Talk:Kelly Clarkson/Archive 5

Detailed Idol Performance Article

It simply doesn't seem necessary to include a full length article about Clarkson's performances on Idol. The table depicts which songs Clarkson chose, and overall explains her experiences on American Idol. However, to investigate into each performance just bogs down the article. Just my $0.02. Danielh8675 02:29, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Conflict with Clive Davis

Is it necessary to mention anything about Clive Davis in this article? It's mentioned in the My December article. The album is what has sparked controversy, but Clarkson and Davis have obviously made public statements and whatnot. I'm just wondering if it's worth mentioning in this article. Danielh8675 15:10, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

I think it deserves one sentence, simply because I came to the Kelly Clarkson article today because I read something and thought "What conflict with Clive Davis?" People who don't follow Clarkson's career in the tabloids don't even know what the conflict is, much less that there is a "My December" album to which it relates. I searched the page and found nothing "Clive", so, had I not come *here* to the "talk" page, I would have thought that the thing I read today was wrong instead of realizing that this article itself was lacking information.

Just my 2 cents.Saudade7 14:43, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

March of Dimes Team Youth Celebrity Ambassador

In 2004, Kelly Clarkson pretty became the first Team Youth Celebrity Ambassador for the March of Dimes. [www.marchofdimes.com/youth]

Kelly continues to support the March of Dimes mission to ensure all babies are born healthy.

Visit the March of Dimes Team Youth web site [www.marchofdimes.com/youth] to view a Public Service Announcement featuring Kelly Clarkson and find out more about what she is doing to help save babies. --Liz Fleuette, March of Dimes 22:26, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

kellys jobs growing up

• she worked at Fastaco a restaurant in Burleson texas
• please list any others here and post —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Royissick (talk • contribs) 17:57, 2 March 2007 (UTC).
• She worked at a Zoo in Forth Worth, Texas. She sold Kirby Vaccums and also worked for a long time in a movie theatre in Burleson, Texas. All of this was according to her "Behind Hazel Eyes" DVD in which her friends commented on her previous jobs, and Kelly also commented on working in the Zoo. There were others but I would need to watch the DVD again.

Newer?

Can we get a newer picture of Kelly?(Trampton 11:14, 7 March 2007 (UTC)).

Yeah that's a horrible picture of her. I'll change it to a more recent My December era picture.

Just make sure the photo is in accord with our copyright policies. -- P.B. Pilhet 01:27, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Genres

Dance-Pop???, Contemporary Ballad???. What happened to just Pop and Pop/Rock. That was better.

Kelly Clarkson clearly does not belong in pop/rock which is where The Killers or Evansancce would be. Pop is about as "hard" as her music gets. "You can take the girl out of AMI but you can't take the AMI out of the girl. -Catherine Huebscher 08:28, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Agree completely. - hmwithtalk 22:08, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Label(s)

Why are there so many labels listed in the infobox. Shouldn't it just be RCA? - Maria202 21:43, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Who keeps on changing the labels? Her labels are RCA/Sony BMG Music Entertainment. S Records and 19 Entertainment were her old labels.

No sources are given whenever the labels are changed. Acalamari 01:46, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm horrible with computer stuff so no idea where to 'give the source', so I'll just put it here. http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=30712181 That's Kelly's official myspace and if you look at the General Info the labels are 'RCA-Sony BMG'. FufuTofu 01:49, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

I could put the source in for you, but I don't think that MySpace is an appropriate source. Can you find a better one than that? Acalamari 02:37, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Well here's the RCARecords site: http://www.rcarecords.com/ It's one of those weird one's where it always has the same site even though it's a different page so you have to go to the "Artists". Also at the bottom of the page it says "RCA Records, a unit of SONY BMG MUSIC ENTERTAINMENT". Finally, if you go to the "Artists" and to Kelly Clarkson, they have a link to her myspace which says her lable is RCA-Sony BMG. I don't know if that site works either but.. ya. FufuTofu 17:03, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

I do wish these wouldn't link to MySpace. All right; I'll take a look at that page soon and see if it's an appropriate source. :) Acalamari 18:31, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

19 was never her label, they were her management until January, 2005, then she signed with TheFirm. her label has always been RCA in the US, and SonyBMG everywhere else (RCA being part of the Sony music group). Confirmation for that can be found simply by resourching the RCA and Sony labels, or look at her cd booklets (it doesn't take a research scientist). You can also check her official UK site at http://kellyclarksonuk.com which is a Sony website, or her official US site at http://kellyclarksonweb.com which is an RCA site, or her fan club at http://kellyclarkson.com which under contract with Kelly and RCA. Alankc 02:44, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

When you go to by her new single on itunes, 19 recordings limited is listed with all the other information. I'm not genius but doesn't that mean that she is somehow currently associated with that label?

Correction/update on article

The article says she hasn't done any acting since her movie with Justin Guarini. But if you check out her website, she talks about being on the Reba show (I've seen the episode, she was very funny!) Check it out! http://www.kellyclarkson.com/main.php?em982=117035_-1__0_~0_-1_3_2007_0_0&content=news

Braveheart2007 15:30, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Duets Single?

On the page it says that Because of You is probably going to be the lead single off of Reba's new duets CD, but on the wikipedia page for that album it says that it is NOT going to be the single, who's right????

{{contradict}}

The place of birth in the infobox and in the actual article are different. Anthony Rupert 09:09, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I removed the Joshua origin. She was born in Ft. Worth. - Maria202 12:55, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

a miracle happened? this doesn't sound objective.

• the whole article seems to be written by her PR staff. How about a fair representation. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 153.104.19.154 (talk) 02:30, 24 April 2007 (UTC).
  • I removed the part about a miracle happening, as it violated WP:NPOV. Acalamari 16:26, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Trivia

The trivia section is still there, but it's now disguised as "Personal life". I mean, read that section; does that have anything to do with her personal life? Anthony Rupert 10:05, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

== Finally... ==

...a decent first picture. --Smokizzy 14:31, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Scratch that. --Smokizzy ^{Review Me! (Please!)} 16:32, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Other Performances

In the "Further Reading" section perhaps it should also mention that she performed the Ray LaMontagne song "Shelter" for the Hurricane Katrina Benefit show that was simulcast on CMT, VH1, and MTV - ReAct Now: Music & Relief. The show aired September 10, 2005.

Is there a more up-to-date photo?

This one is getting a bit dated. 151.200.116.5 02:18, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Poorly written sentences in "Breakaway" section

Clarkson appeared on numerous television programs during the promotional tour for Breakaway, some of which included Saturday Night Live, The Oprah Winfrey Show and The View; she performed the first two singles "Breakaway" and "Since U Been Gone" on Saturday Night Live, which became her first major telecast appearance in order to support the album. "Breakaway", written by Avril Lavigne, served as the original song for The Princess Diaries 2: Royal Engagement (2004) and achieved considerable success across the world; it became Clarkson's third top-ten single in the U.S. and fourth top-ten single in Canada. It reached number ten in Australia, and number 22 in the UK. The song's contemporary pop-rock ambience was one of the several tracks including a stronger rock-influenced sound that had not been heard on Thankful. The second single "Since U Been Gone", which was 'produced' by Max Martin, became the most successful release from the album. Its music video presented Clarkson singing to an underground audience with a full band; cutscenes of Clarkson destroying a former boyfriend's apartment were incorporated. The song's strong rock ambiance allowed it to reach number two in the U.S. and the top five across the world. It also earned Clarkson her first Grammy Award for "Best Female Pop Vocal Performance"; she won a second award for "Best Pop Vocal Album."[25]

First of all, Avril Lavigne was not the primary writer of "Breakaway:' Matthew Gerrard was. Next, the second bolded part is barely understandable. I know what it's trying to say but it's extremely wordy. Minor spelling corrections were made throughout the paragraph. TheKillerAngel 23:17, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Was there something about not changing the Kelly Clarkson photo? I was just thinking of trying to change it and I did. Admins, please dont block me for changing the photo..I was wanted newer photo because that other one has been up there forever. Anyway, I added more photos for Kelly Clarkson on WIkimedia Commons. User:xcv47x 6:48PM, May 29 2007

Kelly's Picture

It is a sweet one yes but not her best.. I am wondering why it says not to change it in the edit section..? Kind Regards, Natalichka.

No, it doesn't say that. It says not to replace it with a "fair use" image. It can be replaced with a public domain image, or an image under a free license. --Rob 05:11, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

There seem to be at least two apparently free images around:

Which one is better for use in the infobox? *Dan T.* 03:00, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Image 2 looked better in the infobox, in my opinion. Image 1 could easily be incorporated further down the article so both images can be used. Acalamari 03:09, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

SUCH a hilariously bad picture. Whoever put it up must have something against Kelly Clarkson, because "unflattering" is about the mildest term I can use for it. - Perilune

Yes, it's obviously a conspiracy. Don't mind the discussion above where it's clearly indicated that Wikipedia can only use a free photo and these are the only ones available at the moment. That's just part of the conspiracy against her. ShadowHalo 06:37, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Image 1 isn't the greatest quality, but I don't see the problem with image 2. Anyway, as was said above, those two images are free, which means they are the ones we should use. Acalamari 16:45, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

yeah thats a horrible picture...id still hit it tho. Robkehr 00:19, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

• This is not a great picture at all, no one can find a better one than this??? I mean come on... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.9.247.219 (talk)

• There is nothing wrong with the image at all; it's decent, and it's a free image. Please don't remove it like you keep doing. Acalamari 17:52, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Both images are OK, although Image 1 has poor contrast: A black outfit against a black background doesn't highlight Kelly Clarkson's figure very well. The close-up of Image 2 is much better quality, although with her hair all over the place, it looks like she's flying an F/A-18 Blue Angels fighter jet with the cockpit open. Her mile-wide smile and "thumbs-up" pose is a good reflection of her "Top Gun" status in contemporary pop-rock and her future outlook on her musical career. With her 2 Grammy awards, wins at the American Music Awards and MTV Video Music Awards, albums in the Billboard 200, numerous Top 10 singles, among her many other accomplishments since her American Idol win in 2002, she's already an accomplished, highly acclaimed female pop-rock vocalist, and her future is looking even brighter. If not already, Kelly Clarkson will soon be an established icon of the 2000s, akin to the likes of "Queen of Soul" Aretha Franklin, Dionne Warwick, Madonna, Celine Dion, and Mariah Carey of the 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s. Therefore, keep Image 2. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Agr0223 (talk • contribs) 20:57, 1 August, 2007 (UTC)

Both are 'free images' (CC2.0 or gov public domain) so there is no WP:FUC issues. On the other hand, if it wasn't stated that the second image was that of Kelly Clarkson, I would not have known. Frankly, its a terrible picture quality wise compared to image 1. Helmet hair is one thing but wind and post cockpit pressuriazation effects has distorted her face (albeit temporarily but its captured on the picture). This picture can be used elsewhere but image 1 suits the infobox better. At least its a recognizable image. --Eqdoktor 05:08, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Those two pictures are horrible! We must find other pictures, I'm sure those are not the only free images in the world... Bull Borgnine 18:21, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I've re-added image 2 back into the article, but it's not in the infobox. Acalamari 18:28, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

First paragraph??

Thought id better alert someone who is able to change the kelly clarkson page that the first paragraph has been tampered with. Angeluk2 23:16, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

ok it has now gone? Angeluk2 23:19, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Has what gone? What are you talking about? Acalamari 23:22, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Citations for Personal Lovelife

If anyone is looking for such, here it is. Berserkerz Crit 08:17, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Songs Mike Watt played on

The article currently states he played on 6 songs on the album, but that is not true. Only 3 of the songs he contributed to made it onto the album and those are Hole, How I Feel, and Can I Have A Kiss. I can't find any site that specifically lists him only on those songs except a post on the Kelly Clarkson Express, so I'll leave that link here[1], but it can also be found in the album booklet. If someone can find a better page, that would be great. I'm new to this so it would be great if someone could edit the article, I'm a bit worried I'll mess it up. GatorJen 22:15, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Nomination for Protection

This site is vandalized several times a day. I suggest that this article be semi-protected since most of the vandals are IP. --Hourick 15:07, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree, it's very tiring to undo the work of vandals because then you give them a warning and by the time you've done that they have vandalized the page again. The sooner the page can be semi-protected the better. HappiestCamper 15:10, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

According to this page's log, it was unprotected by Freakofnurture on June 10. If the vandalism becomes more frequent, I'll semi-protect this article, but only if it becomes more frequent. The current amount of vandalism is not quite enough to warrant semi-protection. Acalamari 15:23, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

That's sounds fair.HappiestCamper 15:41, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

That does sound fair. now it's just a matter of keeping track of the vandalism for the next few days. now that AI is over,I expect it to decrease a tad, but with her record coming out and making individual headlines, that just might uptick it more. --Hourick 15:45, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

People will vandalise anything, like this morning I had to undo vandalism to do with her early life twice. But I do agree we have to keep one eye on the article and the other on the vandals for while. HappiestCamper 15:49, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

The other part that's getting vandalized quite a bit is the infobox: some people don't like the image, and just remove it; but anyway, as we said, we'll keep an eye on the page. I watchlist this article so I'll see all the edits done to it. Acalamari 16:19, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Was wondering what the overall decision might be. I noticed at least 8 counts of vandalism over the past few days alone. I'm sure the "undo" option is starting to get a bit tired. :D--Hourick 23:34, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

I've got it watchlisted too and revert any vandalism I catch. Maria202 12:53, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

At this point, semi-protection still isn't needed. Most of the edits done to the page at the moment aren't vandalism or reverts. However, if it does get to the point where most of the edits done to page are vandalism and reverts, then I'll have to semi-protect, but for now, the vandalism is moderate. Acalamari 15:49, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Is it just me or has the page been vandalized much more recently lately? Just take a look at the history. Semi-protection deosn't seem like such a bad idea right now. Dh993 03:29, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

2008 album

what's all this talk about a new album with songs recorded of clive davis' choosing some days it's on wiki but other days it's not I also found an article on fox news about it http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,291060,00.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.88.175.63 (talk • contribs)

I've read this article, and it seems more so gossip than facts that Clarkson will be releasing a new album specifically with songs of Davis's choosing. We haven't heard anything from Kelly herself, let alone any other tabloids or news articles. I think we should wait for some more sources to verify this information. Danielh8675 19:51, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

On eTalk Extended:

Off-screen Producer(?):"I just..I read that you were working on a new album as well, and just doing a little more work recording and stuff and I just wanted to know a little more about that."

Kelly:"I'm not, I mean I'm not working on anything. I mean I'm always writing for like the next album but we're not recording or anything, anytime soon.

here at 4:30 (FufuTofu 00:26, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Websites

Why is the fan club being removed all the time? It is an official site, and the source for presales, vip tickets, and meet and greets, as well as the site put on all advertising and cd's put out. If any should be removed, the myspace, idmb, and otehrs such as those should go, as they aren't official sources of anything (imdb is pretty much like wikipedia, anyone can add and edit, and not everything sourced or reliable) Alankc 05:33, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the fanclub should be left there, and other links removed. I also think that the Kelly Clarkson Express site (www.kceforum.com) should be placed on here, as it is the main source for Kelly info and has a huge Media site, and is also a site Kelly visits. (EMH88 16:01, 12 September 2007 (UTC))

Fansites, fanclubs, and forums are all considered inappropriate external links, and should not be added. Acalamari 16:30, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

fan clubs are nowadays OFFICIAL websites, under contract with the artist, record label, and management. Every ad, tour promo, album, and promotion displays KELLYCLARKSON.COM, which is her Official fan club. It is also the site Kelly herself posts a journal, which is a resource of credible information, as well as the announcements and press releases that go on the fan club direct from her press agents. Her label run offical sites also link directly to the fan club for most of their content as well, so how is it not an appropriate link?

The express is NOt an appropriate link, it's not even a website, it's only a message board, and a source of alot of the rumors that circulate. As for Kelly visiting it, she vists all her large fansites, as she has mentioned many time sin interviews. Nothing posted on the express boards is officially released information, it's merely copied information. Alankc 04:08, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Alan, is that your personal or professional opinion? Because much like the KCMB once was, the express has been a creditable source for info over the last few years. It's where Kelly herself gets info from before she even knows what's been going on herself. Which she has stated in various interviews also. I don't think I have ever heared her visting sites such as Kellyclarkson.com (except for journals) or KcKellyville. So you should probably find a source for your info right there, too! Although the express is never going to get a link here, I feel I should get my point across because I have been getting the impression that you are only here to promote and spam and act like you know exactly what your doing and saying, when really you don't know much and do not want to learn from the people who know best in this article and talk section and learn from your mistakes. I and others are trying to contribute positivly to this page and at the same time learn. (EMH88 16:35, 19 September 2007 (UTC))

If I was spamming, i'd be putting links to kckellyville.com which I own.. the point of this is, under wiki guidfline, only credible sources should be used, fansites are not considered credible sources.. with the exception of possibly when Kelly's band themselves post on such sites. articles and such can be linked directly to the sources form wikipedia, links to fansites that repost them are not needed. In my opinion, many of the people who edit pages here, especially the Kelly pages, are simply self-promoting. Message baords are not a reliable source because the information can come from anywhere, and doesn't neccessarily mean it is accurate. There have been more changes and edi's on these very pages han I can count where information was false, and taken from fansites and message boards. msot of the wikipedia editors don't know what's real or made up, they either have to assume, or take a fans word for it, which is why they want reliable sources and citations, preferably from real news articles, official sites, press releases, etc... The statement that Kelly herself visits the express, can be said for any fansite. She's been known to click links and prowl around all her fansites. again, that is simply self-promotion for the express. The statement that the express is the main source of kelly info... who's main source? Like any fansite, it has it's regulars, and people who jsut browse now and then.. more people go to the fan club, and official homepage than anywhere else, they jsut don't post as much on the forums there as they do on the fansites. This is the problem with wiki sites themsevles.. anyone can edit the pages, find ways of trying to promote what they feel is right, in spite of the wiki guidelines, or how accurate the information may be, and with all the sysop's and admins, people get away with doing it because the sysop's, admins, beaurocrats, etc.. don't keep up with each individual articles content, they don't know unless there are good resources listed. As for official fanclubs, my views on them are professional, including Kelly's which I was an administrator on it's first 6 months. They aren't allowed to publishnews and updates ont he site until it's approved by management and record label. They are under direct contract with RCA/SonyBMG and KElly herself, Kelly is the one who hired them, and pays them to have her fanclub online. I'm associated with several other official fanclubs, which all work the same way. They aren't run by fans the way they used to be before thr world of the internet came around. They have become a business. Alankc 23:28, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Name

Never in the years I have been an avid fan of Kelly have I ever come across her "sometimes known" as K-clark? Interesting. I changed it to KC, hope I'm not treading on anyones toes. (EMH88 16:01, 12 September 2007 (UTC))

I know Kelly personally, went to school with her (same 2000 class) and still reside in Burleson, I dont think I have ever heard her called K-Clark. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.30.152.122 (talk) 23:58, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Better photo

I have replaced the photo with this one, taken by myself in 2005. I assume you prefer it to the older ones.

Kelly Clarkson performing her 'Hazel Eyes' concert tour - November 10, 2005 - Geelong, Victoria, Australia

Wongm 06:32, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I think it's brilliant and see no objection to it! (EMH88 21:14, 17 September 2007 (UTC))

unfortunatly, it can't be legally used on here without permission, even if you took it yourself, it's not a fair use image, it would require permission from artist, label, and management. Alankc 21:38, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Do you have a source for that? I've asked over at Wikipedia:Media_copyright_questions just to make sure, but have still to hear back. Wongm 07:08, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Alankc, do you care to explain why you replaced it with the old image, which *also* didn't have the subject's "permission". We pretty much never have the subject's permission. Fortunately, we don't need to get permission to publish a picture of a public person in public. We need the permission of the copyright holder (to release it under a free license), which we have. Also, please note, while Clarkson is an artist. Clarkson is not the artist behind the photo. If anyone is, the photographer is. --Rob 10:16, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Alan, you should probably find sources for your info and discuss big reverts like that before doing them (not 100% sure of what your doing) (EMH88 16:49, 18 September 2007 (UTC))

MD Tour

Should we add a few details on the tours coming up? I know theres a page dedicated, but it could be good to mention that she's touring the US (shows confirmed) starting very soon through to the end of the year and Australia in March (a handful of dates confirmed) and 2 secret showcase concerts in Melbourne and Sydney confirmed for less than a weeks time when she goes over to promote OM and MD in general. I can find sources for all the info. If not I can add it to the tour page (EMH88 22:12, 20 September 2007 (UTC))

Simon Cowell Actually Likes Her!

When asked who he thought was the best to come off of American Idol,he quickly answered Kelly Clarkson, by a mile. I agree. Notice my user name. What is her vocal range I've tried to find out but came up empty handed.--Kelly clarkson rules! 00:04, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Kelly Says it's personal

Recently on Oprah, Kelly said music has always been personal for her, so I think Fox News site is wrong. It was so recent it was filmed after that article was posted.--Kelly clarkson rules! 00:10, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Deserves NPOV tag

This article should have an NPOV tag until it includes a "Controversy" section that mentions how Kelly humiliated herself by talking back to Clive Davis before My December bombed. Ogeez (talk) 02:42, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

It is mentioned in the My December article. joshschr (talk) 13:58, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Praise

Kelly Clarkson is just one of those singers who just gives it her all when she sings with her vocal range, she really gets into it. But sometimes you want her to throttle it back so she is not actually yelling the song which she can really do well. I do like female singers and she is up there on my list as far as talent goes. The only thing she did wrong was Justin to Kelly which flopped at the Box Office. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.82.9.105 (talk) 04:21, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Incorrect school listing for Kelly

Kelly Clarkson did not attend "Burleson Middle School" as listed in the Wiki. There is no such school in Burleson TX. The only middle school in Burleson at the time Kelly attended school was Pauline G Hughes Middle School. This information can be verified by going to the Burleson ISD website. The only middle schools in Burleson are Hughes and Kerr, and Kerr has only been around a few years; in fact, Kerr Middle School is located in the old Burleson High School building. I can also verify this information as I am an alumni of both Hughes Middle School and Burleson High School. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.14.230.221 (talk) 05:30, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

I went to school with Kelly, and when Hughes Middle School was the only middle school in town, we called it "Burleson Middle School". I never called it Hughes. Anyway, your right on the whole Kerr and Hughes now, but to say she went to "Burleson Middle School" would be appropriate, since it was the only one at the time. Many of us that graduated before Burleson had 2 middle schools still call Kerr the "Old High School" and Hughes the "Middle School". (T.Crowson)