Talk:Matthias Sention Sr.

Inaccuracies in English Origins

9 August 1601 is a baptism date, not a birth date, and the record names his father "Christopher Sangins." Information about his family in England, both in publications and on the internet, has been speculative. The guesses about his being descended from a St. John family, or even of them being of British origin, have been refuted. See "Origins of Mathias and Nicholas Sention Determined," by Jerome Lafayette Santkin, in NEHGR, 167:85 (2013). The scholarship is excellent, as expected from that journal. Matthias' father and grandfather immigrated to London from Antwerp. This is so extremely different from what is now in the article that it should be corrected. I won't make any article changes now, but I'm giving a "heads up" if anyone wants to comment on this. Dlaird1959 (talk) 13:51, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

I have started a new discussion thread where I am putting evidence for the Welsh origin and refuting the Dutch claim. Thepoetz (talk) 23:16, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

Evidence the family is Welsh not Dutch

The author of the Dutch Origin story/myth in NEHGS Register used his Y-DNA to make a Dutch origin claim and ignored the Y-DNA results of everyone else in the project. In 2020, he came out as an NPE and not a St. John. In 2014 he left the St. John DNA project as admin. See Debunked Claims: https://www.stjohngenealogy.com/browsemedia.php?mediatypeID=debunk

James Sension, brown baker of St. Nicholas Cole Abbey was a Citizen. If he was the son of a Non-English immigrant he would have been a Denizen not a Citizen. His son, James St. John, Jr. became a goldsmith and later Attorney General and Treasurer of England with the St. John Coat of Arms. If Christopher St. John was a Dutch immigrant, that would have been impossible. See https://www.londonroll.org/event/?company=gsm&event_id=GSDM5496 and the 1641 Poll Tax where James St. John of St. Nicholas Cole Abbey was a brown baker. See: Pedigrees with index of London citizens, abt. 1600-1800, Boyd, Percival, (Manuscript, filmed by the Genealogical Society of Utah, 1954), FHL microfilms 94515-94649., vol. 522 no. 52345, FHL microfilm 94635. His brother Mathias was Seyntion the Baker of Wethersfield, CT. Thepoetz (talk) 22:47, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

Sen Sion is Welsh for St. John Thepoetz (talk) 22:53, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

William Shakespeare was also listed as a Stranger in the same registers as Christopher St. John. The mayor ordered the Dutch church to create the index that year which is how they made their way into the Dutch records. The editors however, recognized William Shakespeare as English and removed him from the Dutch records with a footnote. We know William Shakespeare was born in England but outside of London. Christopher was born in Wales and thus a Stranger in London like William Shakespeare. As an aside both Christopher St. John and William Shakespeare lived on Silver Street. Thepoetz (talk) 22:58, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

Author of that Dutch claim knew he was an NPE since at least 2007: https://www.stjohngenealogy.com/showmedia.php?mediaID=7554&medialinkID=3043 Thepoetz (talk) 23:07, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

Dutch Myth Author's public tree at Ancestry showing his grandmother had an affair with Carroll Dorsey Narramore producing his Narramore NPE results as claimed in Lilly Copeland's 2020 book. https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/person/tree/78458554/person/38381408381/facts Thepoetz (talk) 23:25, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

Lilly Copeland's book https://www.amazon.com/Lost-Family-How-Testing-Upending/dp/1419743007 Thepoetz (talk) 02:10, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Will of Christopher St. John, Esq. of Highlight (1547-1616) naming his sons Sir William St. John, Oliver St. John and Thomas St. John and grandson, son of Thomas, Christopher St. John. https://stjohngenealogy.com/showmedia.php?mediaID=1436&medialinkID=865 Thepoetz (talk) 23:21, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

Sir William St. John, Knight signed the Virginia Charter. He was on the Council for the Jamestown colony and a member of the Virginia Company of London. His brother Master Thomas St. John was a member of the Virginia Company of Plymouth and a founder of the Popham Colony. He was taken captive on HMS The Richard off the coast of Florida and taken to Spain where he was beaten and starved until he bribed a guard for his freedom and returned to London a year later. Sir William St. John died in Jan 1638 and in March 1638 his son Mathew was granted land in Dorchester. Thomas died in 1625, his son Christopher died in 1629 and Mathias, son of Christopher came to Dorchester Colony 1629/30. They had hereditary land rights to come to the American colonies as citizens and landed gentry. Thepoetz (talk) 23:32, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

MS 5.6 Glamorgan Families Pedigree shows Christopher St. John the father of Sir William and Thomas (m. Jane Mathew) and circles for their children incomplete. https://stjohngenealogy.com/showmedia.php?mediaID=2925&medialinkID=1392 but from the Wills of Christopher St. John d. 1616 and Robert Mathew d. 1608 probated 1611, we know Thomas was the father of Christopher. Thepoetz (talk) 23:47, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

Christopher St. John, Esquire's son Captain Oliver St. John was a squire for King James of England & Scotland.

Frances St. John, daughter of Baronet Francis St. John of Longthorpe names Elizabeth St. John, daughter of James St. John, Jr. the goldsmith as her COUSIN in her will. James St. John the goldsmith was the son of James Sension, of St. Nicholas Cole Abbey and nephew and great-niece of Mathias St. John of Dorchester, MA and Norwalk, CT. Thepoetz (talk) 02:27, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, I had it backwards, Will of Elizabeth St. John, daughter of James St. John the goldsmith and granddaughter of James Sension of St. Nicholas Cole abbey about Frances St. John, of Longthrope, "... well beloved cousin and friend, Mrs. Frances St. John, daughter of Sir Francis St. John, Bart of Longthorpe ... "

The National Archives; Kew, England; Prerogative Court of Canterbury and Related Probate Jurisdictions: Will Registers; Class: PROB 11; Piece: 1107. Thepoetz (talk) 03:31, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Profile of Elizabeth St. John, daughter of James St. John, goldsmith. https://www.stjohngenealogy.com/getperson.php?personID=I11030&tree=OSA0001#cite1 Thepoetz (talk) 03:32, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

In another letter regarding a list of surviving nominees on survivorship, February 1733:[1]

“…Elizabeth St. John, daughter of James St. John, Esq. formerly an eminent goldsmith in Lombard-street, born Nov. 1681. This land (after having passed her latter days under the care of a very respectable and worth relation, Mrs. St. John, of Wimple-street, daughter to the late Sir Francis St. John, Bart. And sister to the lady of the late Sir John Bernard, Bart.) died at Edgeware-Row, Paddington, Aug. 25, 1783, and was buried in the church yard at St. Lawrence-Pountney, London: She was said upon her coffin plate to be in the 102d year of her age. There is a vault dug on purpose for her, and very strongly bricked, and probably her worthy relation Mrs. St. John will set up some monument…”

[1] The Gentleman's Magazine, and Historical Chronicle, Volume 53, Part 2 Thepoetz (talk) 03:37, 12 April 2023 (UTC)