Talk:Pelorus Sound

Requested move 7 January 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. WP:COMMONNAME as per Ngram. RM unable to ascertain any substantial ambiguity or precision issues and as such supporters' arguments – though well-founded and legitimate – are void here. (non-admin closure) Colonestarrice (talk) 06:31, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

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Pelorus Sound → Pelorus Sound / Te Hoiere – The previous undiscussed page move should be reverted. Michael60634 (talk) 20:57, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose. Dual article titles are generally discouraged. Rreagan007 (talk) 23:37, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose: Per WP:ON and Rreagan007. --Spekkios (talk) 19:04, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
• Support: The above comments neglect to mention the caveats in the use of slashes for expressly this sort of thing, where the name used itself is a dual name. This isn't an artificial construct, but rather the name used for the sound. Several recent books since the name change in 2014 refer to the full name, including Lonely Planet guidebooks, as well as several in-depth histories of the region, not to mention research carried out in the region, maps, and international databases. In short, everything which WP:WIAN says we should look to in determining a name. Turnagra (talk) 08:16, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
• Follow up comment - we should also probably alert those who have previously moved this page (and not yet engaged) to the move discussion, in case they'd like to weigh in. User:HTGS; User:ShakyIsles; User:Powellelli. Turnagra (talk) 08:18, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
• Support: I'd firstly like to acknowledge and apologize for my hastiness in moving the page recently. The name change is further supported by neighbouring sound Queen Charlotte Sound / Tōtaranui's use of its dual name via a slash. The WP:NCNZ under "Dual and alternative place names" also explicitly states the format for using these names. Dual place name usage in New Zealand is ever increasing, and as User:Turnagra has mentioned, this is one such name being used. Pelorus Sound / Te Hoiere would be far from unique within New Zealand articles. Ngā mihi. Powellelli (talk) 10:05, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

  Queen Charlotte Sound / Tōtaranui is used specifically because of disambiguation reasons which isn't required in this case. --Spekkios (talk) 10:18, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose. Dual names are common in New Zealand, but they are usually not seen as one whole name, but as two distinct names used together to denote equal respect for both languages (this is why the names are not joined by a dash, but separated by a spaced slash). Even if we were to treat the dual name as one whole name it would have to be significantly more common than the common single name to make sense as the article title, because there are two good reasons to avoid it: the slash’s added potential confusion (WP:SLASH), and the dual name’s added length, per WP:Concise. Thankfully it is clear which name is more common. As of this post, Google news results for Pelorus alone returns “About 902 results”, while the dual name returns “About 52 results” (note the numbers are a little fudgey, but margins remain; and don’t worry, the slash gets ignored). Ratios for scholarly work also favour the single name by a clear margin (“350” to “44”). (Note, Ngrams is predictably useless, and I only link it here to save others’ time.) — HTGS (talk) 12:48, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. Not the WP:COMMONNAME. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:13, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
• Support, Having travelled to Havelock over the holiday the full dual name was commonly used. Local companies use the dual namee see https://www.themailboat.co.nz/about-us/explorers-and-settlers/. Dual names with slash are used extensively for nz place names per WP:NCNZ. Meets the naming WP:CRITERIA: is recognisable, Naturalness people will search for the dual name and the two individual names. The dual name is the one you naturally use to link to the article from other articles. It is precise. Concision - although slightly longer the title is not of significant length. Consistent with other nz articial and other in the Marlborough region. ShakyIsles (talk) 20:23, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

  Hang on. You can’t just say it’s recognisable. Nor that it’s natural, which it very clearly isn’t; we don’t talk or write with slashes between words. Nor do most English speakers naturally use two different names from two different languages to refer to a place.

  If we’re being realistic the only criteria it potentially wins on is that it will be more recognisable for people who only know it as Te Hoiere, but that is most likely to be zero people (in part because of the added confusion that an island within this Te Hoiere is also named Te Hoiere). Anybody who only knows it as Pelorus Sound / Te Hoiere (again, unrealistic) will easily understand Pelorus Sound alone. — HTGS (talk) 21:30, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

  I disagree. It's not as pronounced in this case, but only using the one name can introduce ambiguity. The Avon River, for example, could refer to one of over 20 rivers - but Avon River / Ōtākaro is instantly recognisable as the one which flows through Christchurch. To flip your example, anybody who only knows it as Pelorus Sound will easily understand Pelorus Sound / Te Hoiere, while people who only know it as the dual name or Te Hoiere (which is possible, despite your assertion) may struggle with the current title. Dual names provide the best recognisability across all options. The slash is also solely an orthographic choice and has no impact on the naturalness of the name, but I'm sure you know that already. Turnagra (talk) 04:10, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

  This isn’t about any of the Avon rivers though. There is no ambiguity here. Go ahead and apply the same logic to any place that has names in multiple languages. Uluru isn’t at Uluru / Ayers Rock. Surely it would also benefit from recognizability even more than Pelorus? Heck, even “Taranaki / Mount Egmont” would probably help a lot of our—ahem—“older” readers. Of all the examples we could pull up with various recognisable names, this one really is least in need of a dual title. — HTGS (talk) 04:35, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

  Turnagra has addressed the recognisability. I also think it is more recognisable as the full name.

  Regarding its naturalness, I’m not sure how you can believe it isn’t natural… It is the actual name of the place. It is the name in any modern map including the most used map Google maps. The second half of the naturalness definition is “Such a title usually conveys what the subject is actually called in English.” 'Pelorus Sound / Te Hoiere' is what it is called in NZ English.

  Yes, you don’t pronounce the “/” but these dual names are perfectly normal and increasing used as part of NZ English. New Zealanders find it completely normal to speak in NZ English using words of European and Māori origin. As I said, when there, there where multiple signs and brochures using the full name and locals also spoke the full name.

  The other part in the definition is “the name editors would naturally use to link to the article from other articles.” It is commonly referred and linked by the name Pelorus Sound / Te Hoiere on multiple pages despite you changing it on the Havelock and Maud Island in the last few days. ShakyIsles (talk) 05:50, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose Per evidence presented by HTGS, not the WP:COMMONNAME. WP:CONCISE and MOS:SLASH also prefer the current title. BilledMammal (talk) 06:20, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.