Talk:List of Critical Role episodes

Why does this List article exist separately from the Critical Role article?

After discussion on Talk:Critical Role about the length of plot summaries (100+ episodes for each campaign), consensus was to spin out a list article for episodes due to WP:SPINOFF & MOS:TVSPLIT. Sariel Xilo (talk) 02:05, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

One-Shots List & Question

The Critical Role Wikia (which is fairly accurate in terms of listing the one-shots, I cross-checked), has a list of their specials. While it also includes Q&A episodes, it also includes episodes not posted to Geek and Sundry or the Critical Role official channel. Link is here. And how are we sorting the specials? Original air/stream date?

Secondly, for Original Air Date, as are we going by date originally live-streamed on Twitch? QueerFilmNerd^talk 02:10, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

• I think we should go by Twitch broadcast date to keep it standard with the format of the campaigns. I also think we should have 2 tables - one for cannon one-shots and one for everything else. In the everything else table, we should replace the cannon column with a game system column because they do one-shots in non-D&D rpgs. Sariel Xilo (talk) 02:15, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

Sure, I definitely don't feel like we should boggle down the page with too many tables, but we could see if it works! If not, I definitely think including it in the notes of the description still works. QueerFilmNerd^talk 02:18, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

I took a stab at the moving the canon one-shots out but there's a formatting issue. I'm assuming I introduced an error when I deleted a column but I'm not sure how to fix it. I haven't removed the canon one-shots from the original table. Thanks! Sariel Xilo (talk) 02:48, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

I'll give it a stab! I'll move the table into another page that I have and see if I can fix it! QueerFilmNerd^talk 02:57, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

I also agree with using original the livestream date. The dates I'd put in were lifted from the criticalrole.fandom wiki.

Separate tables for canon and non-canon one-shots makes sense if different information needs capturing.

If the synopses do end up making the page too big, or if we end up with too many tables, we can always split further into List of ''Critical Role'' campaign one episodes, List of ''Critical Role'' campaign two episodes, and List of ''Critical Role'' one-shot episodes. Little pob (talk) 15:02, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

Length

This draft article is now 100kb of text, even though only Campaign 2 has summaries for the most part. 100kb is the recommended point where articles should be split. It may be wise to ultimately put this up in three parts, with an article for Campaign 1, Campaign 2, and one-shots. --ERAGON (talk) 20:18, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

That might be the right direction. Neither MOS:LONGSEQ & WP:SPLITLIST really spell that out but MOS:TVOVERVIEW "Multiple pages" states For very lengthy series, generally 80+ episodes, it may be necessary to break the episode list into individual season or story arc lists. These lists are often the first stepping stone for season articles, but generally lack the amount of real world information (e.g. production, themes, etc.) that a season article has. [...] If this is done, the main list of episodes should still contain the entire episode list, appropriately sectioned, without the episode summaries. [...] These separate lists should include a full lead, as noted above, and follow the same guidelines laid out here as they will be evaluated as stand alone articles. So we would be looking to create something more like List of Avatar: The Last Airbender episodes & Avatar: The Last Airbender (season 1). Sariel Xilo (talk) 22:00, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

Makes sense to me. So by my reckoning we are looking at four articles:

• List of Critical Role Episodes
• Critical Role Campaign 1
• Critical Role Campaign 2
• Critical Role one shots

--ERAGON (talk) 22:07, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

We might be able to include the one shots in the main series article (ie. List of Critical Role episodes) since that's not as detailed as the plot summaries for campaigns 1 & 2. I'm also not entirely sure on article tile format - should it be Critical Role (Campaign 1) vs List of Critical Role Campaign One episodes? Pinging User:QueerFilmNerd & User:Little pob because spitting this into multiple articles was previously brought up by Little pob back in February above. Sariel Xilo (talk) 22:44, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

I would also point out that there are "List of [Show name] episodes" articles where they've never been split into season articles even when the article is quite long & the show has more than 80 episodes. For example, List of Blindspot episodes is over 200kb and hasn't been split into individual season articles. Sariel Xilo (talk) 22:57, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

This is true, though the Blindspot article probably should be split. In any case, once all the summaries are in I think we will be quite a bit over that length, perhaps approaching 300kb. --ERAGON (talk) 10:12, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the ping. I like the suggestions, but we need to use lower case after the first word (unless it's a proper noun):

• List of Critical Role episodes
• Critical Role campaign one (does MOS:SPELL09 apply to WP:AT?)
• Critical Role campaign two
• Critical Role one-shots (but initially have as a redirect to List of Critical Role episodes#One-shots)
• List of Critical Role: The Legend of Vox Machina episodes (eventually)

At over 200 episodes of the live show, so far, and given the potential for many more, we might want to think about just having episode number, episode title and air date on the "list of..." page.

Either way, once the pages are in article space we should draw up a Critical Role (disambiguation) page too. Little pob (talk) 18:55, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

Little pob's suggestion works for me. Good catch on the capital letters, I always get those wrong for titles. --ERAGON (talk) 09:22, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

I've created the disambiguation and populated it with the main series, LLC, and comic books: Critical Role (disambiguation) Little pob (talk) 12:24, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

Partial launch for Campaign 2 page

At this point Campaign 2 is done in the draft, albeit for the most recent couple of episodes. Seeing as we are splitting these off into individual articles anyway, it may be time to create the "Critical Role campaign two" page. --ERAGON (talk) 23:42, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

Sounds good to me! Thanks again for getting most of that done. Sariel Xilo (talk) 00:09, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

No worries. The article for Critical Role campaign two has now been launched! --ERAGON (talk) 21:50, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

Quick question ERAGON - should the article title be Critical Role (campaign two) vs Critical Role campaign two? Mostly asking because the TV shows articles I looked at had the format: show name (season x) (ex: Steven Universe (season 1), The Legend of Korra (season 2), etc). I just want to make sure I have the format down before I make a draft article for Critical Role campaign one (with or without the parentheses). After we move the still in development stuff for campaign one out of this article, I think this list article should be nearly good to go. Sariel Xilo (talk) 16:49, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

That's a good question, I was so focused on how we were capitalising it that I didn't consider brackets. I don't feel strongly either way- seasons you are right generally are in brackets but there isn't an exact comparison for D&D campaigns. I don't mind which way we do it. --ERAGON (talk) 19:43, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

I'm partial to the brackets just so it seems more uniform with other shows (even though the web series campaigns don't map exactly to seasons in the traditional sense). Sariel Xilo (talk) 20:04, 9 November 2020 (UTC) The brackets make the title in the "Infobox television season" look nicer. Sariel Xilo (talk) 21:03, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

I went ahead and updated the title so the link is now: Critical Role (campaign two). Sariel Xilo (talk) 23:58, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

I've created Draft:Critical Role (campaign one); I think that leaves this List article almost done. It needs categories and probably a copy-edit to check for typos, etc. Anything else? Sariel Xilo (talk) 21:03, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

Draft:Critical Role (campaign one) is also basically done except for episode plot summaries, categories and a copy-edit. Thoughts on moving it out of drafts before the plot summaries are done? Sariel Xilo (talk) 23:58, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

Great. I can write the summaries for the Kraghammer arc, but I haven't watched the rest of campaign one so someone else will need to handle the remainder. I do also wonder if the Vox Machina one-shots could be included in the campaign one article- certainly the post game ones like The Search for Grog, perhaps in a distinct table at the bottom.--ERAGON (talk) 09:54, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

Oh and regarding moving it out of drafts, I think once we at least have Kraghammer summaries in place it can be moved up to a full article. --ERAGON (talk) 12:33, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

@ERAGON: The Kraghammer bit makes sense. I haven't watched everything in either campaign so I've mostly relied on the summaries posted online. In terms of one-shots, the CR page (under "Post-campaign") has a good explanation and I think that fits better there. On the campaign one page, I did add a link to the one-shots table in the notes for ep. 115 since it references the two Search one-shots. Sariel Xilo (talk) 21:36, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

Has anyone added copyrighted images to Wikipedia before? Looking at MOS:TVIMAGE, we should be able to use screenshots of the show's title pages for the various campaign articles. Sariel Xilo (talk) 21:36, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

I think these campaign posters would be better than screenshots: https://critrole.com/the-art-of-exandria-the-search-for-grog-merch/. Sariel Xilo (talk) 21:56, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

Update: I gave it a shot with the M9 poster. Link: File:Critical_Role_Mighty_Nein,_2019_campaign_poster.png Sariel Xilo (talk) 22:23, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

The Mighty Nein poster looks good.--ERAGON (talk) 00:20, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

List of canon vs non-canon

I dunno how stuff like Honey Heist got on the canon list but it should be updated with the canon timeline from here Smokizzy (talk)

IMO the canon list should be all of the one-shots set within Exandria – regardless of any impact on the main story. Currently, it only lists those both set in the world and containing at least one canonical character. Even if my vague recollection of Marisha confirming with Matt that the first Honey Heist was in canon proves false; it's set in Westrunn and Matt is playing Trinket.

I'm wondering if we should split the canon list in two? One list containing those on the official timeline, which impact the canonical history, i.e. Grog, Bob, Dalen's, and Darrington Brigade. The other listing those taking place in the wider Exandria'verse – such as the Battle Royales (which I think were hand-waved as dreams at the time), the Honey Heists, and The Song of the Lorelei. Thoughts? Little pob (talk) 12:57, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

I took a WP:BOLD shot at addressing this. Feel free to revert/edit/discuss as needed! Lowercaserho (talk) 23:06, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for that. I'm not sure if MOS:LISTINTRO applies or not; but as we're using the tables to list info I've added intros to each table. As such, I slightly reworded the section lead too. Little pob (talk) 12:50, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

This is probably splitting hairs but is it necessarily true that all of the shared world type of one shots took place on Exandria? I haven't watched all of them but I know that the battle royales, for instance, were set on battlefields that didn't seem to be connected to any campaign setting. There was nothing that would make me think "yep, that's Exandria" except for the presence of the characters. That's why, in my version, I was careful with the wording to state that it was either the characters or the world that were shared. Am I being too pedantic here? Lowercaserho (talk) 13:34, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

When one of the battle royales was announced, likely the first one, Matt postulated that it would be some sort of shared dream experience for the characters. However I don't recall if that was ever confirmed within the battle royale episodes, or the experience even acknowledged by the characters after the fact. It's an arguable point whether, within a work of fiction, a dream of an alternative place occurs in the original world or not.

So that people know where I'm coming from; I'm trying to avoid the situation where an argument could be made that, just because Laura plays an early version of Jester, the GameSpot and Kinda Funny one-shots should be included in the shared world list. I'm struggling to come up with a wording that does that, which doesn't end up excluding some of the other one-shots. Little pob (talk) 18:16, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

Here is how the Fandom CR wiki split the specials (they say specials because they include the pre-stream summary of Vox Machina in the list). Little pob (talk) 18:17, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

Thinking about this further, I'm wondering if we may have strayed into original research territory. My original thought was that we were only referring to very basic plot points that could easily be primarily sourced to the one-shots themselves, but I'm not sure that's actually the case. If we're having to think about exactly what wording we should be using so that we can include exactly the episodes that we want to include then maybe that's a sign that we've overstepped the boundary. I had a quick look around to see of there were any reliable sources for this and wasn't able to find any. The sources we have in place already are largely silent on the subject and the official site[1][2] doesn't help any. The only source I was able to find was this one from The Geekly Grind' which a. I don't believe would meet our standards for a reliable source and b. isn't comprehensive since it has several missing one-shots.

At this point, I'm actually proposing that we go back to the two way split into canon and non-canon, but with only the four one-shots to appear on the timeline as canon. That is something that we actually can source, whereas I don't think the rest is. Any thoughts? Lowercaserho (talk) 23:00, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

I don't think we're in violation of WP:OR, yet; but now there is an official timeline that can be pointed to, we've probably moved from being able to apply WP:FACTS to having to apply WP:PLOTSOURCE. And I don't think any of us is wanting to trawl through hundreds of hours of C1 and Talks content for a single yay/nay on what was and wasn't confirmed as canon by Matt! Even then canon can, and does, change - see Star Wars Legends. Before I drop the WP:STICK, as a last ditch at saving a three-part list; perhaps we could move the "shared world" list under a non-canon subheading? Rather than try to explain what I mean, I've sandboxed a mockup: User:Little_pob/scratchpad (any headings are purely placeholders) Little pob (talk) 12:29, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

There is the handy transcript search tool but it turns out that most of the time they mention "canon" on the show, it's when they make jokes about things that are almost certainly not actually canon. And it also doesn't cover Talks Machina. I do see two mentions of the word "canon" in connection with the one-shots, though: [3][4]. I don't really think we can read much into them, but if we do decide to stick with the three-part list, we need to move The Return of Liam to the "shared world" list. Maybe if we do want to keep the three-way split, we should approach it in as broad and inclusive a sense as possible. If we say something like "featured setting, characters or other elements from the main series" and just accept that that means that we include the one with the proto-Jester then that might work? I'm honestly not sure. Lowercaserho (talk) 13:39, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

Useful tool, but I feel like it's beginning to come across that I'm trying to take WP:OWNERSHIP on this point. So I'll bow out of this discourse with one last alternative suggestion: Perhaps the non-canon list could simply be split into promotional and non-promotional? Little pob (talk) 14:22, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I have never felt as if you were trying to take ownership on this at all. My own position here can best be summarised as "I genuinely don't know how to best present this information", so I appreciated having another's person's insights and opinions. That said, I'll probably take another shot at reworking this later today (provided I have time) and we'll go from there. Lowercaserho (talk) 03:57, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

The three buckets we have right now seem to make the most sense. It feels more like determining plot than OR. In a battle royale one-shot, you can watch the primary source & determine what characters are in it; it's not analysis to determine that these characters are from Exandria or to put the episode they appear in under the "Shared world or characters" category. I also think the draft that Little pob mocked up could work as well since we now have an official canon timeline. Except, I would suggest keeping the "Shared world or characters" heading even if that's under non-canon. Sariel Xilo (talk) 05:13, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

Thinking about this some more, how would people feel about a wording along the lines of "...set on Exandria or featuring established canon characters"? Would that be enough to address both concerns of "are the battle royales actually on Exandria?" and "how do we make sure to not include the proto-Jester?" while also being neutral enough to not need secondary sources? Lowercaserho (talk) 13:44, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

@Lowercaserho:, thanks. I was probably overthinking. The step back was useful though... because, whilst I have added the Critical Role x Kinda Funny one-shot, the thought occurred to me that these two proto-Jester one-shots are not on Critical Role's own Twitch and YouTube channels. Should we actually be listing them on this article? (The source might be useful in the Campaign 2 article if it's not already mentioned.) Little pob (talk) 12:01, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and made yet another change to the wording here based on what I suggested, since nobody had objected to it. Hopefully this is something that everyone can at least live with? As for the Gamespot and Kinda Funny episodes, I don't really have a strong opinion on whether they belong or not but I will note that this official one-shot list includes the Gamespot one but not the Kinda Funny one. I don't know if we should be following the primary source here or not, mind. (And for the record, that page I linked includes only the older one-shots; newer ones are on a different page.) I agree that the proto-Jester information is probably something that we should have in the article for Campaign 2, though I'm not sure where. Maybe it could fit into the production section? Lowercaserho (talk) 16:28, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

Primary sources are fine for facts (ex. we can cite a publisher's page for the ISBN & release date); it gets murky if a primary source has a history of lying but that's not a concern here. The CR cast have participated in a bunch of streams that don't get added to their one-shot list (like any of the WoTC annual D&D events). There are also the one-shots that are streamed on non-CR channels & then added to CR's YouTube vod (ex. the Diablo One-Shot). Since CR lists the Gamestop one-shot & not the Kinda Funny one, let's keep the Gamestop one and make a note in that episode's description that this proto-Jester is used by Bailey in a non-CR one-shot. Something like: Note: Bailey also used this prototype version of Jester in an episode on the Kinda Funny Channel. Thoughts? Sariel Xilo (talk) 17:09, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

2 side comments: 1) we need to make sure to update the total number of one-shots in 2 tables (in this article & in the CR article). 2) CR (and the fandom wiki) have scrubbed the Wendy's one-shot so that's not on their official list. However, I think it is important to include that episode in the one-shot list; while the episode was pulled, it did occur on their channel and the event was covered in the media so is an example of the secondary source superseding the primary source. Sariel Xilo (talk) 17:12, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

Why is the Gamestop one-shot the only off-channel one-shot on the official lists though. Was it the first?

I agree it's entirely appropriate for WP to include the Wendy's one-shot given the coverage – even if it was a flash in the pan. There's a lot fewer sources coming up for the Wendy's one shot than there used to be on a Google News Search – I'll grab archived versions of the current sources from WBM and add them to the article (just in case)). Fandom may have also been part of the Feast of Legends partnership.[5] Even if that is misreported; as Fandom are the parent company D&D beyond, we can't view them as an impartial source for CR information anyway. Little pob (talk) 12:47, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

I don't think it's really relevant to us why they do or don't include specific videos. We should just be following the sources. In this case, we have a source (the official list) that says that the Gamestop video was a Critical Role one-shot; and we have multiple sources saying that the Wendy's video was a Critical Role one-shot, so we should be listing them as such. We don't (that I'm aware of) have any sources say that the Kinda Funny video is a Critical Role one-shot, so I don't think we should be including it on our list. Lowercaserho (talk) 13:08, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Why is the Gamestop one-shot the only off-channel one-shot on the official lists though. Was it the first? Apologies! Despite the question mark; I'd intended that to be rhetorical, and should have stated as such. It's 1) unknowable, and possibly even contractual; and 2) irrelevant for the purposes of its inclusion on WP (as you rightly stated).

The source used for the Gamestop and Kinda Funny one-shots states "... the other a Critical Role/Kinda Funny crossover game on The GameOverGreggy Show"".[6] On the strength of that, I'm not going to self revert; but I'm not going to object to another editor removing it's inclusion. Little pob (talk) 13:44, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

I went ahead and removed it. I think that on the balance of things, we're probably better off not including it. I also added a note about Jester's out-of-universe origins to the page for the second campaign, so we do still have some record of it remaining somewhere. Lowercaserho (talk) 16:02, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

I have moved Bar Room Blitz from Unrelated to Shared World or Characters as Jorenn Village is mentioned both in canon episodes and the Tal'Dorei Campaign Setting book. Another thing that might be relevant to add are D&Diesel and two of the CelebriD&D one-shots, namely the ones involving John Bradley and Joe Manganiello, as all three of these both involve Vox Machina characters as well as being set within the world of Exandria. The events of the one with Manganiello also are referenced within campaign 1 itself as Percy and Keyleth mention having previously met Arkhan during his appearance in the campaign proper which might make it canon? BobRayne7 (talk) 20:04, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

EXU unaired episodes

As sources state that EXU has an 8 episode run, I've WP:boldly pre-listed the unaired episodes without title. I'm aware of WP:CRYSTALBALL (and WP:TPHL); but there is precedent for WP:TV articles to list unaired yet announced episodes of shows. A current example is the now airing Rick and Morty (season 5). Little pob (talk) 12:04, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

I think this is premature. Although it's been confirmed that there are scheduled to be eight episodes, we don't know anything else about them yet. In the Rick and Morty example, there are (appropriately sourced) episode titles available, so listing them in advance is providing additional useful information. We don't have anything like that here. In fact, we shouldn't really even have the air dates. Unless there are any sources that I'm not aware of that list all the air dates, then they're only speculation on our part. I'd agree that they're the most likely dates but we don't trade in supposition and speculation about what's most likely. And without episode titles and without broadcast dates, literally the only thing that we can say with confidence is that there are going to be eight episodes. That's already mentioned in the prose so there's no reason for us to repeat it in the table. Lowercaserho (talk) 21:17, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Except the ign source gives the start date and literally states Exandria Unlimited's eight episodes will air weekly on Thursdays[7]. IMO adding those dates in advance is not WP:SYNTH; it's WP:CALC. Little pob (talk) 20:19, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

Even with the dates, I still don't think that it's worth including this. It's still not as much information as is in the Ricky and Morty example you gave as precedent. That said, I don't think this is really worth arguing about, given that the problem is going to resolve itself in about a month. If you want to re-add it, I won't revert again. Lowercaserho (talk) 05:48, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Restored. Will not be restoring if removed a second time (per WP:3RR); but may seek a third opinion. Little pob (talk) 11:51, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

Organising the unrelated one-shots

At the moment we have a catch-all box for all the one-shots that are not set in Exandria. This could be divided in two perhaps, with a section for promotional one shots (Doom Eternal, Diablo and many others) and a smaller "other" section under that. Any thoughts? --ERAGON (talk) 14:40, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

No responses to the above, so I've gone ahead and divided the table.--ERAGON (talk) 18:32, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

Thanks. By year would have been an alternative, and would have mirrored the campaign articles. I'm not suggesting we implement that system here and now; but, it's something to consider, if we end up with a long list of one-shots again and need to re-organise them in the future. Little pob (talk) 12:55, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

I like the organization by year suggestion. We might also want to consider what improvements this article needs to become a featured list. Thoughts? Sariel Xilo (talk) 18:13, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

Candela Obscura

With Candela Obscura starting next week I've added but hidden it as a new table row. As the article scope is Critical Role episodes; please remove/revert if the show doesn't air with CR branding. (Example branding; "CR presents..." on the title card.) Little pob (talk) 12:35, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

I don't think Candela Obscura is within the scope as it is a new show in a non-Exandria setting (set in "The Fairelands"). I think it is akin to UnDeadwood or Midst - produced by Critical Role Productions but acts as a standalone show separate from Critical Role. Unlike ExU, which was billed as a Critical Role spinoff (then ExU characters went on to C3). It might have "CR branding" but the show and the production company use the same logo. Sariel Xilo (talk) 16:42, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

new show in a non-Exandria setting press releases also mention "brand new world", so have self reverted. I do want to note that Midst is a not an RPG, and UnDeadwood aired on a Friday with no CR branding; but 2019 was a different time. There will probably be a point that we have to decide what we count as an "episode" of CR outside of the main campaign and anthology series – that time is not now. Little pob (talk) 14:05, 21 May 2023 (UTC)