Allen "Heart on Demand" by folk singer John Gorka "Saint Judy" by punk artist Marc Almond--I don't think many people that know Marc Almond's discography would consider him "punk". Certainly electronica, cabaret, techno might work, but definitely not punk.

"Lament for Judy Garland" by Irish song-writer Mickey MacConnell [7]

Many muscians, lyricists, composers and singers have praised her as a bench mark to aspire to as a performaer as well as an inspiration and role model. However singing aside, Judy Garalnd set the standard for the 'ingenue' role during the 40s and all those teens that came after were patterned on her success but never quite achieved it in the same way on screen e.g June Allyson, Debbie Reynolds, Elizabeth Taylor, Debra Paget, Janet Leigh, Doris Day,

Judy was an original that still holds up today - she did not copy anyone but has inspired countless talents to try and be like her - all of this demonstrates her "worthyness" as a celebrity and certainly underpins that it is ultimately her (unique) talent and genius that has stood the test of time - her roller-coaster persoanl life is only a side-line to the talent.

Plus the Australian musical "End of the Rainbow" starring Caroline O'Connor charts the last few months of Judy's life and features many of her most famous songs and has been so successful in Australia it has officially been selected for the 2006 Edinburgh Festival. I've added it to the final article, see the following link for verification: http://www.carolineoconnor.com.au/1_stage_&_screen_end_of_the_rainbow.htm

Awards

Also Garland won many awards over her life-time and perhaps they too should be listed as as an exclusive heading.

She won the Golden Globe in 1954 - a fact often overlooked in favour of her Oscar loss, she won a special Tony and of course the five grammys

Recently in a make-up promotion in Dublin for "Ireland's Most Beautiful Woman" she was named as one of the all time Hollywood beauties in the company of Audrey Hepburn![8] a fact that probably would have amused her and secretly pleased her.

Collectibles

How about a brief section or paragraph on how collectible her image is: in 1939 Ideal Toy issued a Judy Garland doll (endorsed by her) that was very succssfull and again a Teenage Judy Garland doll was issued in 1942 also very popular - both thes dolls are very collectible (more so than Shirley Temple dolls as they are rarer)

She has been featured as a doll probably more than any other celebrity. 1939 - Ideal Toy - Judy Garland as Dorothy 1942 Ideal Toy - Judy Garland Teenage Doll 1974 Mego - Judy Garland as Dorothy 1970s Peggy Nesbitt Dolls - Meet Me in St Louis 1980s Frankilin Mint Porcelain Doll - Judy Garland as Dorothy 1980s - World Doll - Judy Garland Easter Parade 1980 - Mary Kay Dolls - Porcelain A Star is Born 1980s Effanbee Dolls - Judy Garland as Dorothy 1990s Mattel - Barbie as Dorothy 1990s Mattel Judy Garland Porcelain Barbie 2000s Madame Alexander - Judy Garland - Get Happy 2000s Madame Alexander - Judy Garland - meet Me in St Louis

All these dolls were very popular and remain collectible due to her continued popularity

Her image has been widely merchandised over the years on Christmas ornamanets, a wide range of figurines running the gambit from expensive porcelain (Lenox has recently issued one) to other materials of all shapes and sizes, music boxes, jewelry, clothes, handbags, teapots, collectible limited edition plates, greeting cards etc. and I imagine that this popularity will continue well into the future.

I don't think that a comprehensive list is appropriate but beleive that a reference to this "accomplishment" is appropriate in the article.

Garland's Voice compariosn with Frank Sinatra

Judy Garland's voice was unique - it was powerful and had a wide range - although I am not an expert I expect that thsi range in her day was superior to Sinatra's - Sinatra had nothing but admiration for Garland stating that she will be remembered long after enveryone else - or something to that effect and he probably was right - I have no problem with the statmentif it can be cited as fact through a source. garalnd was a unique talent that has influenced many copiers but she herself was original and sang in her own stly which is why her voice is not dated - some of the musical arrangements may be dated but her voice is as fresh and as unique today as it was 60 years ago.86.12.253.32 21:11, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

You are clearly not an expert if you use an adjective like "quivering" to describe a voice; "quivering" connotes fear. You should only make contributions about areas in which you have expertise. 66.108.4.183 22:28, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Why are we bothering to compare Garland's voice to anyone's? Any why Sinatra? Why not Elvis? Britney Spears? Tiny Tim? I see no use for such a thing at all. If there was any such discussion in the article, it has been removed already so I support that. If someone can find a website that contains a scholarly comparison between Garland and Sinatra (or whomever) I see no reason why that can't be listed as an external link. 23skidoo 22:34, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I'll agree that the comparison to Sinatra is POV, and keep it deleted, but I wish that the contributor who continues to insert an adjective like "quivering" to describe a voice only make contributions about areas in which s/he has expertise. "Quivering" connotes fear; the writer may have intended "quavering" which, however, is equally irrelevant and musically just as meaningless. Please see vibrato.66.108.4.183 22:28, 4 July 2006 (UTC) Allen Roth

Yes I agree with all the comments but want to be clear - I am not an expert BUT I am not the editor who has used and keeps using the word "quivering" - I don't like that word either - vibrato is appropriate as many descriptions of Garland's voice refer to her vibrato - although she did have a natural tremor or inflection in her voice that made it more vulnerable when singing sad, emotional or traditional ballads - it can be heard particularly in "The Wearing of the Green", "Have Yourself a Merry Little Christmas" and "How About Me" and of course later in "Oh Shenendoah" or when she sang at a soft or high register,as she often did during the 40s this 'inflection' disappeared when she was belting a song out In her youth she was able to control her vibrato which became more difficult as she experienced health problems later in life or towards the end of her life. I agree that her voice should not be compared to anyone's as - where would it end - unless as a previous editor sates it is documented somewhere. The voices of her 2 daughters have been compared to hers quite often with Lorna seeming to be the winner in that her voice is almost indistinguishable from her mother's and has a simialr range - if she tries to sound like her mother she can do it identical whereas Liza is more the show stopper with more pizazz and gimmicks but ultimately a lesser quality voice - but both daughters have inherited the "vibrato" that was a family trait. Again Lorna can still control the vibrato but Liza doesn't seem able to. Vono 23:20, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Ancestry

I have added informationon on Garland's ancestry. She had a very impressive family background and contrary to the idea that this ancestry only became evident after she was famous is incorrect in that the Gumms were a very established southern family albeit that their wealth was for the most part lost after the civil war they remained influential and were teachers, merchants, soldiers, politicians and clergy. Her mother's family was equally impressive in that it was a very large Irish/Scottish mid-west musical family - Garland's mother was the eldest of 8 children, Garland was raised in close proximity of her 7 aunts and uncles and her 9 Great Uncles and Aunts who were the siblings of Grandma Eva and many cousins from these 2 generations - she was contrary to belief the "darling" of this large family. She remained very close to her Milne and Fitzpatrick extended family until the death of her Grandmother (Eva Fitzpatrick Milne) who lived with her in California until 1949. Eva was the matriarch of this large family and it is agreed that whilst Garland's powerful voice came from her father, the Gumm's were not performers or particularly musical her personality and performing style and musical range was said to have come from her maternal family with whom she had a close relationship and the rift in the family only occured in 1953 due to the circumstances of Garland's mother's death in 1953 at which time she was estranged from her mother. However it is fair to say that Ethel's death at 60 had not been forseen by Judy or the rest of the family due partly to the longevity of Eva. 86.12.253.32 18:05, 28 July 2006 (UTC) Vono

Ancestry is an important part of any historical figure's biography and as such should be included in this article to allow research. However I beleive that the segment could be a bit more concise and welcome any edits that can shorten it while still retaining the interesting facts.

Vono 09:42, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Removed from GA list

I have unlisted this article from the GA list. As detailed in the Drug Use section above, it is my contention that any article with unreferenced and potentially libellous statements cannot be a good article. The allegations that MGM introduced her to drugs needs to referenced and presented as just that - allegations. The Biography section at least gives a TV show citation for some of the assertions, which is a start, but there needs to be proper referencing (preferably of resources available online or on paper) throughout the Addictions section. Matt Deres 02:42, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

The addiction section needs to be rewritten anyway because of all the POV and weasel words. Sarah Ewart (Talk) 10:46, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Although I agree with your need for improvement and the de-list from GA, It is impossible to libel a dead person. Davodd 20:14, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Judy isn't the one being libelled, MGM is. I'm not saying it even is libel in the strictest definition, I'm just pointing out that any serious allegations of this kind should be well-referenced or left out. Matt Deres 02:22, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Addiction references

I've done some research on Factiva and have a number of articles which could be used as references for the addiction section, but I don't have time to rewrite it myself. Let me know if anyone would like to do it and I'll make the articles available. Sarah Ewart (Talk) 10:43, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Final Concert

Garland's final concert in Denmark should appear in the article - however - an "OFF Broadway" show was based on it not a 'Broadway' show- starrign Adrienne Barbeau which was not a tremendous success - but the Final Concert should appear in the article but should only be factual - it was not a "legendary" concert nor a 'milestone in her career -but rather merely her last concert. For the most part her last appearances were not her best and were not triumphs althoulh Denmark appears to have been better received than her last London performances were. It should be put back in to the article but simply with the date and the indication that it was her last concert.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ekGNiucXY_k

"Judy didn't die, she just plain wore out."

According to these links [9] [10] [11] the quote was delivered by Ray Bolger during an address at Garland's funeral. The full quote was either "Judy [Garland] didn’t die of anything, except wearing out. She just plain wore out." or "Judy didn't die, she just plain wore out." News footage is archived [12] [13], but I'm not sure whether it includes the quote as the recording it is not on the web (only the metadata).

Death Tornado

It is said that the day she died there was a tornado in Kansas.

Added by User:74.134.94.110 [14]

I've found several mentions of this fact, with very similar wording in several places online by using Google. I can't find any reference to the tornado itself (where, when, strength, etc) separate from Judy Garland's death. If anyone else can find a source, feel free to add it back (with reference, of course). Benabik 00:50, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Myths & Rumours Sections in Article

Over the years there have been many myths and rumours about Garland (as with all famous people) and she herself contributed to these partly for entertainment sake and partly to justify her own actions in some cases. For instance her realtionship with her mother there is evidence that garland's mother was not the evil witch she has been portrayed as - in fact the rift in Garland's family occured because her many relations including her own sisters disputed this image she put forward - but in any event the section does not add any value unless the statements are referenced through a source. This type of un-sourced opinion reduces factual content of this article and its chances of being re-categorised as a GA. I beleive that if statement are not sourced they have no value. There has never been a reference to Garland using street drugs in allies in any of the numerous biographies and articles written about her - it is simply rediculous and has no place in the article ( unless it is sourced) . 145.229.156.40 16:17, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Rumors and myths can be useful... However, I'd think that they only belong in an encyclopedia along side references to the origins or existence of the myths and most especially note if they are true, false, or unverifiable (similar to Snopes). A random collection of things random editors think to be true or rumors instead of scholarly discussion of urban legends falls under WP:NOR, I'd think. -- Benabik 22:35, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I admit, the rumors section was a bad choice, but the myths are justifiable, I think - stories she told that passed on into legendary status that get associated with her as truth.

Notes on 'Stage' Section

I am currently working on getting sources for the information on Judy Garland's two possible theatrical stage production. They are referenced and noted in a Broadway History book - I am currently seeking out that book again from various sources, but they are documented in print.

Radio Star / Looks

It is true that immediately after signing Garland to a contract at age 12 MGM was not sure what to do with her. However it was clear that the 'little' girl could sing and Radio was a natural platform to promote her - BUT this was only for a short period and not at the expense of film roles as she was in films in leading parts from the age of 13 at which time Pigskin Parade was filmed at Fox , She was 14 when it was released and because she was a singer/actress MGM continued to exploit this double talent throughout her entire career at MGM not just in teh early years- she made many many radio appearances right through her film career and well into the 50s and was a popular and sought after guest star on broadcasts particualrly those going overseas to the troops - she rarely was able to turn down a radio appearance. This additional pressure contributed to her popualrity as well as her hectic work schedule - most popular actresses could "turn off" when they went home - Garland a vivacious and popular teenager had to work all day on film, go to the recording studio in between to make records and go to the Radio studios to perform at night-is it any wonder she was worn out and needed stimulants to survive or that her relationship with her mother and extended family suffered? - All of this pressure contributed to the breakdown of her family life and to poor choices in husbands and lovers - excessive work was the norm for her with some personal fun squeezed in beetween but ususally the fun was attached to the work and with people who were equally under as much pressure for similar reasons she could never just tune out - she had to always be JUDY GARLAND.

The Pirate

The Pirate was not a "pathetic" sight at the box office - it was a disappointing result but MGM was not concerned with it as they cast her in several films after it and let Minnelli direct many more films after it. The success of Easter Parade off-set the Pirate's failure - MGM should have apportioned the greater blame on Minnelli for the failure of the Pirate because the concept was great and the songs were great and Garland was great in it but his direction and the phony sets ruined it - it was clear that he was promoting Kelly rather than Garland and she knew this too! Minnelli ruined that film - it should have been filmed better. However it is clear that MGM tried to slant the blame for its box-office failure toward Garland due to her erratic behaviour that was fed by the knowledge that she was in a turkey and her husband didn't care! Today the film's only saving grace is Garland's performance without her it would be totally forgotten.

Class A Article

I believe that Judy's article is a fine article, is very very informative to anyone who is not familiar with Judy, but could still use some finer citations and documenting.