Talk:Portraits of Frederick the Great

Deleted images

The deleted images should be added back. Kunst-Theodor (talk) 03:06, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

Just a note that Kunst-Theodor posted a similar message on my talk page; said message and my reply can be viewed here. I dream of horses (Contribs) (Talk) 03:21, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

Kunst-Theodor I agree with I dream of Horses that you may want to rethink the images.

Here are my suggestions. First, you want to avoid MOS:SANDWICH. For the article to be considered a good one eventually.

Also, most of the images are not one's discussed in the article. Images that illustrate the article would be stronger. Alternatively, you may also want to consider creating a portrait gallery. (see the link in MOS:IMAGES for description and see this article on the buddha for examples.

To strengthen the points made in the article you created, the illustrations in the article should illustrate the points in the paragraph. It may take work, but I'm sure you can a non-copyright image of Frederick's death mask. Ideally, images you have accompanying the main text that aren't in a gallery should illustrate the points in the text. Though there seems to be an implicit point that the images you put up are idealizations, they aren't the ones mentioned in the text. The challenge may be finding the images. If they aren't available on Wikipedia commons consider adding them there yourself. (I've added a goodly number of images to the commons myself when I feel there is the need for one in an article I'm working on.) Just make sure they are out of copyright. Most images are, though the death mask can be a little more tricky, because it is a three-dimensional work and may have a secondary copyright from a photographer. However, I'm willing to bet there's an image online that is over 70 years old or already copyright free. Wtfiv (talk) 17:06, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

@Kunst-Theodor, Wtfiv above is citing some policies that apply to the article. I'm willing to compromise a bit, since no one with the capacity to comprehend the manual of style will have the capacity to memorize it all; however, the amount of images you're putting in the article doesn't look very nice, none of the external links you added were to an official site (that I'm aware of), and there's no way an article this short will have a bibliography that long. I dream of horses (Contribs) (Talk) 17:36, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

I do not agree with your recent changes. You have removed two additional images showing the king in older years. Only two portraits remain, both showing Frederick as crown prince. That's not balanced enough. Therefore, I'm re-inserting the two removed images. Three of the external links I have added refer to official pages of the Faculty of Medieval and Modern Languages, University of Oxford, the Prussian Palaces and Gardens Foundation Berlin-Brandenburg and to a commentary by the Cambridge historian Christopher Clark, who is the author of the book, Iron Kingdom: The Rise and Downfall of Prussia, 1600–1947. I agree that the bibliography may have been too long. I have now reduced it to the essentials. Kunst-Theodor (talk) 18:40, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

As a compromise, I removed the portrait of the crown prince by Pesne. Do you agree? Kunst-Theodor (talk) 18:49, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

@Kunst-Theodor Since I'm interested in not compromising the quality of the article, I removed an image and staggered the remaining images. I dream of horses (Contribs) (Talk) 03:44, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

Ehhh, not 100% proud of my above phrasing and the lack of clarity within it; I'm also interested in compromising with you. I dream of horses (Contribs) (Talk) 03:47, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

Kunst-Theodor, this is a different point, but I found, slightly cropped and uploaded an image of the death mask if you want to use that. Again, watch out for image sandwiching, as linked above. You may want to move the Graff down a couple of paragraphs.. Also, it is usual to have the faces looking at the text, so you might also want to move Knobeldorff to the right and graph to the left.

Again, I'd suggest creating a gallery. That way you could have a series of pictures of Frederick in developmental sequence. (Just take a peek at the code in the Buddha article listed above to see how to create the code.) Wtfiv (talk) 04:53, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. I have now added the death mask and an image gallery. Kunst-Theodor (talk) 15:53, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

@Kunst-Theodor and @Wtfiv: I've tried to add {{gallery}}, {{multiple images}}, and <gallery> </gallery> tags; they all made the images disappear. I dream of horses (Contribs) (Talk) 19:24, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

Kunst-Theodor and I dream of horses, I've reworked the article a bit. I created the space for a lead and broke it into two sections. I moved some of the images to reflect the text. However, Kunst-Theodor, if you rather move the images around, please do. This was meant more as a suggestion to illustrate the point I made earlier. No problem with the gallery template, I dream of Horses. It's a good idea to add the template if that's the way to go, so I redid the formatting to make it work. I appreciate you giving it a try! Wtfiv (talk) 03:03, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

Good work. Many thanks. Query: is it possible to compare the flautist from the engraving with the death mask? Kunst-Theodor (talk) 17:11, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

Kunst-Theodor, I added the etching as per your request, and I both Menzel's and Hogarth's flute player for comparison. Feel free to modify as you see fit. I think you are on the way toward making a very interesting article. Wtfiv (talk) 18:00, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

Thank you very much. Kunst-Theodor (talk) 19:49, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

Suggestions for this article: citations and images

Kunst-Theodor Here's some notes to improve the article further, if you are interested and have the tme. The references in the first paragraph are not citations, they point towards images on other websites. Using links this way is usually avoided in Wikipedia. Images to other websites is usually avoided, and citations should be from reputable secondary sources, such as books and websites.

I'd suggest getting some of the images you reference and put them in Wikipedia commons. Here's the instructions for uploading the images once you get them. In general, reproductions of two-dimensional paintings don't take on new copyrights. (See image policy here). Make sure to note the appropriate copyright. Every painting you mention is in public domain, so that should be easy.

Then, you may want to add the images to the gallery. I'd also suggest that you use only one image per artist. For example, I'm not sure having multiple Pesne's tell us much different about how Pesne represents Frederick. The main point of the article as I see it is about the variations in he was represented by different artists and how the representations don't quite match up with the physiognamy based on his death mask. I think these suggestions would make the article stronger, and help you gain further experience in creating effective Wikipedia articles that follow the Wikipedia Manual of Style. Wtfiv (talk) 17:41, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

Many thanks for your suggestions. Well, that looks pretty complicated. I don't know if I have that much time for doing all this. Kunst-Theodor (talk) 19:47, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

I have now added some paragraphs and found the following interesting Wikimedia page: Category:Portrait paintings of Friedrich II of Prussia. Furthermore, shouldn't this page be renamed? Kunst-Theodor (talk) 19:27, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

I have moved Portrait of Frederick II of Prussia to Portrait of Frederick II of Prussia by Johann Georg Ziesenis. Kunst-Theodor (talk) 15:44, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

If you are expanding the article, discussing Graff's portrait could be interesting as an idealized source, as it is unclear that it was done from careful observation, even though it is considered Graff's masterpiece. An old source, Vogel 1898, which is in German, says that it is unlikely Graff had any direct relationship withe the king. The article on Graff also says there's little evidence of a relationship with the king, but cites a catalogue (Berckenhagen, 1967) that suggests he may have been able to observe Frederick during a parade. A chapter-long 1911 biography of Graff doesn't mention a relationship with Frederick at all, though it mentions Graff did have one with Frederick's brother Henry. The biography does mention that Graff did his apprentice ship doing copies of Frederick paintings, one a day, during his apprenticeship for John Jacob Haid. Wtfiv (talk) 06:45, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

I agree entirely with your suggestions, and I think the article needs a significant re-work. I also feel there is a consistent issue in this article of expressing subjective assertions or opinions as if they were fact. The article reads more like an essay than an article. For example, stating "Frederick had a prominently hooked nose and little else to make him look handsome" is a mixture of objective fact and opinion stated as fact. Such evaluations of a person's beauty are in my opinion not possible to adequately support with citations (a link to an image is NOT sufficient evidence). In another paragraph, the author of the article writes almost absurdly that in a certain portrait "the artist made Frederick's facial features look far too handsome". This reads like a line from a biography giving the author's opinion and is not appropriate for an encyclopaedia. I have read letters to the editor of my local newspaper with more basis in fact than this statement.

I feel also more attention should be paid to the objectively citable anatomical differences in the details in the portraits, and more discussion should be had as to the extent to which artifacts of the style of a given portrait are responsible for choices regarding the depiction of certain anatomical features as opposed to misapprehension of the subject's appearance. Also, while there is mention of how depictions of Frederick's face changed over time, there is no mention of the extent to which the subject's actual features may have changed over his lifetime. Of particular note is how the death-mask may not be a perfectly accurate representation of how Frederick looked for most of his later life. The main article on Frederick II mentions his protracted illness and it is hard to imagine that his gaunt appearance post-mortem wasn't due to said illness. No attempt is made to account for the way faces change after death, or for any effect the process of taking a death mask may have on the anatomy of the face.

I think a notice should be placed atop the page indicating that the article is under construction and needs work. XECR (talk) 15:00, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

I have done some reading on Wikipedia's classification of articles and noted that this is a start-class article. I have added some tags at the top of the article to indicate that it has issues that users may wish to take note of or address in edits. XECR (talk) 16:49, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

To my mind, in its present state, the article meets most C-Class criteria. It cites many reliable sources and is better developed in style, structure, and quality than a Start-Class article. Furthermore, the multiple issues tag is unjustified. The article does not contain original research or uncited and unverifiable statements of opinion, as its content is based on the many reliable sources given. The links to the images are helpful, as most readers do not have direct access to the books and articles discussing and reproducing the portraits of Frederick. In my opinion, the article's tone or style is clearly encyclopaedic. The tag should be removed as soon as possible. Kunst-Theodor (talk) 13:58, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

I have added many additional references to the article so that the tags can be removed. Kunst-Theodor (talk) 05:24, 5 January 2024 (UTC)