Talk:Phyllis Rampton Narrow Gauge Railway Trust

Phyllis Rampton

Who was Phyllis Rampton? Presumably there must be a story here. Anyone know? Timothy Titus ^{Talk To TT} 18:39, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

There is, but I don't think Phyllis figures very heavily. All of this is uncorroborated genealogical research (to confirm it I'd need certificates), but it goes like this:

Phyllis Yeoman, born 1904 in Thanet, Kent. Married Eric J Rampton in 1930. Two children: Ann and Peter. Ann married a Mr Archer in 1973 (and is presumably the same Ann Archer who is the secretary). Peter is (I think) the moving force behind the collection others are calling Collection X. Phyllis died in 1983, and I suspect that Peter simply named the trust after his mother to honour her memory.

Hope this helps. --Fraggle11 (talk) 11:21, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Thank you. Timothy Titus ^{Talk To TT} 02:24, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Does the trust own the loco's?

Having read this debate on Narrow Gauge Heaven, it would seem that the trust does not own the loco's listed in this article. Thought? Rgds, --Trident13 (talk) 13:31, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

I have ammended the page to reflect the comment that the collection may be now owned by the Vale of Rheidol Railway. Paul590

I posted the following on the Narrow Gauge Heaven forum some time ago. as far as I have been able to establish it lays out the basis of the misunderstanding reagrding "The Phyllis Rampton Narrow Gauge Railway Trust". There have been subsequent changes to the figures and trustees but the basic information is virtually unchanged - as I understand it - Ian Collins 11 April 2010

I had been following this thread and, owing to a lot of misconception and frankly incorrect statements and assumptions, decided to see if investigating the current situation could inject some reality into the matter; particularly as, in attempting to assemble a database of narrow gauge steam locos in the UK – their origin, state and location, I have come across some (and the lack of some) pertinent information. I have known about the assemblage of locomotives etc. since the formation of what was, and to me still is, known as “Collection X”. Like many other narrow gauge enthusiasts, I have been irritated by the lack of information, appearance and access to the collection since its formation in the middle 1960s. Yes, this all started over 40 years ago!

Before I go any further, I would like to make it clear that what appears here is my own understanding and interpretation of the situation. I have no interest in any of the organisations involved; neither am I connected to, known to, or have met or communicated with any of the principals, directors, trustees or employees of any of the companies or individuals involved, as far as I know! Because of that I do not wish to pass judgement about the situation, merely to attempt to clarify it. Neither am I, other than by ordinary non-participating membership, involved in any railway organisation or project.

The first time I had any knowledge of the collection was in the mid to late 1960s when rumours were circulating, in the railway enthusiast’s press, of the importation of locos by a group of “enthusiastic preservationists” based in Surrey. I didn’t have any details until the publication of Roger Cromblehome’s “Steam ‘75”, where Collection X’s membership was disclosed as – J. Britton, P. Rampton, W. Lees and N. Bowman – with an address of Burgate Farm, Loxhill, Surrey. It transpired that they had acquired the entire stock of 600mm locos and the 4 wheeled Directors saloon from the Sabrero colliery system (Hulleras de Sabero y Anexas, S.A) in northern central Spain, when the 600mm system was abandoned in 1968. Lawrence Marshall’s “Spanish Narrow Gauge Steam Remembered”, pp 155-163 has some splendid photographs of these, including two of the Couillets and the Directors saloon, being unloaded from ship, at West India Docks, on 3 Feb 1969. Along with these were Hunslet Lillian which was acquired from Penrhyn Quarries in 1965/6; I don’t know if Nigel Bowman bought this directly or if there was any intermediary. As far as I know, this appears to be the only escapee from the collection and is now, of course, with Nigel at the Launceston Steam Railway. I don’t know for certain, but supect, that Lillian was never intended to be part of the collection proper. Other items in the collection in 1975 were the Avonside Heisler Renishaw No 4 and Bagnall Meyer Renishaw No 5, both from Crookes Bros. Ltd, Renishaw Sugar Estates in Natal. I don’t have dates for these additions but I know that the Bagnall underwent a repair and was still in Natal in 1968. A 1916 Dick Kerr diesel, from France, was also added in 1968. By 1980 there had been a few further additons: NG13 no. 82 Hannomag 10634, Bagnall 0-4-2T 2895, four Motor Rail 4-wheel diesels and four Isle of Man Railway bogie coaches. I don’t have further details of additions to this collection between 1980 and now but perusal of the later Steam ?? vols would probably reveal some further dates.

The one unanswered (as far as I know) question is, to whom did these and the subsequently acquired locos belong? Were they owned co-operatively or did individual locos have differing owners?

Whatever we may think about the acquisition of these items, it is worthwhile remembering that, without this intervention, by now most would have disappeared into razor blades, washing machines or the like!

In 1985 The Phyllis Rampton Narrow Gauge Railway Trust (PRNGRT) was formed and registered with the Charity Commission. Why it was set up and what it did in the early days and from where its funds came, I do not know. Reports published on the web only go back to 2004. However the one significant point that seems to have been overlooked by most people is that, this Trust does not own any locomotives or railway rolling stock. In the published accounts the Trust’s assets are virtually all financial investments, excepting a small amount of office equipment and unspecified photographs and records with a declared value of £10,100 which is not depreciated annually. Fixed Asset Investments show listed securities with a market value of just under £3 million and unlisted securities of just over £500,000. These latter consist of 100% share holding in The Vale of Rheidol Railway Ltd., valued at purchase in 1990 at £471,856 and considered not to have altered, and £34,900 of non-interest bearing loan stock. The trust is owed just over £1.9 million by the VoR. This is also declared to be non-interest bearing, repayable on 366 days notice and not before 1 year. The accounts also state that, because of its charitable status, this debt may be turned into a gift at a later date but no decision has been taken by the trustees. The Trust also holds a fixed and floating charge on the assets of the VoR to cover the loans . The latest published return shows the trustees as: Mr Colin William Bardwell JP, Mr Allan Baker, Mrs Ann Archer, Mr John Brooker, Mr Nicholas Acomb, Mr Thomas Civil, Mr James William Bardwell. The contact & contact address is given as Mr Peter J Rampton, Markwick Farm, Loxhill, nr. Godalming.

Attention now turns to the sale, by British Rail, of the Vale of Rheidol Railway. Having been put up for sale by the British Rail Board, the assets of what was originally The Vale of Rheidol Light Railway (subsequently absorbed by GWR) were transferred to a company initially known as Crondall Ltd., which changed its name to The Vale of Rheidol Railway Ltd in January 1988. I don’t know the amount paid for the assets and I am unsure as to whether this company was a subsidiary of the Brecon Mountain Railway or Hills & Bailey Ltd., or to what extent Peter Rampton was involved; however this situation was relatively short lived as it was sold to the PRNGRT in 1996 and it was registered as a charity on 16 June 1999.

The latest published return (y/e 31 Dec 2007) shows the directors and trustees as: P J Rampton, N Thompson, A Archer, P J N Ellis. The registered office is again Markwick Farm and Mrs Ann Archer is the Company Secretary. As the returns, easily available on line, only go back to 2003, I haven’t been able to discern when The Vale of Rheidol Railway obtained assets listed as Heritage Assets, the book value of which is shown as £882,585 at 31 Dec 2007. The following statement is shown on the company return for 2005:

"The directors have reviewed depreciation policy in the light of FRS 15 and SORP 2005. Non working locomotives that are museum pieces have been reallocated as heritage assets. The cost of these locomotives at 1st January 2005, £701,937, has been transferred from the cost brought forward of locomotives and rolling stock to cost brought forward of heritage assets. Compartive figures have been restated to reflect this change."

It appears fairly certain that these heritage assets are “Collection X” plus the further additions to the collection. The label “museum pieces” is interesting as it probably is used to reinforce statements made in the past that it is intended that a building eventually be erected to house the collection and present it as a museum. There have been applications made to the Heritage Lottery Fund but, as far as I know, none have been successful to date. There has been talk of work being done on some of the items in the VoR’s new workshop but no confirmation of what and to which has been forthcoming.

When these pieces were acquired by the VoR and from whom is not clear from the documentation available to me now but I think that some of the large amount showing that it owes to the PRNGRT probably (or possibly) represents their purchase. The additions seem to be ongoing, at least until the end of 2007.

As to whether or not the PRNGRT has not conducted itself in line with its charitable status, you have to look carefully at not just the Charitable Objects statement on its registration but also at the Classification – What, Who and How.

What •Education/Training •Environment/Conservation/Heritage

Who •Other charities/Voluntary bodies

How •Makes grants to organisations

From its returns, it appears that The Vale of Rheidol Railway Ltd has been in receipt of considerable financial support from the PRNGRT, so I think it is probable the Charity Commission would consider that in line with its aims. If you make a similar investigation of The Vale of Rheidol Railway Ltd.’s registration I think there is little doubt that it also fulfils its obligations, whether or not it has a museum open to the public at the moment.

To get the complete picture it would be nccessary to investigate the filings of The Vale of Rheidol Railway Ltd. at Companies House and the earlier returns of the PRNGRT at the Charity Commission. However with regard to the purposes for which I orignally set out on this little bit of research, I don’t think that is needed at this time.

As both of these organisations are properly constituted they will have had to prepare & present a Risk Assessment for both legal & insurance purposes. That the Health & Safety ticket has been played as a reason for not allowing viewings of the stored items, I believe is a perfectly valid, if convenient, excuse.

Whilst you may have gathered that I don’t agree with a lot of the earlier outpourings on this topic, I still agree that it has been a great shame that this mouth watering collection has been out of view for such a protracted period and begs the question – WHY? I am now getting to an age where I wonder if I ever will see the Sabero locos and the Heisler before the gas-axe is applied to my frames.

Whatever happens in the future is now up to the Vale of Rheidol Railway Ltd.; not the PRNGRT or Peter Rampton as an individual. However as a director & trustee of that company and his 40+ year association of the collection and its formation, I have little doubt that he might have more than a little say in how it is handled. I guess we are going to have to wait until the museum, in whatever form it might take, is built or the collection is dispersed (unlikely I would think) nd we can do little else.§ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.109.227.185 (talk) 10:05, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Is there any update on trust's collection of locomotives which have been kept more or less in secret for so many years?

Peter Rampton died over two years ago so who are the trust's administrators now and what are they doing?

Over twenty years ago I played a small part in rescuing an ex-Hong Kong Fanling- to Sha Tau Kok Railway narrow gauge Bagnall ( 2228 built 1924) locomotive, one of two, which had finished their working days in the sugar cane fields of the Philipines. The locomotve was acquired by Hong Kong's Mass Transit Railway Corp ( MRTC) with the intention of rebuilding one and displaying the other in Hong Kong's small railway museum. One locomotive was put on display in Hong Kong but the other lay lingering in the MTRC's workshops for some years. Later we were told it was donated to the Rampton Trust who had undertaken to restore it and use it on a heritage railway. Since then it has lay hidden from the public with no restoration done according to information available. There is something wrong here . The MRTC of Hong Kong was obsviously misled by Rampton. This needs putting right. Chinarail (talk) 09:15, 10 May 2023 (UTC)