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Map edits (June)

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It's the end of the month, therefore it's time to update the map. Cheers y'all!

Nitpicks and suggestions:

  • Mohnyin is not disputed
  • I believe that small villages shouldn't be included on the map because of how minor they are
  • Should the Chin Council and Chin Brotherhood be shown as seperate entities (considering they're kinda enemies and don't like each other)? It can confuse people if, on the map, enemies are shown as the same colour.

Indisputable Edits:

Disputable Edits:

Very Disputable Edits: (needs more research or has articles disputing it, but good to note)

IdioticAnarchist (talk) 19:16, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What do you mean by small villages? Right now the standard that the base map uses and that I've modified is- township capitals are shown. Smaller villagers are shown if particularly relevant to the specific update (e.g. Chinshwehaw when it was taken, Dotphonenyan when it was taken, etc.); i don't remove those dots but will remove the labelled name to reduce clutter. EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 21:21, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
By "small villages" I was specifically talking about Somra and possibly Moe Bye. I just think that the map should only include larger, more important settlements (towns and higher). Of course, that is just my opinion. Also, I was under the impression that Chinshwehaw and Dotphonenyan were towns? Google says they are. IdioticAnarchist (talk) 21:32, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
They are but not township capitals. Mobye is a village but it used to be the capital of the relatively large historical Karenni state iirc- It's also three times larger than Pekon, the township capital so tbh I'm always surprised when I remember that it's not even a town, much less having its own township. EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 00:14, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wow, I did not know any of that! That's good to know! It does seem a bit strange that it isn't "Moebye Township". IdioticAnarchist (talk) 02:06, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So @IdioticAnarchist, looks like @Borysk5 updated the map using Thomas. I will go through it later tonight based on this discussion here and edit it, since there's definitely a lot of unsourced things that Thomas just map-painted (like half of Ann Township falling? No source on that besides a presence Taungup-Pandaung road, which got removed for some reason).
My question here is: I agree that Chin Council and Chin Brotherhood should be shown as seperate entities, but there's very little sources on the exact control- some villages reported as one or the other but not much on the frontlines or control outside those villages. I do see what you mean though, random villages like Camp Victoria don't need to be on the map. EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 19:22, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Honestly, I was planning on mentioning that when I woke up, but it appears you beat me to it (I just woke up). Thomas Van Linge, while helpful, can make some...outlandish claims in his maps (usually with no evidence). Like you said with Ann Township, or the supposed "gains" made by the SSPP and the RCSS. I've tried to call him out a few times for this on his Twitter, but he never responds. So, to @Borysk5, while your edits are well-appreciated and in good faith, it's far more constructive to make edits which have credible sources backing them up. If a map change has no source backing it up, don't add it.
Anyway, I'm also unsure on the CC and CB, perhaps we can use the "Stakeholders" map on the Chinland page? I think that's kinda the best we got. I can look around for some other maps, but it likely won't lead to much. IdioticAnarchist (talk) 20:00, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, sure. As for Chinland, when you look what names are mentioned for captured of Chin cities, it looks roughly like this. Borysk5 (talk) 20:35, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Could you perhaps send the image in a different way, I cannot see it? IdioticAnarchist (talk) 22:18, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I can use this and WP:AGF that you checked the sources. Thanks! EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 23:21, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know if the source directly states that Hsi Hseng town is under the control of the SAC - it could be referring to the township, and I haven't seen anything else that indicates the town was successfully retaken by the junta.
Also, you should put this information on the towns' respective pages so that the detailed map can be updated (please im desperate). CrazyMagicPickle (talk) 20:48, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've done the update now-
The source for Mongmit doesn't say it's cut off. I moved the TNLA frontline to capture areas where the bases mentioned in that article are.
Divided Chin into three groups, kept them similar but let me know if you don't like the colours for accessibility etc. I made Arakan's cities a bit darker for that reason.
Hsihseng is indeed not taken, the article says they arrived at a junction on the Hsihseng-Loikaw road, so it's actually great junta control in Karenni. EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 03:07, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I, like usual (I'm admittedly quite stubborn), have a few nitpicks:
Of course, don't take any of this personally. You did an amazing job on the map (like always), I just nitpick very small things which I don't see as right. Good job on the map! IdioticAnarchist (talk) 04:57, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed see upload on imgur while I wait for some responses [1]
IdioticAnarchist (talk) 20:20, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for that! I've pushed the new update out, including Lashio. Expanded NDA-K to include Kanpikeit and gave KIA Hpare- I was confused because Hpare wasn't actually in that KIA blob in last month's map; probably my own oversight.
Thandwe Airport isn't in the city limits, Google Earth highlights the township. It's in Ziphyukyun village tract according to the GAD https://themimu.info/sites/themimu.info/files/documents/TspProfiles_GAD_Thandwe_2019_MMR.pdf (page 13). EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 23:19, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The source doesn't seem to state that Kyiakdon was captured - just that a junta outpost was taken. I'm not sure if that's enough to ascribe control of the entire town to the KNLA. CrazyMagicPickle (talk) 05:57, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Junta has also lost control of Kyaikdon Sub-township" IdioticAnarchist (talk) 06:12, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, that doesnt say the town was taken- lost control of the subtownship could mean many things- looks like this is specifically about enforcing conscription EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 07:22, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thandwe was apparently seized by the Arakha army UnJapóLliure (talk) 10:44, 25 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I believe the Irrawaddy reported on it, please correct me 😅 UnJapóLliure (talk) 10:45, 25 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That is correct, Thandwe has been captured. You can add it to the map if you'd like. I usually give these map edits monthly, so they'll be added to the map probably by next week. IdioticAnarchist (talk) 18:27, 25 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Btw with so many different factions currently on map I wonder if it wouldn't be better to just directly embed faction names on the map like I did in File:War in Central African Republic.svg instead of using legend. Borysk5 (talk) 04:21, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, that kind of key would make it very useful. I can work on adding it, but I also want to update the colours being used- since PDF is usually depicted as red with junta as green within burma; those should really get flipped IMO. Most likely I won't be able to get those making this until next week- so feel free to add a key if you want EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 12:15, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I feel like a key similar to the ones Thomas Van Linge uses (a key at the side listing the different groups and their colours) would be helpful. I don't mean to be rude, the embedding faction names directly onto their territory isn't aesthetically pleasing, and also it doesn't show the full extent of who controls what. That's why I added all the little footnotes on the infobox key. IdioticAnarchist (talk) 19:56, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agree, I find the names of the combatant groups quite bad looking on the map, I think the best option would be putting a legend inside the map (in a corner of it possibly) but I have no idea how to do it or if it's possible to do it. Wikidoge04 (talk) 01:35, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
My main concern is, with so many similar colors trying to find a group on the map especially for people with limited color vision may be challenging. We could do it differently, like having Anne's outside the map and connecting them by lines or smth similar. Borysk5 (talk) 05:49, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think similar to the CAR map, callout names outside the borders would be good- especially with a few disconnected entities making colour harder to use EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 12:25, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe we could, instead of putting names over the EAO's, put numbers. Then we can have a key at the bottom saying what number is what entity. IdioticAnarchist (talk) 19:37, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

UWSA and SSA-N moving to stop rebel advance on Laisho

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As of now, these two armed groups are not allied the junta, but are moving to contain the MNDAA and the TNLA, with their claimed motives to protect their sphere of influence and to protect civilians.

https://apnews.com/article/myanmar-conflict-wa-shan-militia-lashio-kokang-c3d35e0dc24b04fbb960f1afd3084af5 LordOfWalruses (talk) 15:45, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Map edits (July)

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Yet another month has passed (an eventful month at that)! Honestly, I did not think that MNDAA forces had the ability to capture Lashio, and it sure is a historic defeat for the Tatmadaw!

Nitpicks and suggestions:

Indisputable edits:

Disputable Edits:

Very Disputable Edits: (needs more research or has articles disputing it, but good to note)

IdioticAnarchist (talk) 02:00, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks again for all these! I think UWSA left Lashio almost immediately though. Apparently took some hospital staff. My source is two telegram channels unfortunately inadmissable for wikipedia. EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 15:47, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A little update: it appears as though TNLA forces captured the final junta base near Mongmit, capturing the township. https://bur.mizzima.com/2024/07/31/28833
And Inle Lake base captured by PDF (And PNA in Nyaungshwe township) https://www.irrawaddy.com/news/war-against-the-junta/anti-regime-groups-seize-myanmar-junta-positions-in-southern-shan-state.html
Also I'm unsure on the exact situation with the UWSA in Lashio, but I haven't heard any news that they've left yet. IdioticAnarchist (talk) 23:46, 31 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As for UWSA in Lashio, they don't control their external office anymore, there's video on Chinese social media showing MNDAA fighters around damaged office. UWSA forces in Lashio were only geolocated in the southwestern part of the town (see: File:LashioBattle.svg). Borysk5 (talk) 05:39, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The UWSA's deployment isn't very important from a territorial perspective, imho. It's definitely important to analyze the Wa State's evolving role in the war, but I doubt it's worthy of being referenced on a map primarily showing military operations and control. CrazyMagicPickle (talk) 15:50, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Some extra updates:
For Lailenpi, I'd argue the AA is acting more as a benefactor and supporter to the CB, so I'd say that you can show it as soley CB controlled. CrazyMagicPickle (talk) 15:42, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The source stated "MDF-AA advance", and implies that both the MDF and AA occupied the town together, although it does state that only the MDF participated in clearance operations, so I don't know. I'd agree with you that it can probably be shown as pure CB control IdioticAnarchist (talk) 17:38, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Has anybody found any more information about the NDAA entering Mong Yawng? The only source I've seen is this one in Burmese https://burmese.shannews.org/archives/42964, and it's unclear about the actual situation inside the city. CrazyMagicPickle (talk) 16:10, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There's practically no news on the situation in Mongyawng. Like I said, I've seen claims that it was just a small group of soldiers looking for recruits who stumbled in and quickly left, and considering how no one's talking about it I'd be inclined to believe that. IdioticAnarchist (talk) 17:06, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Changes implemented!
Pretty much ignored all changes from the 25 July Map as no sources were mentioned and focused on your list- most of it overlaps anyways
  • Updated the Muse area based on that initial article,
  • Added an area around Lailenpi for CB to connect with AA - but really no source on this so its contestable
  • The springmonitor Wa borders conflict with the SSPP controlling Mongyai- I've edited the southwestern borders to reflect this; better sources can contest this
  • For Payathonzu I think it indicates at least that there's less military presence in the area surrounding- which I've added.
  • For Mongyawng, I've moved the NDAA control towards it for now given the lack of information
  • No clue really what "controls most of Thandwe Township" means so I only increased some of the splotches of AA control around Thandwe
EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 23:15, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Great map as usual! I, also like usual, have some additions.
  • Thandwe town captured (and, I'd say that maps like Myanmar War Map or Thomas Van Linge's, which shows most of Ann/Taungup Township as AA control to be accurate) https://www.bnionline.net/en/news/current-situation-thandwe-town-following-aa-control
  • The Springmonitor source (Wa's the big deal?) does show SSPP control over Mongyai. Also, what's with that additional UWSA control south of Mongyai? Also, the Irrawaddy Wa source states that Wa doesn't control Matman ("Matman is overseen by the Myanmar military’s Triangle Region Command and has not been discussed by the two sides.")
  • What's that contested area west of Thantlang?
  • Why do colours like the Lailenpi and Manhero areas overlap with the national borders?
  • I plan on listing the Myanmar War Map sources soon, maybe with next month's list.
Like I said: great map! IdioticAnarchist (talk) 00:44, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ah I missed the Thandwe capture and that extra town west of thantlang was a mistake. I just completely misinterpreted the map in the UWSA/SSPP source. I've fixed these now
Re: Matman, I'm think those borders might have come from the NDAA Wa South report from very early on in making the base map. I'm going to see if there's a better map or more sources on that expanded Wa control beyond their de jure borders EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 02:38, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, but Thandwe town's capture still isn't shown IdioticAnarchist (talk) 19:45, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

About Taungoo

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Burmese here, and I think Taungoo is not in any sort of "Battle" Only in Laiketo There are small battles but I don't Think It isn't enough to have Toungoo displayed in the disputed square. 2400:AC40:627:31C0:1562:B6AD:54AE:B13F (talk) 05:11, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Taungoo isn't displayed as contested EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 21:58, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In the "click here for an accurate, up to date map" part, which is actually neither accurate or up to date... UnJapóLliure (talk) 11:03, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi! I think a lot of the cities shown as contested with the PDFs are in areas where there is significant guerrilla activity in those townships - unfortunately I haven't had the time to revert all of those cities to junta control. However, cities shown as under rebel control are accurate, and the sources can be found in the linked articles. CrazyMagicPickle (talk) 15:56, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We should add a map change time lapse

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Similar to the time-lapses on the article about Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, a timelapse of the map day-by-day of the Myanmar civil war would help significantly in understanding the power dynamics and the general military situation of the war. Even if we don’t have enough data to make a timelapse of the entire war, a timelapse of one year, one operation, or even one month would be very helpful in understanding the conflict. LordOfWalruses (talk) 01:43, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I do agree this could be very helpful. However, very few credible/good maps exist from before 2023 and Operation 1027. Most maps show ludicrous resistance holdings (I've seen several maps show the KIA controlling all of Kachin State, or CNA controlling Hakha in the early war) or very confusing overlapping territorial holdings. Good maps from pre-2021 are, to my knowledge, practically nonexistent. I don't have the skill nor ability to make a timelapse map, but I could help with research and dates, if someone does decide to make a map. IdioticAnarchist (talk) 07:06, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I made a video on the conflict: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8EPpUB6cUM, though it's obviously original research. Borysk5 (talk) 08:35, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Even if the map began right after Operation 1027, that would be fine; anything to show step-by-step gains from then to now is welcome (though shorter time-jumps are optimal). LordOfWalruses (talk) 19:25, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Suggested corrections of the 8 august update of the "Military situation as of 8 August 2024" map

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  • Thandwe and surroundings have been seized by the AA, Junta just holds the southernmost tip of Ngapali Beach and the Maung Shwe Lay Naval Base, both very south of the Thandwe Town.
  • ZRA doesn't hold any territory anymore in Chin State, they are entirely base in Aizawl State and effects some raids in Chinland State once in a while, but now they appear to have made peace.
  • TNLA have pushed already more south and west from Nawngkhio Town into Nawnghkio Township, reaching Shwe Mote Htaw and Wekwin
  • The road between Mogoke and Singu is entirely under PDF/TNLA control

Wikidoge04 (talk) 18:32, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have a source on the ZRA claim? Not disputing it, just wondering. CrazyMagicPickle (talk) 20:05, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Do you have a source for any of these- we can only add things to the map based on WP:RS per Wikipedia standards and policies. For Thandwe, I found enough for at least the town being taken- https://myanmar-now.org/en/news/myanmar-regime-bombards-rakhine-coastal-town-captured-by-aa/ EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 20:31, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
First of all thank you for updating Thandwe.
- About the Mogok-Singu road in the last few Mizzima daily reports about the war: The 148th Light Infantry Battalion (where the Mogok-Singu road and the Takaung-Singu roads connect) was seized by the PDF as reported there https://eng.mizzima.com/2024/08/12/12740 while the town of Zayat Kwin was taken as reported there https://eng.mizzima.com/2024/08/13/12776
- About the TNLA expansion southof Nawnghkio there are those articles by The Irrawaddy https://www.irrawaddy.com/news/war-against-the-junta/myanmar-junta-reinforcements-attacked-as-tnla-advances-in-northern-shan.html reporting fights as far as Shwe Mote Htaw and https://www.irrawaddy.com/news/burma/myanmar-junta-troops-cornered-in-two-northern-shan-townships.html reporting TNLA into Mat Man Taw and Tang Hkam.
- About the ZRA I have no direct sources but my claim comes from the lack of reports of the ZRA still being active in Chin State while in this Wikipedia arcticle it has been reported that in early August CNF and ZRA leaders met in Aizawl, at ZRA HQ to discuss cooperation and peace between Chin EAOs. Wikidoge04 (talk) 22:14, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
List of corrections made as of 8/12 update:
EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 19:01, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Worth noting it looks like the KIA has reached the Irrawaddy River from Mabein as well: https://burma.irrawaddy.com/article/2024/08/01/388043.html, https://yktnews.com/2024/07/175563/. Not a Burmese speaker so I don't feel confident putting these in articles anywhere, but if you wanted to check that out it could be helpful. CrazyMagicPickle (talk) 21:31, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah Tagaung was taken a few hours ago but waiting for wikipedia-acceptable news sources to show. The Khit Thit article says Tagaung was completely taken- but Khit Thit is famously fast and loose with facts. The Irrawaddy article mentions the capture of the Tagaung Neekel factory without much more elaboration on where the factory is. EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 13:38, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It does seem a little odd to me that Tagaung would fall so unceremoniously - you'd expect at least some reports of combat before the town falls. CrazyMagicPickle (talk) 16:26, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

New section split?

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I was going to make a big section overhaul (yet again) after doing some copyediting. For example, splitting at the start of Operation 1027 part 2. However, I think that splitting the 2024 section will just make things more confusing not to mention that analyses have not really been keeping up with the July and August news. The Rakhine offensive and the Chin infighting largely aren't being affected by Operation 1027 Part 2 like they were during the original Operation 1027.

It is really long and I will do some copyediting to pare it down more, but I think that the best solution for now is to move some of the details elsewhere. However, I'm just having difficulty deciding on what's relevant enough for this main article. From som perspectives, pretty much everything in the continued Chin offensive could go to Chin theater or all of the MNDAA/TNLA details to go into Operation 1027 Part 2.

I'm still open to the idea of splitting the entire article into 2021-2023 and 2023-present as suggested a while back. However, again, not that many sources. So just putting a Talk out here to hear more thoughts EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 21:22, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, something needs to be done about the timeline bloat. I'd suggest leaving the broad strokes (i.e. capture of Mogok and Lashio) in this article, but perhaps taking the majority(?) of the other details and moving it to the theater/offensive specific articles. It would be nice to have some sort of quality "Timeline of the Myanmar civil war" article, but the one that exists is sorely lacking and I'm not sure it could even be rescued at this point. CrazyMagicPickle (talk) 16:29, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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