Talk:Myles Moylan

Myles Moylan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myles_Moylan

An Irish regional newspaper called the Tuam Herald carried a report on 22nd July 1876 about Myles Moylan who had taken part in the Battle of the Little Bighorn - search Irishnewsarchives.com under Myles Moylan. I have a copy of the report but cannot share it here. His late brother John and some nephews who were still living in Tuam, Co Galway at the time, were mentioned. At this stage, he was only gone from Tuam for over twenty years so he would not have been forgotten. His father Thomas died in Tuam in 1858 and is buried locally. I'm not sure when his mother Margaret nee Reilly died but she was still alive in 1868.

Apart from the Tuam Herald report, I have found three records of his Irish birth:

Census return 1855 for West Newbury – Ireland. https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=4472&h=4067232&tid=&pid=&queryId=8043d68652f62795afd9bb2c6b7c1209&usePUB=true&_phsrc=pTu8951&_phstart=successSource

Enlistment form (1857) – Galway - https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=1198&h=454619&tid=&pid=&queryId=2aa27f794ef1efc315b13c61ccb783e2&usePUB=true&_phsrc=pTu8928&_phstart=successSource

Letter of acceptance of the commission of 2nd Lieutenant in 1863 - Ireland.https://armyatwoundedknee.com/2013/09/15/captain-myles-moylan-a-troop-7th-cavalry/

First off I want to thank you for making an account and using the talk page. Sorry for the initially harsh welcome. To explain a bit, one of the most common types of vandalism is changing of birth dates and places, so it causes a pretty strong reaction. Again, sorry for that. As for the sources, I don't have enough time to look through all of them right now, but I'll definitely take a look in the next day or so, and hopefully others will as well. I added a pretty strong source for his birthplace a bit earlier so it may take some time to hash this out. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:04, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

So I don't have access to the ancestry.co.uk sources, however what I do see in the third source you provided is The truth of his date and place of birth likely lies undiscovered in a birth or Christening record in Amesbury, Massachusetts, or Galway, Ireland. Perhaps the article should be discussing the issue with determining his birthplace, rather than stating either as fact? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:26, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

Was Myles Moylan born in Tuam, Co Galway or Amesbury MA.

In reply to my own question, I put forward the following to support the supposition that he was born in Tuam.

The 1855 census for West Newbury, MA cites Myles as a 19-year old shoemaker from Ireland and the three Hogan siblings with whom he is staying were from a place called Cummer outside Tuam.

His official June 8th 1857 Enlistment record cites Myles as a 20-year-old shoemaker from Galway with grey eyes, black hair, ruddy complexion and standing at 5'9.5" tall.

In a letter dated March 1863 which he wrote to accept his promotion to 2nd Lieutenant, Myles writes that he was born in Ireland. It was written before he was dismissed from service and re-enlisted under the alias Charles E Thomas, a clerk from Amesbury. I think this is when the confusion over his place of birth began. From here on in, Myles cites his place of birth as Amesbury, MA.

According to Tuam Cathedral records, Thomas Moylan and Margaret Reilly were married in Tuam, Co. Galway on 4th Dec 1814. Records for the births of their five eldest children exist: Patrick 1816 (emigrated to West Newbury), John 1818 (prominent businessman and Town Commissioner in Tuam. Check out his son Br Michael Titus on Wikipedia, 5th Superior General of the Christian Brothers), Thomas 1827 (West Newbury), Michael 1832 and Mary 1836 (Tuam). Unfortunately, there is no record of Myles's birth. Anybody who has Irish Ancestry will understand this. (Catholic) Church records only really begin in the 1800s - the Catholic Church was outlawed during the time of the Penal Laws and we only got Emancipation in 1829. Civil records only began in the mid-1860s. Myles's dad Thomas and brother John are buried in Claretuam Cemetery outside Tuam. I'm not sure about Margaret, who was still alive in Tuam in 1868. She doesn't feature on the headstone.

A Tuam Herald report dated July 22nd, 1876 - less than a month after the Battle of the Little Bighorn and about twenty years after Myles left Tuam - connects Myles with the son and grandchildren of Thomas Moylan and Margaret Reilly. The grandchildren are in their twenties and would have a memory of their uncle before he followed his older brothers to West Newbury.

I have official records to support all of the above and would be happy to share them if it was possible. I have posted some of them on the Victoria Cross Online Facebook page. BuffyO'B (talk) 13:31, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

BuffyO'B (talk) 14:10, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

Copied from The West Newbury Messenger, 21st Nov 1884.

Captain Miles Moylan has been spending a few days here with his brother Thomas Moylan. He is now stationed at Fort Meade Dakota, and is now enjoying a prolonged furlough. He has been in the regular army service since 1857 and was one of the personal friends of the late Gen. Custer.

Myles's brother Thomas was born in Tuam in 1829 and in 1846 he emigrated to West Newbury where he worked in one of the many comb factories. BuffyO'B (talk) 13:31, 3 May 2021 (UTC) BuffyO'B (talk) 07:13, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

I came across a report in The Evening Mail (Stockton, Calif) dated 29th April, 1901, page 2. A John Moylan from Stockton visited his cousin Myles Moylan of the United States Army.... retired with the rank of Brevet Major. The visit took place at Fort Leavenworth. "and you may be sure it was a cordial greeting for the reason that we had not seen each other for sixty years - since we parted on the land of our birth, dear old Ireland". BuffyO'B (talk) 07:57, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

BuffyO'B, are any of these sources available online for review? In newspaper archives or museum websites? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 10:47, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

1855 Census – Famlysearch.org is a free website. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-62YV-PR?i=27&cc=1459985

You have seen the 1862 letter of acceptance where he cites Ireland as his place of birth, but here it is again. It should open directly onto the letter. https://armyatwoundedknee.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/page-12.jpg

Marriage of Thomas Moylan and Margaret Reilly in Tuam: Page 169, 8th down on the left https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632077#page/169/mode/1up The births of all these children are there but it is too laborious to search for them. I use a more user-friendly subscription site, Rootsireland.ie. Patrick 9th Oct 1816, John 19th June 1818, Thomas 6th May 1827, Michael 22nd August 1832 and Mary 22nd August 1836.

The Evening Mail (Stockton, California) · 29 Apr 1901, Mon · Page 2. Newspapers.com:- subscription required but you can get a free trial for a week.

The 1857 Enlistment Record is available on Ancestry which I know is of no use to you, but I am trying to access it otherwise. It’s the original 1857 hand-written one.

The Tuam Herald article is available on Irishnewsarchives.com which requires a subscription but is free in libraries here.

The West Newbury Messenger article is available on MyHeritage.com – subscription required.

Thomas Moylan and John Moylan are father and brother of Myles. https://www.findagrave.com/cemetery/2430864/memorial-search?firstname=&middlename=&lastname=Moylan&cemeteryName=Claretuam+Cemetery&birthyear=&birthyearfilter=&deathyear=&deathyearfilter=&memorialid=&mcid=&linkedToName=&datefilter=&orderby=r BuffyO'B (talk) 16:32, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

BuffyO'B, I know this is taking some time, but I am trying to get access to these sources, and I've requested for other people to take a look at the sourcing. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:29, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

Neither Family Search or Find a Grave can be used as reliable sources. Find a Grave is effectively a Wiki, and is user generated, and Family Search relies on original research and user updated content. See WP:RS/P. And blogs are also generally not accepted as reliable sources, except in specific situations. Pulling information from registers is also generally considered Original Research. We need reliable sources talking about this. Ultimately all your arguments are your own original research, which is not admissible. See WP:OR. Canterbury Tail talk 18:34, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

I have offered you original records, granted through third party websites. I have offered an original 1857 Enlistment Record, an Original 1855 Census Return, an original Marriage record for Thomas and Margaret Reilly from the Parish of Tuam and a couple of contemporary newspaper reports. I could send you original records of the births of his five siblings,a record of Myles's father and brother on Griffiths Valuation, records of Myles's brothers in West Newbury.....

If anyone is on Facebook,I posted some of the records on the Victoria Cross Online page - search under Myles Moylan

There is very little else I can do to convince you. If the shoe was on the other foot could you offer me proof that he was born in Amesbury - with records pre-dating his dismissal in 1863? I could ask if you have a record for the 1857 Enlistment for your Myles. If he was born in Amesbury is there a marriage record for his parents or birth record for some of his siblings or a census record for his parents or for him in 1855? By the way, if you are ever in Tuam, I'll bring you out to Claretuam to see Thomas's headstone. Thanks for your time anyway. BuffyO'B (talk) 20:16, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

BuffyO'B, The issue is that we specifically don't use original records. We need secondary sources discussing something to work off of. If there is a book, for instance, that gives his birth place, we can use that. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:20, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

Am I missing something? I am trying to make an argument to convince you that Myles Moylan was born on The Mall in Tuam, Co. Galway rather than in Amesbury, MA. but I can't use primary sources. Is nothing on Wiki based on primary sources? That must be why it's not accepted as a source for academic articles here.

Myles's birthplace will be recorded as Tuam in the Journal of the Old Tuam Society in November. BuffyO'B (talk) 21:59, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

I have not seen it, but I believe Moylan is referenced in Myles Dungan, Distant Drums: Irish Soldiers in Foreign Armies (1993), which would be a reliable source. If someone could track that down, it would seem to settle the matter. I looked at online newspaper articles, and they seem to go in both directions. The Tuam Herald stated on May 4, 1996, that Moylan was a native of Tuam. On the other hand, articles after Moylan was wounded at Wounded Knee and expected to die (so the articles had obituary-like information) said that he was born in Massachusetts, see the Buffalo Weekly Express (Jan. 1, 1891); Boston Post (Dec. 31, 1890). There was also a nice piece about Moylan when he retired in 1892, see the Omaha Daily Bee (May 16, 1892), but unfortunately it did not mention his birthplace. John M Baker (talk) 23:24, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

I still cannot understand why his 1857 Enlistment Record with Galway as his birthplace cannot be accepted.

I think the 1996 Tuam Herald article that you mention used the 1876 Tuam Herald report of the Little Bighorn as its basis. That report claims that Myles was a brother to John who was a child of a Thomas Moylan and Margaret Reilly who lived on the Mall in Tuam. That's not acceptable proof either. Myles Dungan doesn't mention Moylan in his book. The book was used for background information.

The confusion over Myles's birthplace began in 1863 when he re-enlisted as Charles E Thomas from Amesbury, after being dismissed for being AWOL. From then onwards, his place of birth was recorded as Amesbury. The Evening Mail (Stockton, California), 29 Apr 1901, reports a meeting between himself and his cousin John Moylan - the last time they met was sixty years previously in their birthplace in dear old Ireland. The West Newbury Messenger, 21st Nov 1884 reports a meeting between Myles and his brother Thomas in West Newbury. Thomas Moylan, son of Thomas Moylan and Margaret Reilly from Tuam emigrated to West Newbury.

Will my article in THe Journal of the Old Tuam Society due to be published in November constitute a reliable source - http://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000237091? BuffyO'B (talk) 00:02, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for mentioning Galway as a possible place of birth.

As a matter of interest, the info re Enlistment was retrieved from U.S. Army Register of Enlistments, 1798-1914. The info re the Census Return that cites his place of birth as Ireland is from the Massachusetts U.S, State Census 1855. The surname was misspelt, check under Miles Moyland. Occupation is a shoemaker as cited on his Enlistment form.

I hope the Journal of the Old Tuam Society article will finally pin him to Tuam. Is it possible to change it on the other pages where Amesbury is mentioned as his place of birth? Thanks again. BuffyO'B (talk) 08:47, 6 May 2021 (UTC) BuffyO'B (talk) 08:37, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

According to the United States Army Medal of Honor Website, Myles Moylan was born in Ireland. Follow the link and scroll down to Moylan. BuffyO'B (talk) 18:50, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

I know the 1876 Tuam Herald article connecting Myles to Tuam was not acceptable on the grounds that there could have been two Myles Moylans - the Tuam one and the Amesbury one and I'm sure the same will be applied here. An article appeared in the Tuam Herald on 17th December 1994. Its title was “A Tuam Man at the Little Bighorn”. I’m just picking a few relevant bits out of the article: “The connection (to the Little Bighorn) is through Major Myles Moylan, a native of Tuam….”.

“I have traced the career of Major Myles Moylan of the US Army 1857 to 1893, who was born at Mall House, The Mall, Tuam circa 1839”.

“Moylan was a cousin of Conor O’Kelly, Claremorris (1873 – 1915) the first chairman of Mayo County Council, 1898 – 1908, MP for North Mayo 1900-1910, and secretary of the Irish Parliamentary Party 1905-1907. Moylan’s nephew was the exceptional Tuam born Brother Michael Titus Moylan, Superior General of the Christian Brothers, died 1906”. Brother Michael Titus was a son of John Moylan, Myles’s brother who was mentioned in the 1876 Tuam Herald article. John was the son of Thomas Moylan and Margaret Reilly and Br Michael Titus was their grandson – the paperwork is there.BuffyO'B (talk) 06:22, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

Myles Moylan's official 1857 Enlistment Record from Folds3.com. Place of birth is recorded as Galway. https://www.fold3.com/image/310825780?rec=299639757 BuffyO'B (talk) 19:49, 3 July 2021 (UTC)BuffyO'B (talk) 19:53, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

References

Lead

I'm of the mind that since he was involved in many battles, keeping only the blue-linked battles in the lead will keep it neater, and we can cover the rest in the article. Also, the sources are clear about what action led to his medal of honor, so there's no reason to make that less concise. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 10:46, 27 July 2022 (UTC)