Talk:Kaidan (disambiguation)

Requested move 8 October 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved -- JHunterJ (talk) 11:05, 15 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Kaidan → Kaidan (disambiguation)
Kaidan (literature) → Kaidan

The main page, now located at Kaidan (literature) was recently moved without discussion by the creator of the article on Kaidan Alenko (a fictional character of dubious notability, whose page had been a redirect since 2013 and who likely no one will be talking about in 116 years). Most of the other topics are various books of ghost stories and the like, and so are subordinate to the main article on Japanese ghost stories.

While normally one would expect a Google Books search to favour the old Japanese ghost stories and a Google News search to favour the modern video game, of the first 30 Google News hits[1][2][3] it seems seven are about one or another of the ghost story topics while only three relate to the video game character, while several are about perhaps-notable sportspeople and definitely-not-notable small children who apparently have the same given name as the character. Even adding the search term "game" brought up only these sportspeople on the first page,[4] several of which appear to be a misspelling of Kaiden Guhle's name and yet still somehow take priority over the Mass Effect character. Given this, it should go without saying that the GBooks hits overwhelmingly favour the Japanese ghost stories, and I couldn't find a single reference to the video game character on any of the first five pages -- the closest I could find was an American sci-fi novel from the 2000s with a character named Gul Kaidan. Granted, a large number of the GBooks results refer specifically to Yotsuya Kaidan, but that play is, as far as I am aware, never referred to in either Japanese or English as simply "Kaidan".

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 09:57, 8 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I do think Kaidan (literature) is WP:PRIMARYTOPIC in terms of long-term significance, but several pages (the Mass Effect character and the 2007 film) seem to garner more views, and there are a lot of entries on the page. This is kind of close in my head, and in cases like that I tend to side with keeping the base name at DAB.--Ortizesp (talk) 13:15, 8 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Ortizesp: Thank you for your comment! For what it's worth, I think the large number of entries at present actually argue in favour of the WP:BROAD article covering the majority of them being the primary topic regardless of whether one sub-article gets more page views than the hub-article. That being said, I think you may have been tricked by a technical glitch in the page view counter, since I moved Kaidan (literature) to its current title to fix an obvious error in the short term before opening this RM several hours later. The actual page views in the last 30 days are:

8,152 for the 1964 film, a sub-topic of the Lafcadio Hearn book, itself a sub-topic of the literary genre
4,988 for the 1825 play, a sub-topic of the literary genre (as addressed above)
2,009 for the Lafcadio Hearn book, a sub-topic of the literary genre
1,866 for the literary genre that is the proposed primary topic (under the title "Kaidan (parapsychology)")
1,009 for the Mass Effect character
1,006 for the 2007 film, a sub-topic of the literary genre
68 for the 1956 film, a sub-topic of the 1825 play, itself sub-topic of the literary genre
63 for the band (whose name derives from an unrelated Japanese word meaning "stairs")

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 15:44, 8 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I am the person who originally disambiguated the title. I should point out though that when I disambiguated the page, I didn't designate the video game character as the primary topic, but under "Other Uses" towards the bottom of the page, so I am perplexed by your comments about dubious notability or longevity of relevance when that article was never designated as the primary topic of the disambiguated page, and anyway it has nothing to do with the topic of discussion for the disambiguation move. As this is a cultural topic specific to the language and history of a particular nation, the term Kaidan will likely remain as an obscure subject of discussion in English language sources and media for the next 100 years, unless Japanese ghost stories becomes the dominant subgenre in English horror fiction.

Anyway, I don't really have a lot to say on the subject itself as I am not knowledgeable enough in this aspect, but @Hijiri88 thanks for providing the stats. The sheer number of disparate entries is the reason why I did the disambiguation in the first place. Wasn't sure if the primary topic is either a literature genre, or an oral folklore concept. If you feel this is the better way to present the concept of Kaidan as a literary topic, then please do. Haleth (talk) 16:34, 8 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I am perplexed by your comments about dubious notability or longevity of relevance when that article was never designated as the primary topic of the disambiguated page All the high-page-view articles are on subtopics of the literary genre, which is why no one questioned its primacy in 14 years. The only unrelated article with page views remotely close is the Mass Effect character, which you created shortly before unilaterally deciding that the literary genre was not the primary topic. No one is saying you unilaterally decided that the Mass Effect character was the primary topic, but you definitely decided that the literary genre was not, despite the fact that the various sub-pages of the literary genre collectively have about 20 times the monthly page views of all the others. Anyway, notability: the Mass Effect character is, as stated above, an article several other editors had tried to create over a period of around seven years, and always had the page redirected, his name appears a total of one time in our articles on Mass Effect 2 and Mass Effect 3 combined, and excluding him it seems only 3/7 of the ME3 squadmates have their own articles, of which all three are iconic non-human characters who I can recognize as being from Mass Effect just by looking at them despite never having played any of the games -- but this is not an AFD and I am not interested in getting in an argument over the independent notability of fictional characters, so I would appreciate it if this were the last thing said on the matter. As for longevity, it is indisputable that more sources will still be talking about Edo-Showa Japanese literary/cinematic works with kaidan in their titles than the Mass Effect character in 100 years, since it's been less than 10 years since Mass Effect 3 and already more popular news media are seemingly back to talking about Japanese ghost stories. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 04:58, 9 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Should not have been moved in the first place. Almost everything on this dab page is a partial title match and has no bearing on the primacy of the term "Kaidan", with the exception being Kaidan (2007 film). The original primary topic wins the historical significance argument. —Xezbeth (talk) 07:08, 9 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Record label

As of the 2010s the name is also for a record label, at least for the modern pop-rock group Nouvelle Vague (band). But no article on that label yet.Dogru144 (talk) 19:05, 13 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]