Talk:Ned (Scottish)/Archive 1

Archive 1

Articles for Deletion debate

This article survived an Articles for Deletion debate. The discussion can be found here. -Splash^talk 21:35, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Sources

Someone's added a citation tag, and they have a point. There's bound to be quite a bit that can be sourced to Scottish newspapers. After all, this article is not about neds so much as the ned stereotype. You can argue all day about whether ned is a nebulous term, but a few Daily Record citations will no doubt prove that the stereotype is definite. Does anyone have access to proquest or athens to find such things? --Liquidindian 03:40, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

I've added references to the article, and removed the references tag (which I added). Cynical 15:32, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

I removed urban dictionary and another wikipedia article as sources. Wikipedia cannot reference itself as a source, and urban dictionary is not a reliable source. --Xyzzyplugh 09:40, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

'..of any race or background..'

I thought the word was used exclusively for white, working class young men. I thought its snobbish sense was why it and 'chav' had aroused so much comment...surely? Rentwa 19:18, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Coming from the east end of Glasgow, I would second that. Not to say that you can't get non-white juvenile delinquents, and not all white working class young men are "neds", but the word "ned" in Scotland is used to describe young white working-class jd's. Just leave the phrase relating to "of any race or background" out. Camillus (talk) 13:46, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Added white working class - I'm such a snob! Incidentally, I'm from NE England - I recall 'chaver' being used for 'child' about 20 years ago ( pron. 'chee - ay - fer' where I grew up). I also heard the term 'bezzer' being used for ned/chav. Rentwa 17:48, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Removal of original research

Diffs: [1] [2] [3] [4]

Much of the blatant nonsense, original research, and in one instance, potential libel, have been removed from this article. Please do not replace this material without providing reliable sources. Thanks, Can't sleep, clown will eat me 19:57, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Botellón

The reason I added a sentence about Botellón is because I spotted the photo from the top of this article at es:Botellón#Fenómenos en otros países. No need to reply, I don't feel strongly about. Edward 12:19, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Etymology

Another possibility is that it is a contraction of an older phrase 'ne'er do well' which suggests a person who will never make anything of his/her life.

Any source for this piece of creative invention or was it made up for this page? Flapdragon 20:23, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Deleted. Flapdragon 00:11, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

The article uses the term Sengas - I presume this is from the "Senga" which young women in the 1970s renamed themselves from their original "Agnes"?

Image removed

With this edit an anon removed the image and caption, without giving any reason in the edit summary. The image can be seen at #What do Neds dress like? above, and in the fast moving world of ned fashions may be too out of date :) Not a big deal, does anyone want to add it back? . . dave souza, talk 19:00, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Ned origins

Is the derivation from "non-educated delinquent" a myth? Is there any known derivation? — Asbestos | Talk 22:52, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Yes, "Non-Educated Delinquint" is a myth that Rosie Kane attempted to perpetuate. However, I don't know about its actual origin. --Colin Angus Mackay 23:09, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Non-educated delinquent predates Rosie Kane's infamous speech about the subject by a long way. I've gone through most of my life knowing of that derivation. Where it comes from and who told me is another matter, but Ms Kane's involvement is purely coincidental. I think the reference to her as originator should be removed from the article. --Ithika 23:29, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Is it possible that the word is derived from the character in the Lobey Dosser comic strip? That's one less common theory I've heard. --172.201.113.187 19:53, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Maybe, but perhaps as the stereotypical name of the sons of absent US Forces fathers, post WW2. 'Neds' was the general term for petty criminals in STV's Crime Desk in the 1980s, where Bill Knox would usually describe them as "neds in brown anoraks". --scruss 12:26, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

I dont know about it being a myth, as I remember being educated about the acronym around 1983 in Glasgow by a fellow from Ayrshire. When was the ned word supposedly first used?

My parents (Glaswegians) can recall the use of the word Ned in the fifties, related to the Teddy Boys (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teddy_Boy_%28youth_culture%29). While the article makes a link between Ned and Edward, the link between Edward and the Teddy Boy's Edwardian style of dress could be highlighted.

Aside from that, why not mention the 'spiritual home' of the Scottish goth - outside the Glasgow Modern Art Gallery in Royal Exchange Square. Often the location of fights between the two groups.

At Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ned (Scottish) the consensus was to merge with Chav and redirect. This is what i have done, SqueakBox 18:36, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

8/7 is not a consensus. Reverted to pre-redirect version. --GraemeL ^(talk) 11:58, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

I agree totally with GraemeL. It is crystal clear from the AfD discussion page that no consensus was reached. And you can add my Oppose vote against the proposed merger, making it 8/8. If in doubt, we should not muck about with perfectly good articles. Both Chav and Ned are absolutely fine as they are.--Mais oui! 12:17, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

We cannot add your vote. There were was no consensus to keep. Perhaps you wabnt to force a new Vfd, but leaving the article as is is not an acceptable option, SqueakBox 16:32, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

BTW 9 people voted to redirect not 8, SqueakBox 16:36, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

My bad, I forgot to count the original submitter. Also an aplology, I should have left a note on your talk page when I did the revert.

That said, 8/7 is still not a consensus and the AfD was originally closed as keep by another admin. If there is no consensus, then the article should be left as is. Reverted the redirect again. --GraemeL ^(talk) 16:47, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

I disagree. The only solution is another Vfd, which I will do now, SqueakBox 16:49, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

the word NED to everyone today means - Non - Educated - Delinquent - .. i dont care what the history of the word is. Those who are known to be NEDS are exactly that!.. if the shoe fits.

This is a real problem, it's so important that we promote the correct origin of the word. it is particularly important for words that come to be seen as 'un-PC' and no longer used. I'm very happy to see words fall out of everyday use if they are offensive, but i really object when i'm told to stop using a word because of some bogus connectin. An example would be the use of the word brainstorming to describe a ideas generating session, for some time there has been objection to the word in that it was offensivve to people with epilepsy, but many studies have show that the word is not offensive, it's much more offensive to assume the opinions of a group without actually asking them. I really doubt that ned ever came from Non-educatied delinquent (although happy to accept that if anyone can prove it) it seems much more likely to be a shortened form of some other word (perhaps the teddy boy thing). this is highlighted with the recent announcement that the term NEET will no longer be used as it has become an insult rather than just a label. words like Tinker, Navvy, Scally etc all have interesting routes, which although we might decide that the word is now offensive, nevertheless the social history of the word is well worht preserving - please someone find out what Ned actually derives from. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gavinski (talk • contribs) 12:30, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

DEFEND YOUR CITY

http://www.dieNEDdie.com I noticed that you do not make the important distinction between "working class" and "underclass". The difference of course being that the working class works and the underclass is on the dole. I presume most Neds to be underclass.

The backronym explanation of Ned has only come about in the last few years, the word was in common usage way before it ever stood for anything. I think the teddy boy's explanation is unlikely as it doesn't fit the stereotype or even have the potential to evolve to encompass it, surely then we'd just call them 'Teds'?. Unless anyone can find a reliable source to back this up? Does nobody else think that the etymology comes from a contraction of the old Scots phrase "ne'er do well"? I think that sounds like the most likely source of the word and is the first one I ever heard of. Hex ten (talk) 15:00, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Thing is, "non-educated" isn't correct English. It might come from abbreviating "ne'er do well", but I've no source for that, just something I heard once. - Duncan Sneddon —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.35.212.48 (talk) 19:30, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Neds Vs Goths

I disagree with the opinion that Neds and Goths are unrelated. They are both youth fashions and both groups have been acused of antisocial behaviour. Therefore the comparison is justified. --Colin Angus Mackay 10:44, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

They may not be totally unrelated, but I do not see how a comparison between Neds and Goths is more relevant than any other fashion or subculture; just about all youth groups are accused of antisocial behaviour.

Furthermore, "ned" is primarily a derogatory term, where being antisocial and violent is part of the definition of the sterotype (as indeed, this Wikipedia article claims), which is not true at all of goth or other subcultures.

I'm not sure what this section really adds - if comparisons must be made, perhaps it should be expanded into a general comparison to other subcultures?

I'm also sceptical about the comments regarding "nu goths" and it now being an American import. This certainly isn't the situation in England, where the Goth subculture can be traced back to the 1980s, though perhaps things are different in Scotland. Can this be backed up? Or if it's meant to be talking more of spooky kids, then it seems contradictory to be talking about goths in the first place. Mdwh 02:47, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

I've generalised the section a bit more. Nu Metallers aren't Goths, so this section is already talking about two sub-cultures, and I've heard accusations of antisocial behaviour made of most sub-cultures - I've kept Goths and Nu Metallers as examples.

Deleted the bit about Modern Goths versus 80s Goths - it's not particularly true that modern goths in general are more influenced by metal than 80s goth (maybe it's true of the goths accused of antisocial behaviour, but it's misleading to say this is true of "modern goths" in general), and I feel this is better left to the Goth article anyway.

Goths being "easily spotted" was recently edited to "not as easy to spot" - I can see both points of view, but seems better to leave it out until there is some kind of agreement (and, is it referring to Goths, or Nu-Metallers?). Mdwh 05:45, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Just a point of interest: Studies have shown that 'Neds' and 'Goths' (or 'Moshers' as they are known in Scotland) are two very different types of people. Moshers tend to be well-educated, middle-class with parents who are attentive to their needs and Neds appear to be almost the exact opposite. And, Neds HATE Moshers and vice-versa; it's not merely mild annoyance the two groups feel at each other: it's two different kinds of people colliding when forced into an enclosed space like a secondary school.

Are Goths really known as Moshers in Scotland? --scruss 12:15, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

No, Goths are Goths and Moshers are Moshers [metallers in my day :] although there can be a level of overlap. A mosher will be into similar music - may even listen to the same stuff but doesn't necessarily wear the gothic scene clothing. With this light, I'd never call it Neds vs Goths [or Moshers] but instead neds against the world. They go after other neds after all. -CaptF (talk) 13:01, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

To a ned, everyone else is either a goth, mosher or emo anyway, so it matters little. The most important point to remember is all neds should be anally raped by the brokem buckfast bottles which they cherish so. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.235.26.245 (talk) 17:38, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

What do Neds dress like?

Frosty Jack's...ye canna beat it.

These amiable lads asked to have their photie took while I was taking a scenic view, and to my eye seemed to be wearing the kind of outfit currently associated with neds. There's no reason to associate them with delinquency, but with a suitable caption this might illustrate the article. Clarification on whether these are ned fashions would be welcome. ...dave souza, talk 23:19, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

From showing this picture to some acquaintances, the consensus is that it would be wrong to categorise these lads as neds, so if the image is used the caption would have to be carefully considered. ..dave souza, talk 10:30, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Oh no, I disagree — these are your quintessential neds. The only flaws are (a) the lack of socks on top of trouser bottoms, and (b) no visible Buckfast. Does anyone know what they're drinking; either the clear stuff or the yellow liquid in the cups? Ithika 17:17, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

My greengrocer reckons the clear stuff in the bottle is some variety of cider, there was a bottle of (diluting type) orange which was cut out when cropping the image. Our local fish van guy agrees with you, and would have expected vodka and orange, but the lads were friendly and while the image suits, best not to stereotype these particular individuals. By the way, see View' of Ruchill Church for the location. ..dave souza, talk 17:51, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Update: the (clear blue) bottle is of Frosty Jacks strong white cider (that's what it claims) .dave souza, talk 13:16, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Ok. Picture added with hopefully tactful caption. ...dave souza, talk 10:42, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Good choice of wording, but probably not 'that' tactful... there was an unfortunate typo! :-) -- Ithika 12:52, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. ..dave souza, talk 13:16, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I actually know two of them. And, in the "NED" hierarchy, they're quite definitely at the very bottom. One, atleast, has a few career opportunities. I'd say the best way to define that particular trio would be as "posers".

They may be different in their behaviour and personality in real life, but that's irrelevant as in that picture taken at that time, dressed in those sports clothes and drinking white cider, they exemplify what most Scots would probably imagine a ned to look something like.--h i s s p a c e r e s e a r c h 09:17, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, our posers were removed in this edit at 04:13 on 27 February 2007 by User:82.35.192.252 with the edit summary (remove picture and caption intended to offend) indicating that said user claims mind-reading powers and didn't bother reading this page. Any opinions? .... dave souza, talk 22:44, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

This picture is your classic stereotype ned, the deletionist must not understand the definition or what the article is about. The only thing missing from this photo is their bucky and their illegitimate brood, just kidding, excellent picture. This article has gone down the tubes since the last time I looked at it, too many people "trying not to offend" and asking for uncitable ciations, in fact that article mentioned is much better than the one we have now. Current editor-vandals may lack ned experience. Hex ten (talk) 17:16, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

I stand by my previous comment as it is far more applicable to today's article than the one I was previously outlining. The problem is still editors (while needed badly to prevent vandalism by neds) who do not have the experience of seeing neds on a daily basis or who do not live in Scotland at all! Hex ten (talk) 12:16, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Ned "Uniform"

"a certain kind of khaki coloured tartan material" - prob. Burberry or counterfeit Burberry. Cf. 'Chav'.

neds are also reffered to as bams by the way —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.147.62.124 (talk) 22:20, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

I have deleted the "(which are effectively knuckledusters)" which was used at the end of the first paragraph of the discussion of stereotypes. In most cases this is not true and is the original author's opinion. The sovereign rings are typically more like the rest of the gold jewellery worn by Neds i.e. a status symbol used in an attempt to elevate them from their typically poor working-class background. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.79.162.144 (talk) 12:55, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Agreed!

I was about to post an observation and have found that it has been pre-empted by the first contribution on this page. 'Ned' being the traditional nickname for Edward, I am convinced that the term was used interchangeably with 'Ted' during the era of 'teddy-boys' in Britain in the 1950s. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Martin york (talk • contribs) 13:42, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Russian equivalent

Can you add to the article somewhere that for example a similar person in Russia is called gopnik —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mizanthrop (talk • contribs) 12:14, 5 May 2011 (UTC)