Talk:Milford Haven/GA1
GA Review
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Reviewer: SilkTork *YES! 00:27, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
Initial review
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Initial comments[edit]I'll be reviewing this. I lived in Milford Haven many years ago, and I have fond memories of the place. I've cast my eye quickly over the article, and there appears to be plenty of material and cites, so this is very promising. Points that jumped out at me are that the lead looks rather short for an article of this length - take a look at WP:Lead; that the structure needs attention - look at WP:LAYOUT and WP:UKCITIES; that there are a lot of images - see Wikipedia:Layout#Images; that there are a lot of sections - some of which have only one sentence, and sub-sections that could be useful merged together; and that there is an inclination toward lists rather than prose - see WP:Embedded lists. These are all aspects which are covered in the GA criteria - Wikipedia:Good article criteria. I'll put up a list later. Any questions, please let me know. SilkTork *YES! 00:27, 12 January 2010 (UTC) Hit list[edit]GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria
Further comments[edit]I've just been doing some basic organising and tidying up. I'm OK doing it as we all share a common aim of improving this article (regardless of if it gets a GA status, the article will be improved by the process), however there has been a fair bit to do, and a lot of this basic stuff should be done before nominating an article for GA. I've just sorted out a series of petty spelling mistakes/typos - this is basic stuff that can be easily checked with online spell-checkers. I'm going to pause on doing the tidying up for the moment. There is enough work for people to get on with - expand the governance section, convert the list sections into prose, and find references for any sections or paragraphs or contentious statements that don't have inline citations. I'll do the hit-list in a moment. SilkTork *YES! 12:27, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
On hold[edit]Putting on hold for seven days to allow development:
History section[edit]
Wikipedia:WikiProject_Cities/Guideline#History has some guidance on this issue. I don't think that it's a clear and obvious case for a split, and in general I am in favour of keeping as much information on one topic in one place, however the history section is 20k of a 56k article - it is over a third of the content. And at 56K the article is already at a size where some browsers are having difficulty loading, and recommendation in Wikipedia:Article_size is leaning toward a split. A reader looking for a quick summary of the history of Milford Haven has to read nearly 3,000 words - which would take the average reader 15 - 20 minutes with only 60% comprehension, so further readings would need to take place. An overview of the history would be what most readers would want, with a link to a more detailed history for extra depth. As I say, this is not an obvious, obvious split, but I think it tips over the borderline into a sensible idea. If you'd like me to do it, let me know. SilkTork *YES! 12:24, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
List sections[edit]
The Notable people section is excellent! That's very good work. Religion is also very good - it puts religion into context within the community. I like that. There are, however, a lot of images - see Wikipedia:Layout#Images and WP:IG. Unless the article is going to discuss the architecture of the churches, then the images are mainly decorative, so a gallery is not appropriate. I'd suggest selecting one and removing the others. Education still needs doing. SilkTork *YES! 12:38, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
There's some excellent work being done on this article. SilkTork *YES! 12:19, 17 January 2010 (UTC) References[edit]
While much of the article is well researched with good referencing, there are still statements that need sourcing, such as the second half of Etymology, and "The Second World War altered the rhythm of the town considerably", "The only man-made structures on the future site of Milford were the medieval chapel, and Summer Hill Farm, and its accompanying cottages", and "Into the new millennium, its fortunes seem to have risen, as can be witnessed in the activity surrounding the impending LNG terminal, and all the new building works which accompany it and its connection to the controversial South Wales Gas Pipeline." This is not an exhaustive list, just examples. SilkTork *YES! 13:29, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
Observation. Having had to consider how and whether to respond to a spurious claim on lead citations (the claim itself being more reactionary than considered), I am pleased to see the underlying logic of WP:LEADCITE is not dissimilar to my own conclusions. One could probably come up with heuristics on this sort of thing. For example.
A flowchart could be derived from such a heuristic. One could expand the heuristic, but it's probably as brief as one could get it and still have it cover all bases. One could not exhaustively list all possibilities, so the "no other gain" statement or a variation of it (which unpacks to cover anything not thought of or foreseen - a version of the ubiquitous "other" category in heuristics and taxonomies etc). Wotnow (talk) 04:21, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
{{cite book | last1 = | first1 = | last2 = | first2 = | title = | publisher = | date = | location = | isbn = }}
Stack Rock Fort / Landmarks section[edit]I noticed that the Landmarks section is quite small, so I have browsed in Category:Milford Haven. I found Stack Rock Fort and Palmerston Forts, Milford Haven . There is a small mention of these in the Landmarks section, though I feel that could be developed a bit more, and something about them placed in the history section. SilkTork *YES! 13:37, 16 January 2010 (UTC) Governance[edit]
Very good! The last bits need a cite though. SilkTork *YES! 13:39, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
Images[edit]I'm not an expert on the copyright issues related to images, but I do check each one to see if there is a viable fair use tag on each one. I changed one tag to something more appropriate. I am uncertain about File:Milford Harbour.jpg, and File:Milford Haven 'Where Fish Comes From'.jpg. There's no source given for File:Milford aerial 2.jpg and File:Milford aerial 2.jpg. Those four need to either be removed, or to have sources and/or more convincing copyright tags. See Wikipedia:Image copyright tags. SilkTork *YES! 17:52, 16 January 2010 (UTC) I have updated copyright status, but am confused over your comments on File:Milford Haven 'Where Fish Comes From'.jpg. My original copyright description seemed OK - could use some clarification. Alvear24 (talk) 18:43, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
The majority yes, although some are borrowed from other liscenced Wiki users Alvear24 (talk) 12:58, 17 January 2010 (UTC) (talk) 03:30, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
Climate chart[edit]It's not really a GA requirement - however I notice that the climate chart intrudes in a messy manner on the layout of the article. I had a look, and I couldn't find any Good Articles which used the climate chart. If Good Articles had such a chart, they tended to use a weatherbox. As I say, not a GA requirement, but a comment on what the most respected articles appear to use. SilkTork *YES! 18:56, 16 January 2010 (UTC) Lead section[edit]
The scope of the lead section may need possible expansion relative to the length of the article and its contents. (WP:LEAD) --Kudpung (talk) 03:05, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
See also[edit]There are three articles in the See also section. Per WP:See also it might be appropriate to incorporate mention of these articles within the main body, and link to them when mentioned. What is the relationship between Milford Haven and Milford Haven (harbour)? Why are there two articles? (I'm not saying there shouldn't be - just wondering the rationale, as it is not clear at the moment.) SilkTork *YES! 12:46, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
Culture[edit]Fish Week and the carnival are the kind of local information found in a town guide. These inclusions might not strictly be of encyclopedic value.--Kudpung (talk) 19:54, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
Issue with Welsh language / Demographics[edit]What is the story here? There was an objection which wasn't upheld? Looks like a sentence at the most, and even then that is questionable. Any one able to explain why it has a section to itself? SilkTork *YES! 20:15, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
Economy[edit]When citing sources, it probably more prudent to report them accurately (s: numbers of employees, M & F.) rather than loosely interpreting the facts for a more prosaic style. Fishery was not 'by far' the largest employer in MH in 1921 - Tpt & Comm was a very close second. Anyone checking the facts in such sources (and people do) might lose confidence in the encyclopedia as reliable document. The corrections have been effected - revert if you wish.--Kudpung (talk) 07:33, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
Architecture[edit]As with the reporting of the employment statistics (see Economy above), the architecture section should preferably strive to report the facts as shown in the source material and try to avoid introducing peacock terms to embelish the prose. Etymology[edit]The BBC only gives half the explanation. It does not adequately explain Haven, which of course is none other than the German word for port; also related to the French havre. I would have thought it worth a mention. Plenty of references exist. Geography[edit]Added destination to compass with major destination in bold. This was one edit, revert if not wanted.--Kudpung (talk) 02:49, 21 January 2010 (UTC) Progress[edit]It may be an idea at this stage to go through all the embedded comments that are accumulating in the various sections above and add the
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Stage two
[edit]People have done very well so far, and I've been impressed by both the quality and the amount of work done. We are now looking at a different stage in the process. The name "Milford Haven" covers both the inlet and the town. There is an article on the inlet - Milford Haven (harbour), and an article - this one - which appears undecided if it is about the town or about both the town and the inlet. I think there are two ways to proceed:
- Merge Milford Haven (harbour) into a section in Milford Haven to be named "Inlet" or "Harbour" or "Waterway"
- Concentrate Milford Haven on the town, though have a section named "Inlet" or "Harbour" or "Waterway", in which a summary is given of the inlet, with a link to the Milford Haven (harbour) article.
Some reorganisation would need to be done depending on the decision, as it impacts on various aspects of both articles - the history section, for example, would need to be clarified as it carries both the history of the inlet and the history of the town, and the notable people section has at least one person who lived before the town existed.
It should also be decided as which term for the inlet is most common - a Google search indicates that "Milford Haven Waterway" has 150,000 hits, harbour has 89,600 and inlet only 874. As such I suggest that "Milford Haven Waterway" is used. See WP:COMMONNAME.
I will be guided by the advice of those who know more of the topic, though my inclination is to favour renaming Milford Haven (harbour) to Milford Haven Waterway, focusing Milford Haven on the town, and creating a section in Milford Haven on Milford Haven Waterway which links to that article. The history section could then be approached differently, giving a very brief mention of the history of the waterway before going into the history of the town itself. I would also advocate keeping the History of Milford Haven article, but again, modifying it to take into account the circumstances. The bulk of the Early history section would be moved into the Milford Haven (harbour) / Milford Haven Waterway article.
Review of the article is on hold until the decision is made, and will start again from scratch when the amendments have been done according to which decision is made. SilkTork *YES! 11:40, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
- I think that FruitMonkey pointed out, on the Milford Haven talk page, that there are separate articles on the town and the waterway in the Encyclopedia of Wales. This is the approach I favour. The waterway article should focus on physical geography, natural history and the wider maritime economy beyond the town of the same name.--Pondle (talk) 19:24, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
- I prefer Milford Haven Waterway, as that appears to be the more common usage. The question I feel is that as much of the history of the area was before the town was built (though the area of Milford existed before the town) where do we split the histroic events around the area. Or do we mention certain events in both, just to a minor extent in one? FruitMonkey (talk) 21:49, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
- It is common practise to give some history of the location of a settlement, so a brief general history on the area would be appropriate in Milford Haven, with a more detailed history in Milford Haven Waterway. The Waterway article to mention the town and to give a summary in a section Milford Haven Waterway#Milford Haven town, with a link to the Milford Haven article. I'll set that up for you to look at. SilkTork *YES! 00:23, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
Review 2
[edit]GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria
- Is it reasonably well written?
- A. Prose quality:
- B. MoS compliance:
- A. Prose quality:
- Is it factually accurate and verifiable?
- A. References to sources:
- B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:
- C. No original research:
- A. References to sources:
- Is it broad in its coverage?
- A. Major aspects:
- B. Focused:
- A. Major aspects:
- Is it neutral?
- Fair representation without bias:
- Fair representation without bias:
- Is it stable?
- No edit wars, etc:
- No edit wars, etc:
- Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?
- A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:
- B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:
- A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:
- Overall:
- Pass or Fail:
- Pass or Fail:
OK, we are drawing to a close - I feel that the structure, coverage and layout of the article are within GA criteria, and the images are all compliant.
I would ask that the nominator and interested editors to now go carefully through the article and ensure that any statements and sections that can be questioned are sourced. If a reliable source cannot be found, then please remove the statement. Examples of statements that a reader might question are "private housing estates became more popular", "predominately used English for many centuries" (links to sourced articles are not enough - the sources for contentious statements need to be in each article where the statement occurs), "Milford Haven is twinned as a twin-town with Romilly-sur-Seine, France and Uman, Ukraine", "Primary and pre school education in Milford Haven is served by six state infant and primary schools", "The earliest known religious building in the area was the Benedictine priory which was dissolved during Henry VIII's reign", "The current bridge is actually the third version", and "The marina is gradually acquiring a commercial presence." This is not an exhaustive list, but just some examples.
Also check the prose for clarity - examples of unclear writing are "Notable examples are Shakespeare Avenue and Starbuck Road" (Notable examples of what? And why are they notable? And where is the reliable source for the statement?); and "Up until the mid 1960s, tourism in the town had been played down" (what does the phrase "played down" mean? avoid casual language). Check that the prose flows in a readable manner. Avoid one sentence paragraphs if possible, and link short sentences together. The Sport and leisure section contains too many short sentences. Check punctuation. Single inverted commas (') should be changed to double (") - see WP:PUNCT.
Ensure that cites are placed after punctuation marks, and that unless the material is particularly contentious, it comes at the end of the sentence rather than in the middle. Plurals don't have a possessive apostrophe - so when writing about decades, it's 1960s, not 1960's, etc.
When that is done, read through the whole article and ensure that the lead is an accurate summary of the important information. The lead should be able to stand on its own - many readers will only look at the lead, and so it must give them a neat summary of the article.
I'll put this on hold for a week to allow the work to be done. If you have finished before then, please give me a ping. When I come back I'll check some of the reference sources to make sure that they are reliable, and that they do support what is said in the article. If all is OK, I'll pass as a Good Article. Good luck! SilkTork *YES! 00:54, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
- Just popped in to look at progress. It's looking good, though I've noticed there's an uncertainty about the neighbouring settlements. Could someone find out what the relationship is of Hakin, etc, to Milford Haven, and make a clear statement, supported by a ref. When it is decided if they are within Milford Haven or not, then the Geographic Location template can be adjusted. The intention of that template is to identify the adjoining communities. If Hakin is part of the Milford Haven community, then it is potentially confusing to list it as the next community. And showing far away communities like Swansea, Cardiff and London is not helpful. See Template:Geographic location/doc. SilkTork *YES! 11:15, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
- The local government community of Milford Haven includes the Hakin and Hubberston wards (see the Milford PDF here). However, I'm not sure of the boundaries of the Milford Haven urban area, the statistical entity defined by ONS. The map on the Key Stats for Urban Areas doc isn't very detailed[1]. I'll see if I can find something better on NOMIS.--Pondle (talk) 11:48, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
- Edit, found the map on NOMIS; annoyingly, I can't link to it directly. The urban area includes Hubberston and Steynton, but not Liddeston or Thornton.--Pondle (talk) 11:57, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
- The local government community of Milford Haven includes the Hakin and Hubberston wards (see the Milford PDF here). However, I'm not sure of the boundaries of the Milford Haven urban area, the statistical entity defined by ONS. The map on the Key Stats for Urban Areas doc isn't very detailed[1]. I'll see if I can find something better on NOMIS.--Pondle (talk) 11:48, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
- I'll take a look over the weekend to see what still needs to be done. The lead could be built up. A summary of the main history points, and some sense of the economy and the community which are described in the article would be useful. SilkTork *YES! 00:45, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
- A similar problem was encountered when attempting to define the boundaries of Malvern, Worcestershire. At the lowest level of local government, MH is probably a case of Civil parishes in England, but might call itself a Town Council. A large civil parish may well be divided up into wards. Some town areas or suburbs may also be minor CPs in their own right, and the district authority may have its own wards that overlap those boundaries of the local parishes and/or their wards. It's all very confusing because the councils' and the ONS maps are often not synchronised and are out of date or provide conflicting ionfo. This arises due to the boundaries for the reporting of the 2001 census, and subsequent boundary changes and/or creation of new CPs during the following decade. The Malvern issue was finally resolved when a Wikipedia editor solicited a personal meeting with the Malvern's town clerk.--Kudpung (talk) 05:03, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
- I'm pleased to see people are still working on this and making progress. I'll pop back in a couple of days for a closer look. SilkTork *YES! 17:41, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
I wanted to come here and make a decision, and I see that the question of the border has not quite been settled. That inclines me toward a fail. But all communities these days are fairly vague, and some areas that have Good Articles have disputes about the exact boundaries. All we need are some reliable sources that give some information about the boundary, and leave out making definitive statements about places which are uncertain - such as Thornton. I am going to make a decision this evening, but I want to give this article a good chance first. SilkTork *YES! 20:13, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
- I have a feeling that we can not find proof of Thornton being part of Milford Haven because it is not. I have found multiple non-notable websites discussing upper Thornton and Thorton as "outside Milford Haven" and "near Milford Haven". The only Thorntonesque references is Thornton Hall, which is in Seyton and not in Thornton. Welsh communities are fairly new constructs and Thornton seems to have fallen under the auspices of Milford Haven as it is the closest large settlement. It's just difficult to find non-proof. FruitMonkey (talk) 22:07, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
- An example of non-notable mentions include a local newspaper report from 1989 which states 'Mr. Anthony James, of Thornton, near Milford Haven'. I've got more of these, but not much stronger. FruitMonkey (talk) 22:10, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
- Oooh, this is better. BBC 2008, same type of mention. FruitMonkey (talk) 22:11, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
- If you take a look at NOMIS (select Census 2001 data, Census Area Statistics, then use either the wizard or advanced query, select urban areas and click on the map) then you'll see that Thornton definitely isn't part of the Milford urban area. The map here (download the PDF) reveals that it isn't part of the local government community area either.--Pondle (talk) 22:32, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
- Seems correct Pondle, though parts of Lower Thornton may be part of Milford: North Ward. I think the upshot is, that Thornton is not part of Milfird Haven. FruitMonkey (talk) 22:55, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
- Looking at the map I think Thornton Industrial Estate is part of the North ward (reflected in its Milford postal address?)[2] but the residential area of Thornton is to the west of the North ward boundary.Pondle (talk) 23:17, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
- Then lets remove it, and be done with it. FruitMonkey (talk) 23:19, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
- Looking at the map I think Thornton Industrial Estate is part of the North ward (reflected in its Milford postal address?)[2] but the residential area of Thornton is to the west of the North ward boundary.Pondle (talk) 23:17, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
- Seems correct Pondle, though parts of Lower Thornton may be part of Milford: North Ward. I think the upshot is, that Thornton is not part of Milfird Haven. FruitMonkey (talk) 22:55, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
- If you take a look at NOMIS (select Census 2001 data, Census Area Statistics, then use either the wizard or advanced query, select urban areas and click on the map) then you'll see that Thornton definitely isn't part of the Milford urban area. The map here (download the PDF) reveals that it isn't part of the local government community area either.--Pondle (talk) 22:32, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
- Oooh, this is better. BBC 2008, same type of mention. FruitMonkey (talk) 22:11, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
- An example of non-notable mentions include a local newspaper report from 1989 which states 'Mr. Anthony James, of Thornton, near Milford Haven'. I've got more of these, but not much stronger. FruitMonkey (talk) 22:10, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
- I have a feeling that we can not find proof of Thornton being part of Milford Haven because it is not. I have found multiple non-notable websites discussing upper Thornton and Thorton as "outside Milford Haven" and "near Milford Haven". The only Thorntonesque references is Thornton Hall, which is in Seyton and not in Thornton. Welsh communities are fairly new constructs and Thornton seems to have fallen under the auspices of Milford Haven as it is the closest large settlement. It's just difficult to find non-proof. FruitMonkey (talk) 22:07, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
I've included a cite link to that NOMIS map as an indication of the boundary. It was interesting looking at that map, as the last place I lived in Milford was with a gypsy called Fairy in the place marked Priory, and I recall walking down the footpath shown alongside Hubberston Pil to go to work in the cold storage on the dock. Is the cold storage still there? SilkTork *YES! 11:49, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
Passed
[edit]At last! Well done to everyone involved. SilkTork *YES! 13:06, 10 February 2010 (UTC)