Talk:Neolithic Greece

Mycenaean invasion from the north

The spread of agriculture and farming has nothing to do with Greeks, nor with Armenians, neither with any related Indo/European people. It came from middle east via Anatolia or north Africa via Sicily or Spain. Piro ilir (talk) 17:34, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

Furthermore , the Minoans and their kin of Aegean islands and mainland current central and south Greece, weren't Indo/European. Archeological remains show clearly for an invasion from the north. It was the warrior elites of IE horse riders with bronze weapons. Piro ilir (talk) 17:40, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

Proto Mycenaeans set foot in central Greece roughly at least 2000bce. Piro ilir (talk) 17:42, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

Every analyse of ancient DNA and archeological excavations too , point to the IE horse riders migrating from modern Kazan city in Russia , throughout onto Europe , Anatolia and India. Piro ilir (talk) 17:48, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

Taking into consideration the fact that the artifacts have an obvious slow but sure development shows that the same groups of people continued living in Greece at least until the end of the Cycladic culture. Scienceandhistorygreat1 (talk) 09:22, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

noelithic greece invaded by bronze age indo european myceneans?

who were the people of neolithic age of greece, were they non indo european, and did greeks invaded the neolithic cultures of greece and brought bronze age.

these two paragraphs are in direct conflict with each other

It is believed that Indo-European speakers originated in the Pontic-Caspian Steppe in present-day Ukraine and Russia, migrating into Europe around 3100-3000 BCE.

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According to Gareth Alun Owens, the Neolithic period saw the development of Minoan and Greek as distinct Indo-European languages in Crete and mainland Greece respectively.[12] In archaeogenetic studies, Greco-Armenian speakers diverged from the Proto-Indo-European language family around 5300–5000 BC coinciding with the Neolithic spread of agriculture from Asia Minor to Greece with Greek developing into a separate language before 4000 BC.

secondly minoans are not classified as 'indo europeans', it is pretty evident that minoans must be the original neolithic people who were dispersed from the main land by the invading greeks.

202.188.53.210 (talk) 21:35, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

Genetics

@Historyandsciencelearn: Even though i provided you with an actual source, namely "Genetic origins of the Minoans and Mycenaeans (2017)", you failed to take advantage of it and instead came and added again something that cannot be considered a source. How are the readers supposed to verify what you write? These following citations are not verifiable sources:

Lindemann, Katherine (August 2017). "DNA analysis traces origin of Minoans, Mycenaeans and Neolithic Greeks".{{cite news}}: CS1 maint: url-status (link)

Lazaridis, Iosif (2017). DNA study, Greece and interview. Harvard University. p. 8.

If they do actually exist, please provide me with the actual URLs. Demetrios1993 (talk) 08:12, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

@Future Perfect at Sunrise: User:Historyandsciencelearn seems to be a WP:SOCK single-purpose account (Global account information) of User:Scienceandhistorygreat1 with whom you have interacted in the past due to citing non-existent sources and creating theories out of thin air, such as the Greek Neolithic development theory. The user didn't even apply some creativity for the name of his new account (compare History-and-science-learn with Science-and-history-great-1). Admin action might be necessary. Demetrios1993 (talk) 09:47, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

Mate, part of the DNA study is also part of the "Greeks" at the end of the "genetics" part. What's your problem ? You can search about it, I think that there is even a YouTube video with the interview of the leading scientist. I am new here and I don't know how to put the sites in the sources but I mentioned the names of the leading researchers and info + date. Historyandsciencelearn (talk) 10:39, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

And I have watched mamy similar sources in other topics but why here it is a problem. Historyandsciencelearn (talk) 10:42, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

I saw your source but I don't know how to write it. You could just write it instead of deleting the entire article. Historyandsciencelearn (talk) 10:47, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

You can also find it in the Mycenaean Greece Historyandsciencelearn (talk) 10:49, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

Just search origin of the Minoans and Mycenaeans and you will find it. Please, if you can, help me with the source but let me write it. Historyandsciencelearn (talk) 11:03, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

I asked you a question User:Historyandsciencelearn. Where are the URLs of the sources you cited? As for relative information being cited in the Minoan civilization and Mycenaean Greece articles, i know, i am the one who informed you, and besides i have personally edited the "Genetic studies" section of the latter. I am also aware of the interview you mention, here it is, namely of the deceased George Stamatoyannopoulos who participated in the study, but per WP:YOUTUBE such citations usually fall under a grey area and i don't know if it is an appropriate source. That is beside the point though. Personally i am not negating the content, but the way you go about trying to add it. And that is not something new as mentioned above in my address to FPaS, but a continuous behavior that is unacceptable for Wikipedia. I am still waiting for an answer to my first question. Demetrios1993 (talk) 13:12, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

But I don't understand your question. I told you where you can find it. Historyandsciencelearn (talk) 14:37, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

You are probably far more experienced, I would appreciate it if you let me write the article and you write the source that you mentioned, I think that were talking about the same thing. Historyandsciencelearn (talk) 14:41, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

No, you didn't answer me anything. I asked you to share the URLs of the two sources mentioned above in green color. You are trying to evade the question like you did through your other account when an identical question was asked, namely here. As for assisting with the addition of a "Genetics" section, there is an additional relevant study that i have to review when i find some time (possibly in the weekend), and then i will include some information. Demetrios1993 (talk) 17:01, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

I answered and I told you where to search. So only you have the right to add info and everyone needs to wait for you ? Bloody Narcissist. That's why Wikipedia has such a poor quality, they let Narcissists like you to destroy everything. Historyandsciencelearn (talk) 17:46, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

You haven't answered anything. Does a news article by Katherine Lindemann under the title "DNA analysis traces origin of Minoans, Mycenaeans and Neolithic Greeks" exist? Does a book by Iosif Lazaridis under the title "DNA study, Greece and interview" that is published by Harvard University exist, let alone a page 8 of it? If so, where is a URL that can verify it? These are my questions that still lack answers. And above all that we have you calling me a "bloody narcissist" that destroys Wikipedia's quality. Very unproductive indeed. Besides that i agreed to assist, and my "possibly in the weekend" reference had to do with the reviewal of an additional relevant study. That doesn't mean i withhold you of making suggestions that can be valuable for the article right now. But in order to be able to make suggestions you have to initially be familiar with the relevant source. Are you familiar with any such source? Because what you cited, and i quoted above, seems totally made up. Demetrios1993 (talk) 18:39, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

Of course it exists, it mainly focus on the Bronze age but the Neolithic period is also included. The official title does not include the "Neolithic Greeks" but parts of the analysis does. The "book" is actually an interview given by the leader of the analysis to the University and it was released by university's press. Historyandsciencelearn (talk) 08:48, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

Not every source has to be online, OFFLINE sources are acceptable. However, BURDEN is on you to give more detailed information about the source, as you have added the material and have been challenged about it, rightfully and cordially. If it is a book or article, you are probably able to give the name of the publisher, of the publication, the date of publication and issue number, an ISSN or ISBN number, and, even if it is not fully accessible online, a URl to a catalogue entry or page describing the work. Without any of this, your source is not credible and the statement can be removed. Place Clichy (talk) 09:26, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

I can give the name of the publisher, the date and the title but I don't know the ISSN Historyandsciencelearn (talk) 10:52, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

You can start with that. Any information helping to identify a credible source will be welcome, there cannot be too much information about that. You can also use {{Cite book}} or {{Cite news}} which are helpful to present sources in a standard and widely accepted format. Place Clichy (talk) 13:28, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

Ok, who is the publisher, and what's the title and its date? Then again, i thought you had already included these in the two aforementioned citations. It suffices to say that if they don't exist or match up with the initial ones you added in the article, they fall under WP:FICTREF, and when we consider that you have been warned of this again in the past through your other account (1, 2, 3, 4), it essentially nullifies any WP:GOODFAITH assumption we might and should have had. This doesn't pertain to the validity or not of the content you tried to add, since i have already provided actual sources that can partly justify its inclusion. This has more to do with your mindset of adding information and citing fictitious sources, which will naturally be unverifiable. Demetrios1993 (talk) 15:58, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

Katherine Lindemann

Official title "DNA analysis traces the origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans"

Date : 2/8/2017

In addition the leader of the analysis/research gave an interview on Harvard University in 2017. Historyandsciencelearn (talk) 20:13, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

Anyway, fortunately you added the study. I am familiar with an older study, I will first find every available info and I will add it. Historyandsciencelearn (talk) 08:23, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

I published and I added source Historyandsciencelearn (talk) 10:35, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

Lindemann's article did actually exist, even though you initially cited a false title (by adding "Neolithic Greeks") and the article has been taken down from its original source which was ResearchGate. The original URL was this following one, https://www.researchgate.net/blog/post/dna-analysis-traces-origins-of-minoans-and-mycenaean, but is now a dead link. Furthermore, ResearchGate has a blogging feature for users to write short reviews on peer-reviewed articles, and it's what Lindemann's source appears to be. I believe anyone can publish such reviews, with no credentials whatsoever, which brings into question their WP:RELIABILITY. Also, bear in mind that ResearchGate publishes an author-level metric in the form of an "RG Score", but it has been criticized as having questionable reliability and an unknown calculation methodology. As for Lazaridis' interview, you didn't provide much information about it in order to verify, but anyway, let's move on. I saw your new addition in the article, and it actually pertains to the aforementioned additional study i was looking to go over in the weekend. I included additional information about it and also entered the source properly. I say properly because your citation was again somewhat problematic, with a dead link and no authors included. But it's a progress at least and enough to assume WP:GOODFAITH. Demetrios1993 (talk) 17:43, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

Nice but why did you delete the "Mesolithic Greece" ? I wrote that I will make an article for it so it will not be empty, I actually did a draft today and I wait for it to be published. Historyandsciencelearn (talk) 18:10, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

The Link of the 2016 analysis was correct but I don't know why it is not working when I write it here, I checked it twice but anyway, thanks for improving it. Historyandsciencelearn (talk) 18:12, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

Because "Balkan Mesolithic" pertains to Greece as well. And even Mesolithic Europe encompasses both the Balkans and Greece through the Western Hunter-Gatherers. It's ok about the link. Demetrios1993 (talk) 18:20, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

Griechische Sozialgeschichte

I will add info about the late Neolithic Society. They are from a German book writen few decades ago that I fortunately have access to. Officially it starts from Mycenean Greece but it memtions info about late Neolithic Greece too. Historyandsciencelearn (talk) 18:38, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

I cannot find that source online. Is "Griechische Sozialgeschichte" the real title of the book? If so, please add the actual title, not an English translation of it. Also, specify that the language is German, by including the code "de". Last, what is the page and the relevant quote? Demetrios1993 (talk) 19:24, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

It's a translated version of the book so the page of the original German book is not the same. Historyandsciencelearn (talk) 10:05, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

You are right about the title, I will change it. Historyandsciencelearn (talk) 10:07, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

I have just fixed it Historyandsciencelearn (talk) 10:11, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

The source again isn't added properly. I will fix it as long as you can provide the page and the actual quote that pertains to what you added. Didn't you see my last question? Demetrios1993 (talk) 10:29, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Oh I did not notice it because I was searching info about Neolithic Crete. A user from the Minoan civilization refuses to accept that the Minoans followed Neolithic Greece. Anyway... It is in page 67 - 68 in part "The historical position of the Mycenean world" Historyandsciencelearn (talk) 10:46, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

BTW I will add info about Neolithic Knossos because the users from Minoan civilization demand it. Historyandsciencelearn (talk) 10:48, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

I also asked you for the actual quote that pertains to your edit. Please provide it so i can verify that what you added is correct. As for User:Johnbod from the Minoan civilization article that you refer to, please discuss it and try to find consensus. I didn't see any demand from him/her, simply some rational concerns. Anyway, since the article also includes a map of Greece and even the site of Poliochne on the island of Lemnos, it shows that it doesn't only pertain to the mainland. But again, try to find consensus before you make any controversial edits. Demetrios1993 (talk) 11:03, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

The quote is translated, I don't know the original. Historyandsciencelearn (talk) 11:41, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Comparative Chronology is empty for a long period, I will turn it to "Warfare in Neolithic Greece". Historyandsciencelearn (talk) 11:58, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

An English translation doesn't seem to exist, and it doesn't make sense to have a German title for an English translation. Please provide something to verify what you claim, such as a URL (either from Amazon, Google Books, etc.) that proves such a translation exists, as well as the actual quote (this is the fourth time i am asking for it). Alternatively, i would greatly appreciate if you can take a photograph (if in physical form) or a printscreen (if in PDF form) of the page, then upload it to imgbb, and share it here. That last option would be more than enough.

Sidenote: Please from now on use === === when adding a sub-section title, instead of boldening them with apostrophes. Demetrios1993 (talk) 12:55, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

It is not English translation, it is a Hellenic translation. It was translated by Aggelos Xaniotis and outside the book is written "Μορφωτικό Ίδρυμα Εθνικής Τραπέζης". Historyandsciencelearn (talk) 13:23, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Historyandsciencelearn, initially the referenced title was "History of Ancient Greek Society", then you agreed that it was "Griechische Sozialgeschichte", now it's "Μορφωτικό Ίδρυμα Εθνικής Τραπέζης", which is just the name of a cultural foundation here in Greece and what appears to be the publisher of "Ιστορία της αρχαίας ελληνικής κοινωνίας", namely "Griechische Sozialgeschichte" translated in Greek by Aggelos Xaniotis. Right? Come to my position. We began this whole discussion on the 18th of February ("Genetics") about you not being careful when adding references and you were even suspected of adding WP:FICTREF, yet you are still not being careful. Above all that, this is the fifth time i ask for an actual quote to corroborate what you added on the article. WP:BURDEN is upon you to demonstrate verifiability. I don't care if the quote is in Greek, German, or English, nor does Wikipedia's guidelines forbid you of adding non-English references per WP:NONENG, therefore there is no reason for this whole confusion.

Sidenote: Please start using colons (:) when you reply, per WP:TALKREPLY. Demetrios1993 (talk) 17:19, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Demetrios1993 The name of the German book is the name of this talk but the translated version is " Ιστορία της Αρχαίας Ελληνικής Κοινωνίας". Quotes : "Οι αυστηρές διακρίσεις που υπήρχαν κατά την τελική Νεολιθική και αρχική Μυκηναϊκή περίοδο για τις τάξεις εχουν ξεπεράστει σε μεγάλο βαθμό"

"Τοτε διακρίνονταν ακόμα πολύ αυστηρά οι δύο τάξεις, των ελεύθερων και των μη ελεύθερων (δούλων)" Historyandsciencelearn (talk) 18:22, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Thank you. Can you confirm again, the relevant quote is from pages 67-68, correct? Also, go and see how i fixed the source you added, since it will be useful for you in the future. Both the original author and the translator are included as authors. Also, if an English name is available for non-English publishers, it is preferable to use the English name instead. Luckily, "Μορφωτικό Ίδρυμα Εθνικής Τραπέζης" is known in English as National Bank of Greece Cultural Foundation, and as you can see even has an article about it. Thus it is preferable to also link it when adding it in the citation by using square brackets ([[ ]]). Also the date and ISBN were added. And of course the page/pages that present the quote is/are always necessary (please go add it to the edit you did in the Mycenaean Greece article, because it currently lacks). Demetrios1993 (talk) 22:40, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Great, I added the page. I will add many new things from this book because it has special information about Mycenaean everyday life. Historyandsciencelearn (talk) 09:20, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

Starcevo culture

Greece was never within the main range of that culture. I believe that we should removed it from the cultures/civilizations that followed Neolithic Greece. Historyandsciencelearn (talk) 13:48, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

• remove Historyandsciencelearn (talk) 13:48, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Starčevo is just the name of a type site in the central Balkans (Serbia). Beyond that most of the Neolithic Balkan sites were not that different from each other, and thus the same or a very similar culture of the Starčevo type site is to be found in respective type sites of Greece. That's why even the Starčevo culture article includes Sesklo culture, Dimini culture, and Neolithic Greece among those that preceded it. For example, look at this map. I do not agree with a removal of it from the infobox. Demetrios1993 (talk) 17:38, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

From this perspective you are right, I totally understand what you mean and I agree. Thanks for explaining. Historyandsciencelearn (talk) 18:24, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Demetrios1993 I want to ask you something. Should I stop trying to improve "Neolithic Greece" ? Other users say that I make you and other users busy because you have to "clean" my edits. Historyandsciencelearn (talk) 18:32, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

You are free to improve whatever article you want mate, just try and learn in the process without making the same mistakes when other fellow editors correct you or forward you to a certain Wikipedia guideline. We all had to learn and are still learning. My main advise is to familiarize yourself. You can do this, again, by studying the guidelines, but even more so by copying or studying the code of fellow editors. You may also interchange between visual editing and source editing, since some edits are more easy to do through the former, while others through the latter. Demetrios1993 (talk) 22:52, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Thank you very much Historyandsciencelearn (talk) 09:14, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

Is the new source about Neolithic warfare fine ? Historyandsciencelearn (talk) 09:59, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

I cleaned it up a little. The reference was ok, but some of the wording and the linking of common words is not necessary. Also, can you please add the whole names of "Papathanasiou, Larsen and Norr". Last, what do you mean by "strong points" in the first sentence of "Fortifications"? Demetrios1993 (talk) 20:08, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

Strong points are generally defensive positions that can have many roles during fighting. I don't know the full names but I can search if it is important. Historyandsciencelearn (talk) 09:17, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

I thought so as well. We could also use "defensible points" which is more descriptive, but then again "strongpoints" as a single word also has its own article that we can link. Also, concerning the full names i did a quick search and found them. Clark Spencer Larsen also has his own article. Demetrios1993 (talk) 10:35, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

Nice and I want to tell you that I am deeply sorry for calling you "bloody narcissist", I was wrong, you helped me a lot and you improved many articles. Historyandsciencelearn (talk) 19:34, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

No worries. Demetrios1993 (talk) 20:30, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

Can you also add the page of the Abulafia (2011) source? I also added a second one which expands on the subject. You can be read it here for free. Demetrios1993 (talk) 14:45, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

Okay I will Historyandsciencelearn (talk) 14:55, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

Neolithic Rhodes

I have information about Neolithic settlements in Rhodes but I don't know in which part should I add it because I can not find their exact age. Any ideas ? Historyandsciencelearn (talk) 15:01, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

The Late Neolithic section. The Neolithic settlement of Rhodes begins at about 4000 BCE. It's also mentioned in the respective article of Rhodes (city). The source that is given for it is this one (which is archived) from the official website of the municipality of Rhodes. Alternatively, here is also the current version of the webpage, but in Greek (i tried pressing the English button at the upper right corner for the English version but it forwards you to the homepage). Demetrios1993 (talk) 15:59, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

Actually put it in the Final Neolithic, since it pertains to the period 4500-3200 BCE. Demetrios1993 (talk) 16:00, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

Great, I will edit it tomorrow. Historyandsciencelearn (talk) 16:36, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

End of the Neolithic period

Should we creat a special place for the end of the Neolithic period in Greece or put all the information in the Final Neolithic "place" ? BTW if you can, please add the (new) settlements in the map, finally I am back after 2 months :) Historyandsciencelearn (talk) 10:20, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Use the Final Neolithic section. Regarding the Knossos population, can you tell me what is the page of the source you added and also what it actually says? Does it say anything about a population of 25-50 during 7000-6000 BCE? Demetrios1993 (talk) 11:40, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Yes, it does. It is also mentioned in Knossos article. Historyandsciencelearn (talk) 11:49, 14 April 2021 (UTC)