Talk:Mr. Satan/Archive 1

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Move Request

Not even a formal MR, really. Mister Satan would be more appropriate than Mr. Satan (Dragon Ball) I think, an Mister Satan already redirects to Hercule (whichs redirects to Mr. Satan (Dragon Ball). There aren't any other "Mister Satan"s. -- DesireCampbell 12:25, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

If you know how... it wouldnt let me move to Mr. or Mister Satan, saying "a page of that name already exists". I didn't have time this morning to sort through the mess :\ Onikage725 14:46, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
It wouldn't let me either. I'm not too concerned about it. -- DesireCampbell 15:52, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
Wow. Just... wow. I actually read through most of the ongoing epic struggle over this name in the "Hercule" section. I find it hilarious how the one lone voice in favor of this fairly UNPOPULAR name (last I checked the United States does not even come close to out populating most of Europe and Asia) over a swarm of voices in favor of correcting a CENSORED name seemed completely convinced they had won out. The whole discussion was completely asinine. Pretty much every single one of WhisperToMe's points were systematically taken apart, and yet all he could manage in response was to blatantly ignore the more devastating counterpoints while restating his already countered points, which is in essence the thick headed man's way of saying "'Cause I said so." Gave me flashbacks to Wikistar.Fuad Ramses 15:35, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
Uuughh. How terrible is it that I just joined Wikipedia, have had very little interaction with anyone, and still know who, and what, WikiStar is? -- DesireCampbell 15:52, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
I could be wrong, but I think Superstar of the Daizex forums is one and the same. And if memory serves, he once drove you to the use of profanity. If they're different, they sure post and debate in exactly the same manner. Onikage725 17:01, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
My reputation proceeds me :P -- DesireCampbell 17:13, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
Power level debate a few back. I was fighting the good fight along with you :p Onikage725
I support the move to Mister Satan, also since I was the one who suggested that title be used in the first place. No need to keep the parenthesis there also since it's the only one on Wikipedia. --Power level (Dragon Ball) 19:52, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

DON'T Move Request

Yes, Whisper is attempting to move the page back to Hercule (Dragon Ball). This is a clear violation of Wikipedia Guidelines.

Whisper, if you're reading this STOP. You are vandalizing Wikipedia.

-- DesireCampbell 00:04, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

You put together an "informal" move request. And then you get snappy when you see it "unenforced?" WhisperToMe 00:26, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

The page was moved to Mr. Satan according to Wikipedia Guidelines. It was moved to Hercule for absolutely no reason. -- DesireCampbell 03:43, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

A consensus does not mean the same thing as a majority. WhisperToMe 03:53, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

A consensus is when almost everyone agrees to one course of action. If there's one person (read: you) who disagrees, a consensus can still be reached. Everyone else agreed that we should follow the standards set by other Wikipedia articles, Wikipedia Guidelines, and basic logic - you disagreed. -- DesireCampbell 04:07, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Move

Based on my count and analysis of the discussion, I moved the article to here. Please, for my health, no move requests. No more whining, complaining. This has gone on for long enough. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 21:43, 18 December 2006 (UTC)


Wow

Wow, I wasn't aware it was against some rule to tell known contributors that there is a vote going on. Also didn't know I wasn't allowed to be tongue-in-cheek when addressing someone directly on a user's talk page. I wasn't told the last vote was going on, missed it of my own accord, and many other ppl did too. So telling people whats up is wrong? I suppose the better method would be limit it to whomever has the page on a watchlist or happens to drift by in the next couple of days, and anyone who doesn't think to right off the bat or is busy in r/l or for any number of reasons doesn't log in for a couple of days officially doesn't count? I didn't tell any of those ppl what to vote for. Not all of them voted last time. My opinion on the matter was obvious and expressed sarcastically, but speaking my mind on a talk page is hardly a violation of any guideline or policy. Onikage725 17:03, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Nevermind. Never-fucking-mind (ooo, a swear, good thing Wiki isn't censored, though I'm sure someone is now honor bound to remind me to be civil). Telling editors who have worked to achieve consistent naming conventions for Dragon Ball articles that a vote is going on is "vote stacking." A vote flying under the radar over the span of a couple of days is considered an adequate assessment of worldwide consensus? I'm done with this damn article. It IS interesting that on a previous move request, WhisperToMe left a note for TJSpyke, JRP, Takuthehedgehog, VoiceofTreason, GeneralDuke, Starone, Kafziel, and Dhartung, and it was all gravy. Yet DesireCampbell and I are considered vote stackers for employing the use of sarcasm? Grow up. I did NOT say "Go vote for Mr. Satan," I said "Care to weigh in?" We're all big boys and girls, and if my comment was going to influence anyone's vote, they were likely going to vote that way anyway. I in no way told anyone how to vote. In fact, the vote I was referencing, I myself wasn't around to vote on.
This beurocratic bull is aggravating. Like on the previous vote, 64% was deemed not enough consensus. So if the proposal were worded "proposal to keep the page as Hercule" that 34% would have looked a little less like a win. The small handful claiming ownership of this article are welcome to it, as far as I'm concerned. Onikage725 17:48, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
I should point out that I crossed out my own vote when I changed it[1]. WhisperToMe did nothing improper in that regard. -Anþony (talk) 23:35, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
My mistake. I jumped to conclusions instead of checking the edit history. See what happanes when one gets riled up? I fixed my statement above. Sorry about that. Onikage725 09:55, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Huh? I wasn't vote stacking. I was leaving notes for everyone who took part in the last vote. Both Pro- and Anti- Satan. I didn't inform Nemu or Whisper because they already knew about it.

It seems like everytime a vote is brought up Mr. Satan wins. And everytime something goes wrong and the result is scrapped. I say we move the page to Mr. Satan, and if someone wants to bring up a move to Hercule, we'll vote on it then.-- DesireCampbell 20:02, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Are you guys sure about the move? I'll make the move once yall give me the ok. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 20:12, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
Eaxactly. I just want to make sure it is clear, since my name was slandered there too, that there was no "stacking." I literally went to the last move and opened up every user page who participated, except for those who had already voted. I then went on to drop the message to those whom I knew generally do participate in these votes or work on DB articles in general. How can we claim to know the consensus if those who would generally form that consensus can't be alerted that a poll is even taking place? Onikage725
If you had a problem with what WhisperToMe was doing on a previous move request, you should have mentioned it then. Regardless, Onikage725, you have mischaracterized your actions greatly. I specifically pointed to the portion of your notification statement that is problematic. It was not Care to weigh in? as you note, but rather since apparently winning the last one didn't "count"). You don't need to say Go vote for Option X to be attempting to be influencing !votes; that was enough. Additionally the two points by Nemu and DesireCampbell regarding the fact that some addressed the move request rather than the move itself rarely hold any weight (see Talk:Los Angeles, California, for example). -- tariqabjotu 20:41, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
Again I ask you to point to me to the Wikipedia policy that that states that I am not allowed to express sarcasm when talking to another editor. I also pointed out that the vote I jokingly referred to wasn't even one I myself participated in. I was making a reference to its majority having been ignored. That's simple math, and I'm sorry if you or Whisper can't see the irony of it. But I was hardly "vote stacking." I have no problem with people voting opposite my opinion. I just wanted to make sure people who didn't vote (and those who did) last time got to this time around. Maintaining NPOV is a must for edits, but hardly for leaving a message on a user's talk page. It's called the freedom of speech- Everyone has the right to opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers. Last I checked, that was international law, but I suppose it only counts so long as you or Whisper think people might be swayed to vote against them on an article about a comic book character. Onikage725 21:06, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
Since when was that international law? Regardess, maintaining NPOV is a must when you decide to inform someone of a move request. I am beginning to repeat myself... if you don't agree with it, fine. Perhaps another admin will see from your point of view, unprotect the article, and move it based on your entreaties. -- tariqabjotu 21:17, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
The United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 19. Furthermore, in the United States it is a Constitutional right protected by the First Amendment. But hey, I'm sorry my comment was construed the wrong way. It was an off the cuff remark, nothing more. It isn't like those users always vote the way I do, nor would a comment like that influence their stance on the matter. The debating here, maybe. A small sarcastic remark? I don't seriously think you believe that. It's just wierd...someone said before that the last vote was something like 64%. THis one 63? Yet it seems like it is more relevant to win on technicality. I'll go reword every single message I left if you'll re-open. It doesn't matter how people vote, just that as many people who care about these articles as possible get the chance to vote. Y'see that list I wrote of ppl Whisper contacted for a previous one? He was aiming for that, but didn't know everyone or have the time to contact everyone or what have you. I can evidnce that from a number of major contributors to DB articles who weren't notified, myself included. I didn't know the issue was being thrown down until BT2 made me fight #18 in two different damn scenarios and for whatever reason I came to the page. The last time I checked the page it was at Mr. Satan, though I suppose in retrospect this was a contested and quickly reverted move that I happened to catch before the RV. Onikage725 22:56, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
Anyways, the tally here is 7 to 4... about 63% in favor of moving, and 37% against. There's no supermajority. I think we should wait until January 1, 2007. WhisperToMe 21:31, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
Sixty percent is usually enough for a move request to be considered successful. However, I see zero contact on the talk page of Mets501 as to why he decided to ignore the sixty percent threshold. -- tariqabjotu 21:43, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
Because it's not a supermajority. There's still an opposition. And, this vote was made not long after the previous one failed anyway. However, what we will do now is contact the Wikiproject. WhisperToMe 22:15, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
No, you can't. It's been move protected. Or something like that.--SUIT 20:14, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
He's an admin. I don't see why the page shouldn't be moved. The general consensus seems to be for the move. Out of the four opposers, only one gave a reason dealing with the actual article instead of the move, but that point has nothing to with it. Nemu 20:19, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
Well, if he's an admin he can. Please do. I would have if I could. This has gone on far too long. "Hercule" doesn't have a leg to stand on. And if there is any reason to use Hercule, someone can make a MR for Mr. Satan to Hercule - if that happens we'll take it from there. --DesireCampbell 20:24, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I am an administrator. I have the ability to move and edit pages if they are under normal protection. However, it is also my responsbility to make sure I make the right move only once. While I do know that this latest round of (whatever you want to call this) may not be the clear and concise "consensus" that some strive for to solve Wikipedia debates. However, I feel that given how contensious this move request is, I think we should ask the entire anime wikiproject for their thoughts. Agreed? User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 21:46, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
That's perfectly reasonable. -- tariqabjotu 21:49, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
Hey, that's fine too :) WhisperToMe 22:15, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
By the way, kids - I linked to this debate from the MoS Japan-style page. WhisperToMe 23:29, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Well. This is rather interesting. We need some form of continuity. Half the DB pages refer to Funi names as alternate names. The other half consider them the actual names. I keep missing the votes, so I guess I'll be paying more attention to this talk page... If this page remains at Hercule, perhaps we should change Usagi Tsukino to Serena, Sakura Kinomoto to Sakura Avalon, and Doctor Tenma to Doctor Boynton. It's my opinion that if a work was released FIRST in another language, that the names of characters from the original language be the title of the articles. Do I make sense? I think so. Teh Shingen 12:28, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

You make sense. You're saying the same thing that WP:Anime's guidelines say. This page shouldn't be named Hercule, that's been made clear. I'm just waiting a while until I force the issue again. There are more pressing issues at hand. If 'Hercule' was used on any other page, I'd put this on high priority, but as it is, the character is only referred to as 'Hercule' in the article title, the first paragraph, and the top of the infobox. Every other article refers to him as Mr. Satan, and Mister Satan redirects here. Naming the page 'Hercule' is against logic, standard practice, and official guidelines - but I'm not up for more bickering right now. I'll make a speedy move request eventually, and include the reasons for using Mister Satan, but not right now. --DesireCampbell 19:46, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Till then, let me rip up Shingen's argument -
1. Sakura Kinomoto is known as such in the English-language manga, so she doesn't count.
2. As explained earlier, the English-language versions of Sailor Moon are not out of print. WhisperToMe 21:28, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
3. "It's my opinion that if a work was released FIRST in another language, that the names of characters from the original language be the title of the articles. Do I make sense? I think so" You mean, Pokemon should be Pocket Monsters? WhisperToMe 21:28, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
1. And he's referred to as "Mr. Satan" in the current dub and official Japanese translations. 2. the edited dub, where he is called "Hercule" is, in fact, out of print; the only dub available on DVD is the new uncut dub (where he is "Mr. Satan") and the uncut dub airs on both the Funimation channel and cartoon network. And 3. Maybe. I don't know. There's less of a case for that as it's not called 'Pocket Monsters' in any English language release. That is very much unlike the matter at hand, where "Mr. Satan" is used in current official releases. --DesireCampbell 05:11, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
The thing is that if you go out and find someone that isn't a Dragonball otaku, which is nearly everyone that casually watches the show but doesn't get obsessed, they've never heard of Mr Satan, regardless of whether that is the better, more accurate, official name in Japanese, or whatever. That simply doesn't matter to them. The common name is Hercule because that what common people know him as. Unfortunately. I'll almost buy your argument because, in this case, FUNi went ahead and called him Satan in the uncut anime which is also widely distributed. As opposed to Bardock, which is always Bardock, and it's just a localization difference. I'd offer to trade, but that would be wrong. ;) JRP 22:14, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

You seem to be saying that we should intentionally publish incorrect information, ignore guidelines, ignore standard practices, and go against consensus, because the initial dubbing back in '98 is more common? You would rather disregard WP:MOS-JP and WP:Anime standard practices in order to, what? Make the page more accessible to the ignorant? If your concern is people will try to look for Hercule (Dragon Ball) and not find anything, we do have the ability to redirect pages - I'm not sure if you are aware of such a feature, but it's pretty handy. I've said it before and explained at length why - The article name should be Mister Satan. There is only one reason to use "Hercule" and I have already twarted that cleanly: the idea that the name is more common than "Satan" is unfounded and unverifiable. It is a name used only in Funimation's old edited dub - it is not used in the current Funimation dub, which airs on television and is released on DVD. --DesireCampbell 05:11, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

You keep touting those guidelines yet do not even know what you're talking about. So, to that end, I'm going to show you why you need to read more carefully.
WP:MOS-JP: The English Wikipedia is an English language encyclopedia. An English loan word or place name with a Japanese origin should be used in its most commonly used English form in the body of an article, even if it is pronounced or spelled differently from the properly romanized Japanese: use Mount Fuji, Tokyo, jujutsu, shogi, instead of Fujisan, Tōkyō, jūjutsu, shōgi. Give the romanized Japanese form in the opening paragraph if it differs from the English form (see below).
See the bold part? In case it hasn't sunk in yet, Hercule is much more widely known than Mr. Satan.
WP:ANIME:Name your pages in English and place the native transliteration on the first line of the article unless the native form is more commonly recognized by readers than the English form. See: WP:NAME
WP:NAME: Use the most common name of a person or thing that does not conflict with the names of other people or things.
This is covered in more in WP:COMMONNAME.
Next time you try to back up your arguments with those guidelines, I suggest you understand how they work. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 05:37, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Let's try this again:

  • WP:MOS-JA "An English loan word or place name with a Japanese origin should be used in its most commonly used English form"
Yes! Exactly! Use the common English form for all Japanese loan words! ミスター・サタン (Misutā Satan) is a loan word, specifically it's "Mister Satan". "Hercule" is neither a loan word, nor Japanese.
  • WP:Anime#Sections "Characters should be called what the series officially states their romaji names as."
Here is the section dealing specifically with character names. A character's "official romanji name" would be what the original production company writes it as (which would be "Mister or Mr. Satan"). If such is not available from the production company, then using a recent, popular English distribution company would be acceptable (which in this case would be "Mister or Mr. Satan" as well).
"If that does not exist, use what they are named in the most recent or popular English translation, if it exists, isn't egregiously bad, and is the generally-used name (a google test is appropriate here)."
If we had no translations for the Japanese script available (either from the production company or any English distribution company) then we would use a name translation (more commonly refered to as a "dub name"). So, if we went back in time to 1997 (and completely ignored Japan), we'd use "Hercule".
"Otherwise, use a literal transliteration."
Which would be "Mister or Mr. Satan".
  • Why do you believe that "Hercule" is more common than "Mr. Satan"? On Wikipedia we assume good faith, which means we don't ask for verification needlessly, only when a point is contested. I am contesting the idea that "Hercule" is more common than "Mr. Satan" (or variants there of). The only thing I can think of would be a Google test, but that doesn't come out in "Hercule's" favour at all. [2]

Beyond that, I'd rather work this out through discussion. If you would like to also, I would be nothing but pleased. --DesireCampbell 06:09, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

From a canon standpoint, Mr. Satan. Per Toriyama, Mr. Satan is his stage name and his real name is unknown. This trumps Shonen Jump USA saying it's his real name, because direct statements by the author are a higher level of canon than a translation. The Uncut DVD dub calls him Mr. Satan. Naturally, the sub calls him Mr. Satan. Obviously the original work calls him Mr. Satan, as does the original anime adaptation. There is no argument that has been presented yet that convinces me that we should leave it at Hercule. Teh Shingen 12:04, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Just to clear a couple things up; neither Toriyama, not Toei, nor Shueisha have said anything about Mr. Satan's name. It's just the only name we hear from him. The American Jump gives notes about his real name being "Hercule" and "Mr. Satan" being a stage name - this cannot be taken at face value as it is clear that "Hercule" is derived from the French dub, and no mention of this name appears in the original text, script, or databooks. "Mr. Satan" being a stage name makes sense, but there's no data to back that up. --DesireCampbell 20:04, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually, it doesn't make sense that "Mr. Satan" is a stage name. Why? Because his daughter is named with a similar pun; Videl is an anagram of Devil. You would have trouble convincing me that "Videl" is her stage name. I'm willing to bet that the only reason her name wasn't changed too is because FUNimations censors are too dumb to get the joke. --Son Goharotto 16:30, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm not saying "Mr. Satan" is his stage name, or there's any evidence to back up such a claim - just that (coming from a real-life perspective) "Mr. Satan" sounds more like a stage name than a real name. Of course, this is Dragon Ball, where everyone has a crazy name that doesn't make sense in real life. --DesireCampbell 12:07, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

  • Hercule (Dragon Ball) → Mister Satan —(Discuss)— "Mr. Satan" is the name used in the original Japanese script, is used in the Japanese subtitles on the Funimation dual language DVDs, and is used in the current Funimation English dub for both television and home release. "Mr. Satan" is used on all Dragon Ball articles, and as the official English romanji "Mr. Satan" falls under WP:Anime#Sections guidelines. "Hercule" originated in the French dub, derived from the Greek "Hercules", and is used only in the censored English dub and the censored manga. —DesireCampbell 20:24, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
    • Note to admin closing this debate User:Someguy0830 discovered User:Power level (Dragon Ball) attempting to influence the debate through vote-staking for "Support" votes, in violation of WP:SPAM. For example: [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12]. "Power level" has admitted to it in the page history. (You'd think I'm the only one on Wikipedia who vote-stacks don't you...). I do not believe we have a consensus with or without this effort, but this action should be considered before closing this move request. JRP 05:15, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
      • Another note to the admin closing this debate Yes, I admit to the vote-stacking, but not for everyone to support the move, but to share their opinion in light of the subject. Besides, the only other reason why I'm doing this is because WhisperToMe did the same when the Hercule (Dragon Ball) dispute occured several times before. That's it. Power level (Dragon Ball) 15:44, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
        • He did no such thing. He canvassed the entire spectrum with a neutral informative topic. You picked deliberately biased wording and informed like minded voters. Also, the supposed mistakes of another user do not permit you to break the rules on your own. You should be smarter than that. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 15:51, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Survey

Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

  • Oppose - Hercule is still more common. WhisperToMe 23:20, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose - Your average fan will not know who Mr. Satan is. I did not know who Mr. Satan was until trying to search Hercule. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 00:57, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose - Per WP:NAME, "Hercule" is the common name of the character in the English-speaking world, the audience of the English-language wikipedia. "Mr. Satan" is the appropriate name for a redirect and we should explain carefully in the article about the distinction, but "Hercule" is the correct title. JRP 02:06, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Support - I don't like voting, but my reasons are above, and below - DesireCampbell 08:19, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
    • You don't need to vote. Your vote is counted because you advanced the move. You should strike this one out so you are not counted twice. JRP 15:36, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong Support - per DesireCampbell. Even if we lose this survey vote, what matters is the character's romanized name and pun lineage. Remember that we don't use censored names for minors, meaning that even if you're a typical American fan of DB/DBZ/DBGT, or a parent, or even if little kids see the name "Mister Satan" and get scared or offended, you can't sue Wikipedia or do anything else about it since we have that policy. Besides, the VIZ manga uses "Mister Satan" too doesn't it? The DB fansubbed manga on my computer uses it, but I'm not sure about VIZ's. Power level (Dragon Ball) 14:50, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose, Hercule is way more common. Voretustalk 15:36, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment - This isn't about using common names, it's about using the translated names that were given to these characters! Maybe you didn't see the Bardock survey to see how that turned out. I believe you (and anyone else) would be convinced after viewing it that Hercule's name should be Mister Satan. If not, you shall see proof very soon... Power level (Dragon Ball) 15:46, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment - Why thank you Someguy, that means a lot coming from you since I'm the first person who's ever vote-stacked before... Power level (Dragon Ball) 00:17, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
    Comment You're welcome. Feel free to do the same if you catch anyone else trying it. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 00:22, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong Support - When Kuririn, Gohan, and Dende are being chased by Dodoria, the first dub had Kuririn quoting the Christian children's bedtime prayer, "Now I lay me down to sleep." Does that mean Kuririn is a Christian in the American version, even though he was clearly designed after a Buddhist monk? Of course not! Rewrites in a foreign-language dub should not invalidate facts from the original Japanse production. That Satan's name was changed to "Hercule" for the American version should be a foot note in the Mister Satan article, not the other way around. —the preceding comment is by Son Goharotto (talk • contribs) : Please sign your posts!.
    Note - Note that Son Goharotto has 54 edits as of writing and has been editing since November 24, 2006 [23] WhisperToMe 21:06, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
    Isn't that kind of thing geared towards newer people or single purpose accounts instead of people that don't edit that often? Nemu 22:34, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
    Single purpose account would be better, which is why I've moved this below his vote. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 22:38, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
    [24] - Some guest tried to edit your comment to forge it WhisperToMe 03:19, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
    It looks like the same comment. The difference is just the result of him spacing his comment above mine. The writing's the same. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 03:27, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Support - Mr. Satan, which I belive is his original name, should be used. I don't think it matters if Hercule is the more common name. My friends, brother and I have all known Kuririn as Krillin for years (it would be about five years for my brother and about eight years for my freinds and I since my brother is younger than us and he was introduced to Dragon Ball at an older age than us) and I'm sure plenty of you know (or knew) him as Krillin. I don't see people changing Kuririn to Krillin as it's the more "common name". If you go to Google and type in Krillin, you get 275,000 results. If you type in Kuririn, you get 226,000 results, making Krillin the more "common name" (based off of Google's search engine). Why should this article be any different? // Sasuke-kun27 20:37, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment, pages should be looked at individually. The articles on Pokemon are at their English names. Should that set a precedent for this? No. It should be case-by-case. Voretustalk 20:50, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Support -- Mister Satan was the original name. It is used in all Japanese and most English versions. Replacing "Satan" with "Hercule" is a form of censorship which some may argue is appropriate for some TV audiences, but not for Wikipedia. A disambiguation page already exists for Hercule, so there should not be any problem finding the real entry: Mister Satan. Bendono 01:07, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
    Comment The name Hercule is not censorship, it is merely a choice to avoid negative publicity. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 01:09, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
    Why exactly do you think there would be negative publicity? Is there something wrong or controversial about the original name "Mister Satan"? Bendono 03:09, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
    The article explains the reason. The name was changed to avoid connotations with Satan, which is looked upon unfavorably by some. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 03:14, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
    And hence the comment about censorship. Bendono 03:24, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Support It's his original name. And like it was mentioned earlier, we shouldn't be using censored names. VelocityEX 04:21, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Support canon. I was not contacted for comment. Dekimasu 07:49, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
    From what I understand correctly, the VIZ manga is censored. So is the anime. Listen to me, most of the DB characters' articles' are named from the manga and name puns given to them, which was not given in coralation to the English anime. How is this any different?! If anything, then all of the current DB related articles should moved back to their respective English anime names. But they won't, unless there is some new consensus about it... Power level (Dragon Ball) 16:30, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
    You didn't understand with VIZ' - VIZ clearly identifies Mr. Satan as the "Japanese name" in the Shonen Jumps. The use of Hercule is probably there as an adaptation, NOT as "censoring." WhisperToMe 21:01, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
    Hercule is canon too - If a company is paid by the owner company to adapt the series, then the name is canon. WhisperToMe 15:33, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment Sorry 'bout that vote-stacking which was amplied thanks to JrP and Someguy0830. I wish I could have gotten more people though, but maybe I gotten my point across after calling this many fellow Wikipedians... Power level (Dragon Ball) 15:32, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
    How does pointing out that you broke the rules, amplify the breaking of the rule? Violating policy to get your point across isn't really convincing anyone, is it? JRP 17:39, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Support The character's actual name. Wikipedia isn't censored, etc. Bnynms 18:53, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
    As of writing, he has 10 edits, since December 13, 2006 - Very new account [25] - He says that he had been editing under an anon account for a month before getting an account. WhisperToMe 22:46, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
    I resent what you're suggesting. To think that you're an administrator... Bnynms 02:36, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
    Identifing low-use or single purpose accounts is common practice on such debates, especially when dealing with a topic where vote-stacking and group-voting among friends is so commonplace. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 02:41, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose- I still believe it should be kept as Hercule. Yes, Mr. Satan is the original name, but most people I know call him Hercule.--SUIT 22:54, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong Oppose Isn't this like the 4th time in the last 3 months this has been requested? Hercule is by far the more common name for him. TJ Spyke 00:39, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong Support per any number of dead horses I'm far too tired to beat right now. Onikage725 16:03, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong Support First of all Hercule isn't even CLOSE to the more commonly accepted name. Yeah the most common in the U.S. and maybe France (where the name originated). But certainly not in the rest of the world that has a dub of Dragon Ball Z, including nearly the entirety of Asia, which by itself vastly out populates little 'ol United States and France. And playing devil's advocate, even if we went about basing all the Dragon Ball character names on what they are known as in the english dub because we assume that that's how they are the most commonly known, then why aren't we reverting Kuririn back to Krillin? Or Tenshinhan back to Tien? Hell Kintoun to Flying Nimbus while we're at it. Again this doesn't make any damned sense and flies in the face of logic. It was agreed not to base the names primarily on the english dub for pretty much everything Dragon Ball related in the series, so why is Mr. Satan (and Paikuhan/Pikkon apparently) the only exception to this rule? Regardless of which name is more widely used, that shouldn't even be a consideration. Wikipedia isn't about popularity; it's about factual accuracy. Also let's not forget that this is a LITERARY character (he originated in a manga), and in the original source material he is named Mr. Satan. The name Hercule was used in the U.S. as a means of censorship, something Wikipedia does not (and should not) condone or perpetuate. Also (and I rarely if ever see this point brought up), in the uncut DVDs and VHSs of the U.S. dub, he's called Mr. Satan. So essentially he's only called Hercule on Cartoon Network, or any other channel that airs the edited version (and France). So unless we're considering the edited Cartoon Network airings to be somehow more "canon" than the uncut tapes and DVDs of the english dub, then said dub still acknowledges him as Mr. Satan. So English or Japanese, he's still Mr. freaking Satan. He's Mr. Satan everywhere except Cartoon Network and France. Again, how is this considered "by far the more commonly accepted name?" Let's not even go into the argument of seniority. This character has existed since what, 1992, 1993? And throughout the decade or so prior to the edited TV version of the English dub he was known EVERYWHERE (again excluding France) as Mr. Satan. Face the facts children: Cartoon Network lies to you. On almost any level or angle you'd care to argue, he's Mr. Satan. Nearly all the opposing arguments have thus far come across as either inane, ignorant, arrogant, cement headed, and occasionally even xenophobic. Oh and then there's the whole VIZ thing. This is the same company that gave Vegetto's name as "Vegerot", Majin Buu as "Djinn Buu", and Saibaimen as "Cultivars". Don't see anyone in any hurry to change those articles to the corresponding VIZ names do ya? Fuad Ramses 10:13, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
    • Fuad Ramses, here are the audiences that we, for the most part, care about: USA, UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India, Nigeria... etc - Out of the world's population, this Wikipedia caters to people who speak English. Now, Fuad, where do you think most of those people live? - By the way, the English versions of DBZ also air in Canada, UK, Australia, and NZ. WhisperToMe 16:35, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
      • I forgot about Canada, UK and such. Good call. Let me back up and revise then. If what you claim above is the case Whisper, then why isn't everyone gung ho to revert Kuririn to Krillin? Muten Roshi to Master Roshi? Tenshinhan to Tien? Let's not even go into the attack lists. By your rationale (that we use only what's familiar to English speaking DBZ fans), then surely the names I mentioned above ought to be just as big targets for a vote to return to their dub names as this one. Except they aren't. Because last I checked it was agreed (by consensus) to go with the names from the ORIGINAL SOURCE MATERIAL. It's all about CONSISTANCY. No one has any problem with calling the "Special Beam Cannon" by it's original (and correct) name Makankosapo along with the Kikoho and the zillion other Japanese attack names used on the attack list page (90% of which are completely different and again incorrect in the English dub), and yet Mr. Satan is a problem? Surely you don't believe that the same English speaking fans you're so scared will scratch their heads at Mr. Stan will have no problem with accepting Makankosapo do you? And don't lay on me the old VIZ excuse. Again if we were basing our naming conventions on them, we'd be calling Saibaimen "Cultivars", Majin Buu "Djinn Buu", etc. And yet we're not. Why? Because all of those names are not the original character names from the original source material. They are incorrect, either badly mistranslated or completely made up by the distributor. They do not reflect the original work by the author Akira Toriyama. And that's the bottom line. Wikipedia is a tool to inform. If English speaking users are unfamiliar with names like Mr. Satan and Paikuhan and so forth, then guess what? They'll become familiar with them by coming here and getting linked to or redirected to the right name and then be able to read up on it. That's what this place is for remember? What you’re arguing is the antithesis of that; perpetuating inaccurate information under this misguided assumption that this supposed "majority" cannot (or should not?) accept new information that's not familiar to them. At least that's what your logic in this matter seems to indicate. Fuad Ramses 02:24, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
    Stop posting long paragraphs of non-sequitor arguments. It won't help. We're discussing the rationale of this page, not others. There is also nothing inaccurate about using the officially licensed names for a series dubbed into English. In fact, it's more accurate to the English speaking Wikipedia to use those names. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 02:36, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
    Fine I'll keep it short, sweet, and to the point: It's absolutely wrong to place emphasis on a newer adaptation of an old work over the original when said adaptation deviates from the intention of the original author, be it officially licensed or otherwise. The purpose of Wikipedia is to be informative and stick to the facts, not echo popularly held views. Any argument to the contrary is counter productive to the purpose of the site. That work for you? Fuad Ramses 03:04, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
    Better, but still wrong, because you are overblowing the importance of the name to make your argument seem valid. A name change does not infringe on the work of the author, nor does a translation made for the benefit of an English-speaking audience in any way demean the original work. Maybe you should complain about why we use Vienna over Wien and see what happens. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 03:08, 18 December 2006 (UTC)\
    You can't possibly be serious. First off, ANY alteration made to a creative work (regardless of how small or seemingly insignificant) affects it in some way, hence why they should only be made with good reason. Any writer or artist worth their salt will tell you that. Secondly, you yourself even can't possibly buy that this alteration was made for the "benefit of an English-speaking audience". Creatively interpreting a foreign word or joke that has no English translation or equivalent is for the benefit of an English-speaking audience. This? This was a purely business motivated decision to maximize TV ratings and profits on merchandizing without offending psychotic soccer moms who have far too much free time on their hands. A far cry from “benefiting” the intended audience (hint: they're not the soccer moms). And if that last point is somehow “irrelevant” to the topic at hand, just remember: you brought it up. And lastly, apart from the above, if the best counter argument you can come up with is to demean my point by essentially inferring that my choice of wording is somehow too "serious" for debating the name of a fictional character from an old manga/anime (on Wikipedia of all places, where anything and everything is debated with inapropriate seriousness) than you've truly run out of counter arguments and are grasping for straws. Whoops. Paragraph ran on for too long again. My bad. Fuad Ramses 03:46, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
    We call Koopas by their English name. Do you assert that we are somehow harming the Japanese version of the characters? We call Vienna by its English name instead of its German name. Do you assert that we are harming "Wien" by doing so? You keep complaining that using Hercule is somehow affecting the original work. Prove it. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 04:34, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
    Also, I should address the "benefit" thing. Hercule is a benefit for English-speaking audiences, because they couldn't very well get the program on the air otherwise. Even censorship is a benefit, no matter how annoying it may seem to those people who are motivated enough to track down fansubs. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 05:17, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
    Names are an important factor in Dragon Ball, and a large part of the fun of the series. This is (or at least should be) common knowledge, but just about every single character (in a cast of hundreds) in the series has some form of pun or meaning behind their name, ranging from clever (Saiya and Tsufuru), to groaners (Sharpner and Eraiza/Erasa), obvious (Piccolo Daimao and his minions), to obscure (Dodoria and Zarbon), some damn near ingenious (Bibidi, Babidi, and Majin Buu), or wonky (the Ginyu Force), and even religious meaning (Enma Daio). Most fictional stories taking place in a fantasy or sci-fi universe have no problem making up random exotic sounding names with no rhyme or reason to them, yet in Dragon Ball such character names are very rare. Some pun names are obvious, but some are VERY nuanced and well hidden. Hell there’s even entire groups of characters whose name puns have a reoccurring theme to them. It's one of those little extra miles that sets it aside from the norm and helps it stand out. And it's just plain fun to figure some of them out or learn them from others and go "oh yeah I get it!". And I’m certainly not speaking solely for myself on that viewpoint, as there are DBZ fansites with page after page after page dedicated to unraveling the zillions of name puns in the series. And the English dubs tendency to alter names mostly for no reason whatsoever (Mr. Satan is a rare exception where it's censorship motivated) completely destroys the pun factor of the series (one of it's trademarks in it's native land) rendering many names just random exotic sounding nonsense, while creating naming convention inconsistancies at the same time. Does it single handedly ruin the entire series? No, but it does contribute in taking the fun and uniqueness out of it. Thus obviously affecting the work. In the case of Mr. Satan, it takes away the devil themed pun he and his daughter share. You're above two examples are irrelevant and miss the point entirely, because Koopa was chosen by the game's original creator (when my whole argument is about keeping as close to the original creator’s intent as possible), and the Wien/Vienna thing you're so in love with has absolutely nothing to do with anything. A "non sequiter argument" if you will. Oh yeah that reminds me: you just drudged up Wikipedia's use of Koopa to help support your argument right? Weren't you the one who slapped my wrist and told me "We're discussing the rationale of this page, not others." not that far up? At least when I cited other Wikipedia articles, they were still Dragon Ball related articles.Fuad Ramses 08:41, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
    And you say I attack your arguments? Yes, I did say we're discussing this page, but what I am doing is pointing out examplpes of precedent in completely unrelated articles, not trying to push a move by saying that we're already done a flawed job to others in a similarly flawed article set at the same time. You use the fact that we haven't moved those pages within this series already as reason to move this. Such logic is flawed. As for the puns, nothing prevents you from mentioning a pun about a foreign name if the article is under the English name. Again, all you're doing is over-stressing the importance of the name itself. Changing a name does not affect the work. No regular English speaker would have gotten the puns anyway. As for your Wien/Vienna comment, now you're just ignoring the obvious, because that's exactly what this is. Few know Koopas as Nokonokos and fewer still will know Wien is Vienna. Equally, few will recognize Mr. Satan as Hercule, because few other than the fans voting here care to look for it. All changing the name to Mr. Satan does is confuse the hell out of casual readers.
    Let me get to the point. Give one good reason why we should ignore WP:NAME. No nonsense about fun, no complaints about author's intent. Give one reason why we should ignore Wikipedia policy to appease those who are so utterly intent on making Dragon Ball one of the most confusing article sets in existence. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 08:52, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
    *Takes deep breath* Ok bear with me here. Looking over WP:NAME yielded some interesting finds. To start with in the "Controversial names" section (note the bold is my emphasis): "In a few cases of naming conflicts, editors have been unable to reach a strong consensus to support one name above another name. In these instances, both names are allowed. The current title of a page is not intended to imply that either the title name is preferred or the alternative name is discouraged in the text of articles." Okay so that part right there is a strike against me. Fine I accept. However does this mean that we can all just agree to leave it Hercule for the title, use one or the other for the articles and go home? Unfortunately it's more complicated than that. Further on: "The naming convention used by the earliest contributor takes precedent. Any effort to change between names should be examined on a case-by-case basis, and discussed on talk pages before making changes. (Fuad's note: which we're doing right now) However, rather than debating controversial names, please consider other ways to improve Wikipedia." {Fuad's note: Ha! Little late for that.) So considering that Hercule was the first name used for the article, that should take precedent right? I'm gonna skip backwards now to the intro: "Generally, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature. Names of Wikipedia articles should be optimized for readers over editors; and for a general audience over specialists. " Again this appears to be shooting down the arguments of my entire side of the debate. HOWEVER...: "It is important to note that these are conventions, not rules carved in stone. As Wikipedia grows and changes, some conventions that once made sense may become outdated, and there may be cases where a particular convention is "obviously" inappropriate. But when in doubt, follow convention." And this is where WhisperToMe and the pro-Hercule side of the debate hits a MAJOR stumbling block that they've seemingly gone out of their way to ignore. Wikipedia guidelines are GUIDELINES. Guidelines being the OPPOSITE of policy. These are bendable rules, but bendable where appropriate. And why do I feel that some rule bending is appropriate in the case of this article? It all comes back to that magical word: CONSISTANCY. I again point to this key sentence in WP:NAME; "In a few cases of naming conflicts, editors have been unable to reach a strong consensus to support one name above another name. In these instances, both names are allowed. The current title of a page is not intended to imply that either the title name is preferred or the alternative name is discouraged in the text of articles." So where am I going with this? Mr. Satan vs. Hercule is one tiny sample of a larger issue: English dub names (and other countries with altered names) vs. Japanese names. Let's say we agree that Hercule is the more commonly known name, and the article title should be named as such. Fine. But according to WP:NAME this means that the title of the article has NO bearing on the other accepted versions of the name. In other words, sure the article would be named Hercule, but everywhere else in the article, hell even other articles where the character is mentioned, could potentially (and very likely) contain a mess of interchangeable Mr. Satans and Hercules. Okay that in and of itself may not be so bad, I mean that's just this one character right? Wrong. Again this is a piece of a larger debate. In order to help keep all Dragon Ball related articles from deteriorating into (as Someguy put it) "one of the most confusing article sets in existence", somehow someway, we're gonna have to bend the rules a bit and forego the part about the title of the article not dictating the names used interchangeably in the text, and PICK A CONCLUSIVE SIDE: a Japanese naming convention with the alternatives as footnotes in their respective articles, or an English dub naming convention with everything else footnoted. Because if we were to follow WP:NAME to the letter of the law as if it were scripture, as the pro-Hercule side seems deadset on (in spite of the fact that the page goes out of it's way to encourage users NOT to), then we'll also by proxy be able to use any set of canoninically accepted Dragon Ball names (Japanese, French, FUNimation, VIZ, pick your poison) INTERCHANGEABLY throughout every Dragon Ball related Wikipedia article, in spite of article titles being all English dub names. Can you even BEGIN to imagine what a world of confusion THAT will make for the "average Joe Sixpack" English reader of Wikipedia? The only way we're gonna keep these sets of articles readable, simple, understandable, and above all CONSISTANT, is if we pick a universally accepted set of names for this series, and keep all the "alternatives" as trivia for their respective articles, while making liberal use of redirects and disambiguations for the benefit of those who may be overtly familiar with a differing name. So instead of bickering over each individual name in their respective articles and driving one another nuts in the process, what we SHOULD be doing is holding a vote in the main Dragon Ball section over which naming conventions should be Wikipedia's standard. And given the choice, my vote goes to the original Japanese names (surprise surprise). Why when the English dub names are so much more well known to English speaking readers? Simple; the nature of the shoddy translation work done to the English dub of the series makes it so that the English naming conventions aren't even consistent WITHIN THEMSELVES. Numerous people, places, things, and attacks have not been given names in the dub while they were given names in the original Japanese version, have been given names where they were un-named in the Japanese version, and most confusing of all, lots of times the English version has given someone or something MULTIPLE names where in the Japanese version they had one. The attack list page alone would be in shambles. How many names has the Kikoho had in the dub again? About a dozen? The Japanese names are by far the most internally consistent set of names out of the bajillion the series has had, not to mention all of the above mentioned reasons (it came first, respect to the author's original intent, etc.) just adding more fuel to the fire. Are the English dub names more familiar to English speaking people? Sure, I'll bite. Does that make them any less confusing, inconsistent, and nonsensical next to its nice, neatly consistent Japanese predecessor? Hell no. So to sum up: Dragon Ball = Confusing = Extenuating circumstances = We should take advantage of that opening paragraph in WP:NAME and bend the rules slightly to avoid a clusterf*ck. And I DEEPLY apologize for the obnoxious length of that response from the bottom of my heart. *Whew!* And.... I'm... spent! Fuad Ramses 10:41, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
    You bold and OVERCAPIALIZE far too much. To your assertion that guidleines can be bent, WP:NAME isn't a guideline. It's policy, and the one line up top is not a forgive-all excuse to ignore it. It's only for situations where an article cannot reasonably be titled under a specific and widely known name. That is not the case here. To your argument that the article name has no bearing on other names, this is true, but consistency is still key. You can't title a character article one name then use another. That's what causes confusion. uses in other articles must remain consistent, or at least close, with its title. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 20:03, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
    How long is this poll going to remain open? Because if it has gone on for a while and no activity, I am inclined to make my decision. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 20:12, 18 December 2006 (UTC) (admin)
    It's been six days. I think we've reached the limit of actual voting. By all means. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 20:17, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
    Closed and moved. Now, please, leave this issue alone for my health. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 22:04, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

Add any additional comments

  • WP:MOS-JA "An English loan word or place name with a Japanese origin should be used in its most commonly used English form"
Use the common English form for all Japanese loan words: ミスター・サタン (Misutā Satan) is a loan word, specifically it's "Mister Satan". "Hercule" is neither a loan word, nor Japanese.
  • WP:Anime#Sections "Characters should be called what the series officially states their romaji names as."
A character's "official romanji name" would be what the original production company writes it as (which would be "Mister or Mr. Satan"). If such is not available from the production company, then using a recent, popular English distribution company would be acceptable (which in this case would be "Mister or Mr. Satan" as well).
"If that does not exist, use what they are named in the most recent or popular English translation, if it exists, isn't egregiously bad, and is the generally-used name (a google test is appropriate here)."
If we had no translations for the Japanese script available (either from the production company or any English distribution company) then we would use a name translation (more commonly refered to as a "dub name"). So, if we went back in time to 1997 (and completely ignored Japan), we'd use "Hercule".
"Otherwise, use a literal transliteration."
Which would be "Mister or Mr. Satan".
  • "Hercule" is not more common than "Mr. Satan". The only proof I can think of is a Google test, which "Satan" handily wins. [26] a search for both "mr" and "satan" return
--DesireCampbell 20:31, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Okay... That method is flawed because it picks up non-English pages - This is what happens when English is specified.
http://www.google.com/search?lr=lang_en&cr=&q=Hercule+%22Dragon+Ball%22+-wikipedia&hl=en&safe=off&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8 = 37,000 for Hercule "Dragon Ball" -Wikipedia
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=lang_en&safe=off&q=%22Mr.+Satan%22+%22Dragon+Ball%22+-wikipedia&btnG=Search&lr=lang_en = 13,800 for "Mr. Satan" "Dragon Ball" -Wikipedia

WhisperToMe 23:13, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and try it with "Mister Satan" and the page gets a measly 19 hits WhisperToMe 23:20, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Op! That's very true. I hadn't thought of disregarding Wikipedia from the search, or excluding non-English web pages. Thank you for pointing that out. Should we exclude "old" web pages as well? How about this?

"Mr. Satan" without reference to "Hercule", not on en.eikipedia.org, updated in the last 3 months

11,200 [27]

"Mister Satan" without reference to "Hercule", not on en.eikipedia.org, updated in the last 3 months

79 [28]

"Satan" without reference to "Hercule", not on en.eikipedia.org, updated in the last 3 months

103,000 [29]

"Hercule" without reference to "satan", not on en.eikipedia.org, updated in the last 3 months

41,200 [30]

So, Hercule does seem more common. But, these searches intrigue me as well. [31] a search for "mr" and "satan" (outside of en.wikipedia.org, not including "hercule") gets almost 50,000 pages. Thoughts?--DesireCampbell 08:18, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

For those that continuously tout WP:NAME, perhaps you would like to read this exert:

"If you wish to propose a new naming convention, do so on Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions, and also explain the proposal at Requests for comment and the Village Pump, as well as at any related pages. Once a strong consensus has formed, it can be adopted as a naming convention and listed below."

And below that we see: Japanese: See: Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Japan-related articles)

Which tells us:

  • "An English loan word or place name with a Japanese origin should be used in its most commonly used English form"

I contest the use of WP:NAME over a more specific guideline dealing with the topic. It seems strange that one would ignore these specific guidelines. --DesireCampbell 08:18, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Policy trumps guideline. Get that straight. Furthermore, you're misusing loan word. Learn what it means first. Mr. Satan is not some adapted English word, it's a character name. You want WP:MOS-JP#Names which states to use the English trade name, which is Hercule. Don't quote the first section of the guideline again, because it does not apply to this situation. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 08:35, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
If policy contests guidelines, policy > guidelines, as Someguy said. --Deskana talk 16:26, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I find it hilarious that we have this fight when Hercule originates from the French dub, and the French article uses the correct name with a note on the dub change. For any that don't know, Piccolo's french name was Satan (I suppose figuring it to be an accurate intepretation for the evil reflection of God/Kami). Piccolo Ma Junior became Satan Petit. So when they got to the Cell Saga, they couldn't re-use the name, so they drummed up Hercule for Mr. Satan, which was borrowed in America to avoid ticking off censors. Onikage725

Request for getting some outside assistance

Okay. This is getting ridiculous. We're just running around in circles. Clearly, there's a camp that is for the "common" name and a camp that is for the "correct" name and we may never agree on which it should be. And frankly, I think it's time to stop arguing. We're not building anything even remotely like a consensus and I'm quite upset over the vote-stacking that is going on.

What do we all have in common? We all want to improve Wikipedia. No one here is voting one way or another in bad faith. The only difficulty is that we don't agree on what the best way for this article to be.

I'd like to float an idea. One suggestion would be to make a request (neutrally worded) on the Talk pages of WP:NAME and WP:MOS-JP, asking for assistance in understanding what the best and most Wikipedia outcome to this would be. A second suggestion, would be Wikipedia:Requests for mediation. What I'm most afraid of is having these debates forever, which is taking all of our time away from improving Wikipedia in other areas. We can go back and forth with move requests until kingdom come. JRP 17:50, 15 December 2006 (UTC)


I agree. There's seems to be a definite polarization here. Noone is 'debating' are 'discussing', people are simply jockeying for position, and trying to "win". This kind of action ensures that we "lose". And not just us, but everyone who visits the article.
On another note. I'd like to know why there's a distinct avoidance from everyone (except me) to the WP:Anime Project? It seems like a legitimate Wiki Project, and it's guidelines should be looked at as well. Could someone post a similar request on the WP:Anime talk page? --DesireCampbell 12:17, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Heh, I completely missed everything the last few days. Well, I suppose if someone had told me the topic was up again it would have just been more "vote stacking." For the record, and in Powerlevels defense, I personally am smart enough to not be influenced in an opinion by someone using the word "censored." If that = biased (and isn't a bias basically ignoring facts in favor of one's own view - cuz newsflash but FUNi and Viz acknowledge it as an issue of censorship, hence Mr. Satan in the uncut dub and the stage name joke with the footnote in the manga), then this debate will probably go on forever. So...outside help would probably be prudent. Onikage725 16:01, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

How about this:

There has been considerable debate on the topic of what a Dragon Ball character should be named. There are well over a dozen Wikipedians who have continuously failed top come to a consensus, and now seek outside help.

This character is introduced late in the series, but takes on an increasingly prominent role as the series progresses. The two names being discussed are: Hercule and Mister Satan.

Mister Satan is the character's name in the original (Japanese) versions of both the anime and manga, and is the name given to the character by Akira Toriyama. Not that "Mr. Satan" is a translation of his name, but his name is pronounced ミスター・サタン (Misutā Satan) as if in English. His name is written out, in English, as "SATAN" on signs and banners in the series, as well as his car (as seen in late-series eye-catches). The city he lives in is "Satan City", and his daughter is "Videl" (her name an anagram of "devil").

"Mr. Satan" is used in the Funimation (by far the most common English distributor) "un-cut" English dub that is used on it's dual-language DVD releases. "Mr. Satan" is the name used in the Japanese-translated subtitles on Funimation's dual-audio DVD releases. These subtitles are based solely on the Japanese script, differing from the English dub on many points including names (the dub "Krillin" becomes "Kuririn", "Tien" becomes "Tenshinhan", etc.)

Hercule is derived from "Hercules" (the Greek mythological character) which was the name given to the same character in the French dub. The name "Hercule" is an obvious, and admitted, self-censorship as the name "Satan" has much stronger negative connotations for an American audience than a Japanese one. (This rationale was presumably financial. Parents would not, likely, purchase a "Satan" action figure for their children or a video game that featured "Satan" as a major protagonist.)

"Hercule" is the name given to the character in the initial "cut" Funimation English dub, which aired on Cartoon Network, but is now out-of-print. "Hercule" is also used in most English language versions of modern (year 2000 and onward) Dragon Ball video games and licensed products. "Hercule" is used in the censored English version of the Dragon Ball manga as translated by Viz, though they keep a footnote alleging that Mr. Satan is the character's "stage name", and that Hercule is his "real name". It should be made clear, though, that such information comes entirely from Viz, and not the original script.

It should be noted that all of the name changes were done soley on the accord of those handling the respective adaptions, and that such changes have never been commented on by (Dragon Ball author) Akira Toriyama, or any Japanese source, nor are they used in Japanese media.

"Hercule" is almost certainly more commonly known than "Mister Satan", as a Google Test for each (excluding the other, excluding wikipedia.org, only English websites, and the terms 'dragon ball z' added) garners 53,000 hits (for "Hercule" [32]) and 11,000 hits (for "Mr Satan" [33]) Many fans familiar only with the series on Cartoon Network or from video games, may not be aware of the Mr. Satan name.

The case boils down to whether to use an older, more common name, or a more modern, correct name. The Wikipedians currently involved are becoming polarized and are in danger of simply bickering instead of debating. You opinions on the matter would be greatly appreciated.

How's that? If anyone has anything to add (or subtract) please do so. Once it seems as if the proposed question is "NPOV" please post it to:

I'd do it myself, but I'll be away for a few weeks.

To answer a few possible questions if I am not here to answer:
I feel the proposed question should contain all the necessary information about the character. It's important for those we ask advice from to know as much about the situation as possible without having to re-read pages of "discussion" on the matter.

--DesireCampbell 00:51, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm making some slight modifications, but please feel free to critique these.
  • Removing as well as airing on Cartoon Network and the "Funimation Channel", from the Mr. Satan side. As far as I am aware, CN and FC both only show the dub with the Hercule name, so this line is misleading. Let me know if I am incorrect.
    • You're half-correct. Cartoon Network doesn't show much DBZ, but when it does it used the 'uncut' dub as far as I'm aware. I know that last month they showed two DBZ movies (12 and 13), both of which are only 'uncut' (and in Movie 12 Mr. Satan appears, and is referred to as such, I believe - I'll go check to be sure). And I'm almost certain the Funimation channal uses the uncut dub - but, I could very well be wrong, so I'll check that too. --DesireCampbell 02:28, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Better explanation for the censorship.
  • Other little changes.

Let me know if this is okay. JRP 01:32, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm just now popping in on this whole debate, but I personally think it's important to stress that Mr. Satan was the name given by the original author, and that all of the subsequent name changes were done soley of the accord of those handling the respective dubs, without any input from the original sources.
For example, I think that "...though they (Viz) keep a footnote saying that Mr. Satan is the character's "stage name", and that Hercule is his "real name".", is misleading, because there is no indication that their claim didn't extend beyond their own adaption, which we all know it didn't.
Go ahead and let me know if you disagree with these changes.

Blastero 07:39 PM, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree, the name Mr. Satan is the accurate representation of the character based on the author's work. Whilst most people who watch the anime casually will know him as Hercule there's nothing that a single line of explaination couldn't fix. Masterchief vegeta 11:35, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Good point. I put "real name" and "stage name" in quotes, but perhaps that's not clear enough. Perhaps we should dispense entirely with trying to make the essay "look good" and simply explain everything. Thus, I added "It should be made clear, though, that such information comes entirely from Viz, and not the original script." as well.

I may not be back for a few weeks, but if I return in a few hours and there's no change to the proposed request I will go ahead and post it. --DesireCampbell 13:42, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Changed a bit more, reworded the 'neither confirmed nor denied' part to 'never commented on'. Saying 'confirmed nor denied' makes it seem like Toriyama or anyone from Japan has ever heard of "Hercule", which is almost certainly not the case.
I'll wait a bit longer to post the message, incase there's some problem with its current standing. --DesireCampbell 17:15, 18 December 2006 (UTC)


Well, I guess an admin came in and moved the page anyway. I'm happy with the result, but I'll archive this 'message' personally in case the issue comes up again.--DesireCampbell 01:14, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

That would be me. I was watching this page for the lastest pollings, but I did not want to comment on anything. I do apologize for making the wrong move the first time, but hopefully, it should be fixed now. But, there are still some double redirects that needs to be fixed badly, so if you guys can run AutoWikiBrowser or something to that effect to change the links, that would be great. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 03:44, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
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