Talk:Mo lei tau

"Literal" Translation?

A more literal translation would be "Nine comes after eight, but eight has nothing to do with nine".

I don't speak Chinese but I doubt that three characters (none of which are "eight" or "nine") actually translate into a sentence that long. --feitclub 17:51, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)

see here = http://www.hkfilm.net/schow.htm

OK, but it still sounds like a figurative translation to me. --feitclub 04:49, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC)

I speak Cantonese and yes it does. Gaau = nine; m = "negation" [doesn't]; daap = follow, to be next to; baat = eight 75.30.230.217 01:33, 22 December 2006 (UTC)Ninjarina

九唔搭八

Do we really want to go into such detail about "九唔搭八" , in article about "Mo Lei tau"? If it warrants it we could give "九唔搭八" its own wikidictionary entry , and leave its presence here as simply "another Cantonese term with a similar meaning is 九唔搭八 " and link to its own entry . This would leave the the article less cluttered.Cetot 10.36 BST 23rd August 2005

Feitclub to misquote Lewis Carrol, words can mean anything you want them to and if they can't they're not working hard enough ; and Chinese words work very hard .However maybe as translators we could show greater economy .My own best effort for 九唔搭八 so far would be "nine and eight don't stack ". That's five words to translate four , but only because I'm using a contraction Cetot 11.00 BST 23rd August 2005

Eh? Doesn't mo lei tau when translated literally mean "no head/brains"? --Bash 19:14, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

This is a problem with translating Chinese . Individual ideograms take on meanings depending on context and what that they are partnered with."來頭" on its own can be used to mean background , where are you from , as in for example toughs asking each other's "來頭" to see where each others backing is coming from . But it can also be used to mean the source of say a stream or well , in a close analogy to the english "well head" or "head of a river" . "無頭" on its own could literally mean headless as in being decapitated , but could be used to mean "without a begining" all depending on context . However by providing diferent partners "Mo tau No" would be "without a brain" or a way of saying someone was "simple minded" or stupid whilst "Mo tau shai" would be without a clue or clueless .Anyway my best take on "無來頭" would still be that it is literally "without a source or beginning" . Cetot 09.44 BST 23rd August 2005

I agree with Cetot, mo lei tau means "no origin" in Cantonese, not "no head". Of course, origin and head have the same meaning, though head here does not means any body part. Kowloonese 23:51, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't think 九唔搭八 is worthy of an article itself, rather "九唔搭八" is an example of Mo Lei Tau which we can expand here,. which is why I expanded it here. I don't think we need to be terse with our translation; the "9 doesn't stack with 8" doesn't connote all the subtelties of the phrase, let alone the slight alliteration it has which carries part of the humour...--HappyCamper 10:29, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

True.These phrases carry with them the weight of years of use that simply translating individual characters can't convey .Cetot 18.29 BST 23rd August 2005

There can be other explanations and origins of the phrase 九唔搭八. Actually, IMHO, this phrase is originated from a gambling game instead of counting numbers because 搭 does not really mean follow, it means match or pair up in Cantonese. In the tile game of Tien Gow or Pai Gow, the nines are the top tiles. One can play a pair of nines and the pair can beat many hands. However, when someone is pairing a "nine" tile with an "eight" tile, then it means someone is not following the rules, or being mo lei tau or 亂嚟. Actually there are quite a few of Cantonese slangs that are based on gambling e.g. 七個一皮 (chaos, not following rules 亂嚟, same meaning as 九唔搭八 but from the gambling game of Fan Tan where 一皮 is four, not seven), 一戙(棟)都冇 (out of solution with hands tied, from the gambling game of Tien Gow), and 二仔底死跟 (blindly follow, from the game of poker) etc.

Another possible explanation goes with the homophone for dog. Cantonese often uses slangs that verbally and playfully insult the unknowing victims with a secondary implication behind the original phrase. Instead of saying "two does not follow one", Cantonese uses nine (which is homophone with dog 狗) to imply the subject is a dog (a hidden playful insult) 狗唔搭八. Another Cantonese example is 十問九唔應 which lit. means nine of the ten questions were not answered, but the hidden insult also means a person named "Sup (10)" asked a question, but the "dog (9)" didn't answer. Say if person A asked a question and person B disrespectfully ignores it, then person A would comment 十問狗唔應 loudly enough for person B to hear it. However, when person B confronts person A for the insult, person A can easily dismiss it and say "I said nine. Unless you call yourself a dog, I didn't say anything about dog." Kowloonese 23:47, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Too complicated

I have a feeling that people are using circumlocutions , and examples to try and explain something they can't quite get their tongue around , and having made the investment of time and effort are unwilling to divest themselves of their previous work in favour of something simpler

Would it be easier just to describe "Mo Lei Tau" comedy as a genre akin to the madcap,screwball,harebrained and scatterbrained comedies familiar to Western audiences , for example . "Dumb and Dumber" and other Farrelly brothers comedies .Use Google to see if "madcap comedy" e.t.c. fit in with what your expectations of what "Mo Lei Tao" is .

If this is acceptable one solution would be to have two articles , the first trying to define what "Mo Lei Tao" is i.e. madcap,screwball e.t.c.;rather then trying to show through examples. This will be enough for most people . The present article can then be expanded into an article specifically about "Mo lei tao" cinema and films in Hong Kong , preserving the work and effort of previous contributers .Cetot 19.36 BST 21st August 2005.

I guess one way or another this is now an article about "Mo Lei Tao" comedy, rather then "Mo lei Tao" as a phrase in general use.I'll have a go at categorising it as such.Cetot 18.29 BST 23rd August 2005

See also wikipedia's entry on wacky comedy film the description is as close a fit as anything I've seen to "Mo Lei Tao" as a genre . Cetot 20.09 BST 21st August 2005

Development of Mo Lei Tau

With regards to the development of "Mo Lei Tau" . Does anyone think it would be right to consider Chow Yun Fat's use of catchphrases , especially his use of "I'll treat you to chicken and shark's fin soup." to mean "Drop dead" as a precurser of Mo Lei Tau comedy.Cetot11.14 BST 23rd August 2005

Misc'

Don't know if this is the right place to mention this but I've linked back to this article from Cinema of Hong Kong , and wacky film comedies . I've also put Mo lei tau as a catgory of Cinema of Hong Kong ..Cetot

Irreverent vs irrelevant

Since working on this article I've had the nagging feeling that the word "irrelevant" has been used where the word "irreverent" was intended . Given the nature of the article they both make sense , but I think irreverent better describes Mo lei tau .

Non film references to Mo Lei Tau

My most recent encounter with something described as "Mo lei tau" was a short piece in a TVB-USA magazine program . It described a court case in the USA in which a woman sued for damages and won against a furniture store , because she claimed that she was being harrassed by an unsupervised child , from whom the store failed to protect her. The "Mo Lei Tau" element comes from the fact that the child was her own . Goes to show you don't have to be Chinese or from Hong Kong to be "Mo lei tau" .Cetot 18.29 BST 23rd August 2005

Line 1

I wonder if the "mo lei tau" in the first line needs to be in italic font. Deryck C. 07:07, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

I think it should be, since it is still a phrase from another language, regardless of where in the article it is mentioned. I can't find anything in the style guides stating otherwise. Other examples of this can be found at cha chaan teng and dai pai dong. :) Javacava | leave a message! 22:01, 30 August 2005 (UTC)