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Archive 1Archive 2

AFTER FOREVER, EVANESCENCE AND NIGHTWISH AREN'T GOTHIC METAL

Stop adding these bands they have nothing to do with Gothic Metal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.234.239.143 (talk) 13:17, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Your personal opinion counts for nothing here on wikipedia. The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. As long as reliable sources identify those bands as gothic metal, they will remain on this list. If you have a problem with that, please take the matter up with those sources. I suggest you start right at the top and write a letter of complain to the editor of The New York Times. --Bardin (talk) 13:38, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Maybe there is some that say they are gothic but if there is some that say they aren't you shouldn't list them here. At least make a part like "Related acts", "Bands marked by debate", "Controversial acts" etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.234.239.143 (talk) 13:46, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Unfortunately, there are little to no reliable sources that actually say those bands are not gothic metal. What little I managed to find, I have already included in the notes column for the bands in question. I also did create a separate section nearly one year ago in the hope that it would satisfy everyone. Needless to say, it did not. After further thought, I decided to abandon the separate sections as I felt they were giving undue weight to one point of view. Instead, I added the explanatory notes that you can now find in the article. Even if you can find more reliable sources that say those bands are not gothic metal, they will still have to remain on the list because we simply cannot discount or ignore such sources as the New York Times or the Rolling Stones magazine. --Bardin (talk) 14:15, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
Maybe there needs to be another page created for bands like this. (We) Goths don't want them on the List of Gothic rock bands page either. Perhaps a pseudo/wannabe-Goth-teen-pop page should be created?Very Old School Goth (talk) 18:24, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
An article like that would be very unencyclopedic and we don't need more separation here. We can't make everyone happy. And by the way, I didn't see any gothic metal bands on the gothic rock list (only 'Nephilim'). FireCrystal (talk) 02:07, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
Why would you see gothic metal bands on the gothic rock list? I also don't see Winger on the list of hip hop bands page. What's your point?76.181.250.10 (talk) 18:36, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
My point is the above user's second sentence. Also, if you haven't noticed there are a few gothic metal acts that turned to gothic rock. FireCrystal (talk) 18:44, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
Yeah well people get pissed off that they can't add them here and then try adding them on the gothic rock page and get denied there too. Maybe they were right. Maybe there should be a page for bands like that. Seems that neither gothic rock nor gothic metal fans want those bands associated with them. 76.181.250.10 (talk) 23:45, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Stream Of Passion is not Gothic Metal

http://www.lordsofmetal.nl/showreview.php?id=6252&lang=en http://www.lordsofmetal.nl/showreview.php?id=8201&lang=en http://www.rockdetector.com/artist/holland/stream+of+passion http://www.metalstorm.ee/bands/band.php?band_id=687&bandname=Stream%2BOf%2BPassion http://www.rockeyez.com/reviews/cd/stream/rev-embracethestorm.html http://www.musicstreetjournal.com/cdreviews_display.cfm?id=102029 http://www.blistering.com/fastpage/fpengine.php/link/1/templateid/10425/tempidx/4/menuid/2 http://progressiveworld.net/streamofpassion.html http://www.rockislife.com/reviews/embracethestorm.htm

You know one site does not a source make. That's also true when said source is more a tabloed. 8 sites to one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.224.211.86 (talk) 20:46, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Their lead singer identifies the band as gothic metal here. So does their record label here. The official biography on their website mentions their "gothic vocals" here. And critics like this guy identifies them as gothic metal. So you want to send an email to their lead singer or their record label and tell them they are wrong? --Bardin (talk) 07:20, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
Bardin, I'm a bit puzzled here. I know your position. I'm not particularly contesting it here as I have no opinion concerning this band because I don't know it. Your sources seem to be ok to me (regardless I agree or not). But I'm surprised you use the opinion of a band member as a source, when you used the famous "Lemmy's argument" to discredit or at least to minimize the claims of other bands concerning what they think their music style is. (Even though I know you include such opinions anyway. For example Tuomas opinion concerning Nightwish)
Ok, don't misunderstand me, I'm not insinuating anything here. I insist, I'm not contesting your position here. No need to argue about this. Neither am I implying any attack. (I need to specify it, because my english is crappy and I'm not sure to word my comments properly, plus you seem to be a bit touchy concerning this particular subject.)I just want to know why in this particular case, the opinion of the singer is considered as reliable, when in other cases you generally seem to consider bands members opinions concerning their styles as not reliable because of the "Lemmy syndrome". Thanks in advance. (btw, I guess I don't need to explain what I mean by "Lemmy's syndrome" as this is the most frequently used argument in wikipedia concerning issues of styles.) Fred D.Hunter (talk) 08:32, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
Actually, the main reason why I quoted the singer there is to simply convince the person I was responding to. That said, there is a difference between denying, as Lemmy or Tuomas does, and asserting, as this Stream of Passion singer does. Like yourself, I do not know the band and have never heard their music before. It just seems to me that if the singer wants to describe her band as gothic metal, and other sources agree, then who are we to say otherwise? As far as I know, there are no sources out there denying that Stream of Passion are gothic metal, only sources that label them with a different tag, the same way that Opeth gets tagged as both progressive metal and death metal. With Nightwish, Epica, After Forever, Evanescence, HIM, etc. there are sources that assert these bands are gothic metal and any denial from band members are made in response to such assertions. Like Motorhead or AC/DC with heavy metal. But to come forth and say that you are a gothic metal band, that's not a denial but an assertion, one made freely and not in response to any contrary assertion. In any case, as you noted, I already include denials in the article so why not assertions? --Bardin (talk) 11:59, 12 March 2009 (UTC)


In other words what you are saying is you're right and ever one else is wrong. Sorry about you have gone on record as saying it does not matter what the band member or record lable says. You can't keep rewriting how this is edited. You can't have it one way and not another. You have even said band web sites are not sorces. You have said all of that in more. So either say what you mean or mean what you say. In other words if band members, and record lables, and band web sites are not good sorces don't tell other people not to use them only for you to go in use them. You are using one set of rules for yourself and another set of rules for ever one else. This is not Bardin's wikipedia you don't own the site. Other people have pointed that out to you and called you on it. Either go by the same rules as ever one else or just don't edit at wikipedia any more.

I don't know what it is with you but you don't seem to like to work with any one or let any one else work on any page. You try to kill any and all debate on topics, etc, etc. That's not how this site works. It's for ever one to come together to work on it. Not just you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.224.211.86 (talk) 20:12, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

You're an editor that has been indefinitely blocked from editing on wikipedia so you're not exactly the best person to tell anyone how wikipedia is supposed to work. I have been nothing short of consistent in my stance here. Since when have I ever excluded the opinions of band members expressed through interviews? On this list, I provided links to interviews with band members from Nightwish and After Forever stating that they are not gothic metal. So why are you making it seem as if I am being inconsistent here? Point me to any reliable source that explicitly states a band on the list is not gothic metal and I'll mention it on the list as I've repeatedly done again and again. All that you've keep coming up with are sources that simply label a band differently: that's not the same thing as denying a band is gothic metal. --Bardin (talk) 20:27, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

It is to the same thing. You're using the double standered again. It can't be both ways. If there is a set of rule to be that ever one has to go by then they can't keep changing ever time you can't tell one person not to use interviews and then use them your self. You can't say a bands web site is not a good source and then use the website. It's either no one can or ever one can. I have read agruments you have had here with many different people who have pointed this out to you. It would be helpful if you took what they said and perhaps appel it and hear what other people are saying. You are not even willing to hear any one else out. It would really help ever one if would start working with ever one and not against them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.224.211.86 (talk) 21:14, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Hey, enough with the slander, okay? You are an editor that has been blocked indefinitely from wikipedia. All I did above was direct your attention to various sources that identify the band as gothic metal. I never said anything about whether those sources are reliable or not. All I was trying to do was to try convince you that the band is gothic metal. In good faith, I decided to wait for your response before adding the band back into the article. As a matter of fact, I still have not added the band back into the article. So despite all your accusations of double standards and inconsistency, I have not in fact used any of those sources in any article. I'm quite willing to use the interview though and the Chad Bowar review. Your memory of events might be skewed but I have never said that interviews with band members are not a reliable source. I have repeatedly cited interviews with band members in the various articles I've worked on, including this one. There is no double standard and there is no inconsistency here. --Bardin (talk) 10:36, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Source supporting the claim that Nightwish is not gothic

Here's a source that could be included, this is a video where Tuomas is explictely claiming that Nightwish is not a gothic metal band.

Interview

I think I already mentioned this one before, but I didn't have the references by the time, so I couldn't use it. Now I got the references.

This video is a small excerpt from an interview to the brazilian program "Almanaque" of "Globo News". It was on air on 12-23-2004. Nightwish was on tour in Brazil at that time. The full interview can be seen this link:

Full interview

I think it could be added to the sources now. Of course, I'm not asking to remove other sources claiming they are gothic.I just think this one could be included too, that's it. Just like the one Bardin already put before. Any comment or objection before I insert it? Fred D.Hunter (talk) 09:09, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

No problems from me and you don't have to ask anyone for permission. I suggest using Template:Cite video and filling in as much information about the program as you can so that the citation will still be valid even if the video footage gets taken down from either site. -Bardin (talk) 11:59, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
I'm not asking for permission, but for comments, and possibly any relevant objections. Anyway I've included it with the template you suggested.Fred D.Hunter (talk) 14:22, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

On sourcing

This article is horrifically sourced. I need to come back when I've got a minute and remove every single source that is a webzine. All the "Lords of Metal" ones for instance need to go immediately. I can see the list becoming somewhat smaller fairly soon. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 12:42, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

OK, it took me a year, but all the sources that fail WP:RS have been expunged. The Rockdetector sources used to be reliable (when the content was being published by Cherry Red); however the site is now user-edited, so only biographies solely written by Sharpe-Young can be used (username: Taniwha). Many are dead links however, so some better sources may be required. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 13:19, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Arch Enemy Gothic Metal?

When did this happen? From ever thing I know they play Melodic Death metal. So why are they on the list as Gothic Metal? --Epica124 (talk) 14:03, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

:lol: Arch Enemy a gothic band... this is grotesque indeed... But no wonder, in this article any band can be gothic metal... with the countless stylistic amalgams ratified here thanks to this article and its dubbious sources, gothic metal doesn't mean anything anymore... It has become a vague category where anything can be put in it, especially if it's a woman-fronted band, like gender was a stylistic parameter...:lol: I'm sure Britney Spears and Lady Gaga will be featured as key artist of the genre some day. Alpha Ursae Minoris (talk) 16:25, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
I took a look at the two sources; the Blabbermouth one doesn't even refer to Arch Enemy as gothic metal (as has been stated in an edit reason), while Wordpress is an unreliable source (or at least it seems to be). It strikes me as incredibly bizarre that anybody would think they're gothic metal, but w/e. --LordNecronus (talk) 18:18, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Montionless in White

a record labe is not a source. What reviews are there that say this band is gothic metal? --Epica124 (talk) 13:03, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Danzig should be included

Danzig (the band) were largely pioneers in this area of music and are largely accepted by many as a Gothic Metal band.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Danzig_%28band%29#Genre_2

108.223.14.211 (talk) 19:24, 12 February 2013 (UTC)James Lopez

I've added them to the list. The Morning Call looked good as a reference. De728631 (talk) 21:26, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

This is... unbelievable

Please accept my apologies for the word I am about to use but this article is nothing more but crap. You can't just label bands like Evanescence, Nightwish and Arch Enemy as gothic metal and then say that you promote 'verifiability' instead of 'truth'. Why should anyone even read the article if it contains false information? And you have done the same thing to Dark Metal by labelling bands like Slayer or Megadeth that way.

It is true that Wikipedia is useful if you want information about the history of a certain genre but it is not a reliable source if someone ever wants to find bands that really belong to that category.

Real goth metal bands are here : Gothic metal bands at Encyclopaedia Metallum : The Metal Archives. Lich Coldheart (talk) 6:27 PM, 23 December 2014. — Preceding undated comment added 16:30, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Please read about what constitutes a reliable source. Websites that are operated by random users like The Metal Archives are not reliable per our definition. Wikipedia mirrors what has been published by musical reviewers in magazines, newspapers and reliable online sources with an editorial staff. Sometimes this may not meet your personal definition of any kind of genre, but that's how encyclopedias work. De728631 (talk) 16:56, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

As I have already highlighted, you keep adding sourced false information instead of true information. May you be happy with it. Lich Coldheart (talk) 3:22 PM, 26 December 2014

Music Might source

There have been a few edits referring to the source of MusicMight here. According to their About Us page, "Want to add information to this database? Just register - it's simple! You can add as much or as little information as you'd like". Per WP:USERGENERATED, " This includes any website whose content is largely user-generated, including the Internet Movie Database (IMDB), CBDB.com, content farms, collaboratively created websites such as wikis, and so forth, with the exception of material on such sites that is labeled as originating from credentialed members of the sites' editorial staff, rather than users.". This site seems to follow this rule. I don't think it should be included as a source for this or any article. Thoughts? Andrzejbanas (talk) 18:27, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

Apparently MusicMight is no longer active. As you can see from their front page, releases from 2010 are still being announced as upcoming, and there is no online way to actually register a new account. According to our own article, MusicMight used to have "a small team of international writers" but I don't know about their reliability. I think it would be best to replace these sources with established, reliable references. De728631 (talk) 19:01, 30 April 2015 (UTC)
That said, I've also come across a few news items from Blabbermouth being used as references. Some of these are outright unreliable since they were obviously influenced by record companies and such, but according to the criteria WikiProject Albums, Blabbermouth newsfeeds should not be used anyway. De728631 (talk) 19:26, 30 April 2015 (UTC)
that's sort of limiting, but I guess we are go for removing Blabbermouth, Music Might. Disappointing, but what can we do? Andrzejbanas (talk) 02:11, 1 May 2015 (UTC)
As to Blabbermouth: any reviews from that site are fine, we're just not supposed to use their news texts for referencing. De728631 (talk) 13:54, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

I'm resurrecting this thread: Many of the MusicMight entries are by Garry Sharpe-Young (username Taniwha), who created the site and is a published author. Profiles attributed to him should be reliable. I thought the consensus with Blabbermouth was that it can be okay to cite news posts as long as they aren't used to make BLP statements.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 01:15, 5 June 2015 (UTC) @Blackmetalbaz: I got into the practice of citing Music Might because I saw that you have done so. Do you want to comment on this and lend some clarity to this discussion?--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 01:26, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

MusicMight articles authored by Taniwha (Garry Sharpe-Young) pass WP:RS as he is an established music journalist published by reliable, third-party sources (the site used to be called Rockdetector, and the content was published in print form by the independent Cherry Red). Articles edited by other users may not pass WP:RS. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 16:55, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
Thank you, Blackmetalbaz.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 17:18, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
@Blackmetalbaz:: Ok, so we only need to check MusicMight references that were not written by Sharpe-Young. As to Blabbermouth, the sources list states merely that we should not use news items, "and if another source can be found for information given, use that source instead." I don't know if there was consensus for keeping non-BLP news from Blabbermouth, but I wouldn't use those either to back up any claims of a specific genre. De728631 (talk) 18:38, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

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