Talk:Munchkin cat/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions about Munchkin cat. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Picture

It's just a suggestion, but I think that this page could have a better picture. The current picture is not very good for showing exactly what the breed looks like, and I personally think that a much better picture could be found. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.233.155.165 (talk) 00:04, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree. The two photos included in this article show fluffy, apparently immature cats sitting down. Only their front legs are visible and the fluffiness of their fur prevents a clear view. We need a good standing side view of the cat. If I find one, I'll add it to the article. --Lance E Sloan (talk) 13:11, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Dominant vs. recessive

Because the munchkin gene is a dominant one, approximately half the kittens with a munchkin parent will be 'standard' munchkins. The remainder have normal length legs, but they can be used to pass the gene on to the next generation. The Non-standards (tall) do not carry the dwarf gene. Munchkinlancattery@yahoo.com

Now, admittedly it's a long time since I did biology, but if the gene is dominant, doesn't that mean it's impossible for a cat to have the gene without expressing the trait? So how can cats with normal legs pass on the gene? Evercat 02:31, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

It could be that the gene is tied to several other genes - i.e, you can't hace the short legs unless you also have, say, short hair and tabby patterns. But I don't actually know anything about cat genetics, so don't quote me on that. It's an intresting question, though. Is there someone we can take this to? Ductape Daredevil 23:38, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

They don't pass on the trait. Here is a link for more info on munchkin cat genetics ( http://www.arbbs.net/~pfsstcat/mk_genetics.html ) --Renwick

As far as the recessive/dominance question, it appears to have been corrected. A kitten that does not demonstrate the short legged trait cannot pass the trait on to its kittens. Solveig Pflueger, a geneticist associated with TICA has been working for years to attempt isolation of a homozygous munchkin with no success. —This unsigned comment was added by 64.122.55.32 (talk • contribs) 17:03, 16 March 2006.

I've fixed this problem, and added a couple of nifty little Punnett squares to facilitate understanding for people who, like myself, find diagrams easier to understand than written explanations. --Icarus 06:44, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Origin

I read a newspaper article years ago that attributed the munchkin breed to cat owners in pre-war Germany. It was a small breed, and after the war there were fewer than 350(?) of them left. Due to the low genetic variation the cat breed remained small and they were expensive cats (at least the article cited breeding fees as several thousand dollars). I thought that the munchkin phenotype could be half-expressed (short front legs), but I don't remember specifically if the article made mention of this.—This unsigned comment was added by 128.12.20.126 (talk • contribs) 20:28, 11 November 2005.

I seem to recall reading that a similar breed was developed in the 20s, but that it was lost - the modern Munchkin has no connexion with it. --86.135.179.53 05:23, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

The munchkin mutation has occured several times in history although the previous generations died out during World War II ( http://www.munchkin.net/faq.html )--Renwick

I am a former breeder of munchkin cats and would like to add to this discussion. While the genetics for the breed were previously expressed in Europe, no breeders managed to maintain the breeding stock and those programs did not succeed. All contemporary munchkins that are recognized by feline registries can trace their roots back to Blackberry.—This unsigned comment was added by 64.122.55.32 (talk • contribs) 17:03, 16 March 2006.

How can this be a breed?

I believe that the article as currently written contradicts itself and other articles in Wikipedia. How can Munchkins be a breed, if the definition of a breed is that it be "true breeding," that is, if two of the breed mate, they produce only that breed as offspring. The Punnett squares (and small litter size) suggests that 25% of offspring are non-viable due to gene lethality, and 25% are born completely normal. I'm not sure how you can argue that Munchkins-which appear to have a propensity for "hollow chest" and "saddle-back"-are a breed if they are not true breeding...
I do see that some websites call them a breed, but I don't think that justifies using the term breed without qualification in the lead paragraph. I recommend a phrasing such as "A munchkin cat, recognised as a breed by XYZ, is characterized by..." or refer to munchkins as a "type of cat, recognised as a breed by XYZ and characterised by..." I believe that would be a better compromise, as munchkins are unquestionably a "type" of cat, and it immediately shows that some do view the cat as a breed. - 142.167.85.137 (talk) 06:14, 25 January 2010 (UTC) == User:BalthCat, logged out.

I've tweaked the wording a little. By definition, Munchkins can be both short-legged(known as standard munchkin) and normal legged(non-standard munchkin), and by that definition, they breed true.--Dodo bird (talk) 02:20, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

If this can help : The Manx cat is considered a breed. It is also a dominant mutation and thus dosen't breed true. Two copies of the dominant no tail Manx gene is also lethal in-utero, just as the munchkin gene. The most hostile people against this munchkin breed didn't wait for any information to claim health problems and mobility problems. They just decided it had to be so because they didn't like it. Some even refused to reconsider when proven wrong as munchkin cats grew older without problems. Correjon (talk) 15:29, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

turns out.

freaky cat people have bad grammar:

"Munchkins are also very a very smart cat breed."

You're welcome, freaky cat people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.45.166.141 (talk) 22:42, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Genetics and Breeder Ethics

It seems that the health issues with this breed/mutation are important, but when you get articles on the web saying "This is such an awesome breed! you need one!" the breeders start revving up their engines so to speak.

The problem here is our friend the Punnett square. The aforementioned Munchkin-Munchkin breeding: 25% chance of lethal genetics, 25% chance of normal genetics, and 50% chance of desired traits. As well as the Normal-Munchkin breeding: 50% normal, 50% desired traits.

Which means that breeders trying to breed for this mutation will, at best, on average have 1 undesirable cat for every two desirable cats(due to the statement Homozyous embryos do not develop in the womb.) The real problem is that it may lead to the undesirable one being put down or released into the wild. Though similar issues exist with breeders and actual breeds, the rate of failure may be much higher just by genetics. I would hazard to say this might be something worth putting in the article in a way that conforms to Wiki guidelines:

“

Due to this cat being a genetic mutation and not an actual breed, any breeders would be breeding litters on average 1 undesirable for every two desirable munchkin cats at best and at worst a ratio of 1 to 1.

Unscrupulous breeders may put down the undesired cats or release them into the wild rather than try to find homes for them. This may pose a moral conundrum for perspective pet owners.

”

Thraxarious (talk) 17:33, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Flat/tight chest

“

There are genetic problems in the MKs that have not been discussed openly. They do have a number of flat chests/ tight chests, ending in the eventual death of the kittens because [...] the ribs don't allow sufficient growth for the heart and lungs. I've had a few of these, some survive, some dont. It would appear, from my statistics, that you can not eliminate it through selective breeding.

”

It's from a comment in an online discussion group, written by Terri Harris, who is currently the Chairperson on TICA's Munchkin breed committee and also the President of the Dwarf Cat Association. Can we use this as a primary source? --Dodo bird (talk) 10:15, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Very Basic Question: How well can they groom themselves?

Looks like they can't reach their own ears, for example. Does this mean the owner must bathe the cats very frequently or that it is usual to have more than one so that they can groom each other?--Jrm2007 (talk) 06:23, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Munchkin cat/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

The "Ancient Egyptian scripts.............translated in to “short legged goddess”..........." sounds like a load of horseshit. 76.30.215.242 (talk) 16:02, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Last edited at 21:41, 4 June 2014 (UTC). Substituted at 00:37, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

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Proposed Solution?

I agree that the fact this breed/mutation is controversial should be stated in the article. However I do not believe the article should take a position on that issue, as the above contributor does, and I don't agree at all with the 'weasel words' assessment. His comments themselves show a clear bias. It should be evident that most traits that are bred into domestic pet breeds would be most unhelpful to their feral counterparts - the 'evolutionary' logic above makes no sense in the context of domestic pet breeding. I do not believe it has been shown that the heterozygous munchkin cats currently being bred have a compromised quality of life. (On the other hand I don't know a single pug (canine) that can breathe properly...)

I suggest that the sentence which upsets Neale should be paired with a counter-statement acknowledging the controversy. For instance "The Munchkin cat variety is the subject of controversy among cat fanciers. Some, including the British Cat Fanciers' Association, maintain that it is an unhealthy mutation; while fanciers who keep the variety as pets have reported that they are extremely agile, active, and fast runners." cheers - BillH

Hello BillH,

Let me clarify my position a bit. I've never kept these cats, though I like cats a great deal, particularly oriental cats. As a zoologist, I also happen to understand how animal locomotion works. Speed depends on stride length. The longer the stride, the further between steps and the faster the animal moves. [1] Likewise, agility comes from both the length of the limb and the strength of the muscles, since climbing is about using levels to develop the power to pull the animal against gravity and up a tree (or whatever). Hence every single fast animal has long legs (deer, horse, cheetah) and every single agile animal has long limbs (monkey, squirrel). Evolution "knows" what is doing here, and I'd put my money on evolution above cat breeders...

This isn't to say Munchkin cats cannot be quite fast or agile, but they cannot be as fast and agile as regular cats. Simple laws of physics here. If by some miracles Munchkin breeders have not only halved the length of the bones but also doubled the strength of the muscles, so that the legs can move twice as fast, then perhaps there may be equivalence, but if not, then without scientific evidence to the contrary, I just don't believe Munchkin cats equal regular cats in terms of speed or agility.

As you say, numerous dog breeds are worse, and in the field I write professionally within, fishkeeping, there are varieties of fish that have been bred to very extreme and dibilitating degrees. Trying to rank what's "worse" is difficult. So while yes, I don't like the Munchkin breed particularly and assume that it is an inferior sort of animal in the ways listed above, I feel sure that they are much loved and happy animals.

There's no getting away from the fact this breed is controversial, and my point about weasel words was that by only telling half the story (that is isn't recognised) without saying why (perceived animal abuse) the article was side-stepping the issue.

Cheers, Neale

Physics also indicates that animals with a lower center of gravity will have better balance, which may lead them to be more agile and/or better jumpers. The fastest runners in the human world are not those with the longest limbs. Maurice Green, who held (still holds?) the 100m record is only about 5-9. Marathons are routinely won by east african runners who are well under six feet in height.

Arguing that leg length is the sole determiner of agility, jumping, or speed is, IMHO, ridiculous on it's face.

None of that has to do with the actual health benefits or detriments of short-leggedness in cats, however.

Falcomadol 20:58, 13 March 2007 (UTC)