Talk:Precognition/Archive 5

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Edits last night

Last night I reverted edits made by Thelisteninghand. Now I have more time, I will explain why these edits were problematic.

• This edit is very dishonest [1], a paper was added "Quantum Mechanics and the Human Brain. New Properties of Consciousness". Firstly this paper was not written by a trained physicist, the author Andrey Molyakov specializes in computer science. More importantly the added text "Controversial hypotheses for quantum mechanics operating in the human brain, including Orchestrated objective reduction, are cited as a possible explanation for precognition and other paranormal phenomena" is not supported by the paper, so this is original research and is a failed citation. The paper is online in full, it does not mention precognition or paranormal phenomena [2] so Thelisteninghand is adding misinformation onto the article. It should also be noted that the paper also says "Most researchers believe that the idea of orchestrated objective reductions was debunked by a study published in 2000". It is unlikely that Thelisteninghand read all of this paper.
• The other link cited in the above edit is an article in The Guardian [3]. Now The Guardian is used on Wikipedia and I believe it can be a reliable source (I have cited it before on many articles), but this article is not. The author is not a physicist or scholar. The text added by Thelisteninghand "The advent of Quantum biology has stimulated further speculation for a scientific explanation for precognition" again actually fails to what the source says. The only mention of quantum biology in this source is "Radin says studies in quantum biology show that entanglement-type effects are present in living systems (academics from Oxford have successfully entangled bacteria) and he believes the human brain could in turn have quantum properties." Firstly Dean Radin is not a reliable source for anything, secondly this sentence does not mention precognition. Lastly the article does include some skeptical coverage (mentioning Michael Shermer etc) but this has obviously been ignored.
• Text added by Thelisteninghand "Christianity contains many accounts of prophetic dreams and visions, such as those of David which give rise to debate over free will" and a link to the cited source [4]. I have no problem with this paper being cited but the paper does not cite the visions of David. If you look at the paper, David is cited twice on p. 293 but this is original research to claim "prophetic dreams and visions, such as those of David", click on the paragraph and read it in context and I think any user would agree with me.
• Text added by TheListeninghand [5] citing Brian Josephson which is undue and off-topic "These developments may lead to an explanation of processes still not understood within conventional science such as telepathy". This article is not on telepathy. Also citing a 2002 Physics Essays piece is not a reliable source [6].
• Deepak Chopra is not a reliable source, we should not be linking to his books on articles like this [7]
• Thelisteninghand seems to be continuing an anti-skeptic POV [8]

I rarely criticize other users on Wikipedia, and I rarely revert edits (other than vandalism) but sorry these are some of the worst edits I have seen. This is original research, fringe material, sources being taken out of context etc. Please read the sources before you cite them on Wikipedia. Thelisteninghand says they want to open an RFC. OK, Sure but do you really want admins looking at your bad edits? I think you should just own up and admit you have done some bad editing here and move on, its no big issue. Your edits were not improving the article so I reverted them. I apologise for calling them "crap", but these were not good edits. It is bad editing I am afraid. Take care. Psychologist Guy (talk) 20:39, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

As advised above, perhaps I have been moving too fast. It is a shame no one made any comments or joined the discussion but simply dived in and carelessly blasted everything away. The article needs improving, - no edits for about five years, so I spent considerable time on it. I am not intentionally taking an anti-sceptic view, I am aware of NPOV, this article lacked neutrality, contained serious errors, sexist language, duplication and nonsense. Some of these problem have now returned. Read the article and deal with the duplication. My other edits could have been improved not deleted - especially on religion, a heading I created which was sorely absent and which extends the scope of the article, I look forward to further contributions on this section.

I had deleted this, now reverted: "There is no known scientific mechanism which would allow precognition. It appears to require either action-at-a-distance or telepathic effects.[31]" Would the editor who feels this is a good sentence please explain what on earth it means. Precognition does not require 'action at a distance' but action across time. Telepathy, as far as I understand it, is another psi phenomenon usually called mind-reading. I have never seen it used as an 'explanation' for precognition and it is not a 'scientific mechanism'.

It is simply wrong to say there are no known 'scientific mechanisms' which 'allow' precognition. Be certain - we are not saying they would prove the existence of, we are saying allow. Of course t-symmetry does allow retrocausation so that IS a 'scientific mechanism' which 'allows' backwards-in-time transfer of information - implying a possible mechanism. Awkward scientific fact? Or WP:OR? Furthermore it is actually the mechanism frequently speculated to play a role in precognition by a number of notable (banned) authors. The citation for this is not filled out and I can understand why. It is "Quantum Leaps in the Wrong Direction. Where real science ends and pseudoscience begins" Publicity seeking sceptics handbook "UFOs and the extraterrestrial life.. out of body experiences..astrology" Unreliable source imo. Delete. Again.

Apart from these calamities, I accept points about 'fringe' authors. But this is the nub of the problem as outlined in discussions above. The argument has moved in the 21st C into conjecture about quantum biology. Any reader coming to this article will find it strangely absent. There should be, must be, a way of indicating this. Nearly all my refs. to QM taken out. So how to make this 'complete' without 'fringe' being a problem, is 'catch 22'. Precognition is a common and persistent social and cultural phenomenon and the article should be constructed and governed to allow proper exposition of the subject.

I'll hold on the RfC or other interventions and give the article some time for improvement, but it won't be acceptable as 'good' the way it is now. (granted, maybe not before either, but some aspects have been improved) Looking forward to seeing some contributions. Thelisteninghand (talk) 16:34, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

First, can I ask you to please learn how to indent your comments so that the flow of discussion is intelligible to other editors. If you are unsure, you can first check the wiki markup code used by other editors, or if that doesn't make sense you can always ask.

To answer your points on "There is no known scientific mechanism which would allow precognition. It appears to require either action-at-a-distance or telepathic effects.[31]". The first sentence is correct, but the second is garbage. Precognition breaks temporal causality, in that the precognised event causes an effect in the subject prior to the event itself. There is indeed no known scientific mechanism which would allow temporal causality to be broken at the macroscopic level, quantum speculations notwithstanding. However, as noted parapsychologist J. W. Dunne among others have theorised, precognition is of a subsequent personal experience and not of the external event experienced, thus action-at-a-distance is not involved. Similarly, he regarded telepathy as a much rarer event, involving as it does two minds not one. So the second sentence is transparently wrong. I do not have the cited source to hand, but I'll bet it is not that stupid. For now I'll update the bullet point accordingly and tag it in place of the suspect citation. It should be easy enough to cite the problem of causality; probably Burge or Hyman would do, as cited in the longer explanation which follows after the bullet list, but I don't have those either. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 17:12, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

Read the article and deal with the duplication. @Thelisteninghand, not sure what duplication you mean. If you mean statements in the article body being duplicated in the article lead, that is the function of WP:LEAD: to summarize important points contained in the article body. - LuckyLouie (talk) 17:31, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

Thelisteninghand you inserted the text "Experimental evidence from high-energy physics suggests that this cannot happen except for states of special equilibrium where T-symmetry or 'time reversal' is shown". This is not supported by the source, the source does not mention T-symmetry or time reversal. John Taylor's book can be found on archive.org pp. 82-83 does not support what you added. I understand you want to improve this article but you are not reading the sources, we can't add in stuff that is not in the sources, that would be original research. As for Quantum Leaps in the Wrong Direction let me find the source and see what it exactly says. Someone may have mispresented it but it does appear to be a reliable source. Psychologist Guy (talk) 17:42, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

OK accepted. I didn't write "experiments in high energy.. etc" I modified it believing the ref to WP page would suffice. Apologies.Thelisteninghand (talk) 18:03, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

I'll answer some of these points, but I don't wish to become a bore. While I do 'own up' to some bad edits, I take exception to being called 'very dishonest' so I am forced to clear my name. The alleged 'very dishonest edit' contains a citation to a paper. 1)The author is a computer scientist - I thought that was good as he is outside of the 'paranormal' 'fringe' and would be acceptable. 2) It's from 2020 and therefore reflects current thinking in an excellent brief summary of three hypotheses. 3)The paper does not mention precognition but it does say "But at least they demonstrate that a strange quantum theory makes us think about strange things." An intelligent reader will understand the implications and it is necessary, in my and other's views, that quantum mind theories must be aired within this article as they form the bulk of the sympathetic arguments now. I read the paper in full before I cited it of course. The assumption that I did not is very offensive. I described the theories as controversial, not least because of the reference in the paper which is quoted at me above. Orch OR continues to be researched today. In vitro results may be published later this year.

The Guardian is an excellent source often used here. I am using it to demonstrate that the discussion around QM in precognition happens, and it happens in popular public forums. (NOT just among the 'parapsychology community') It is a good article written by an established reporter. It states exactly the argument that WP appears to be desperate not have shown. The fact that the article contains quotes from both Josephson and Radin is not a good reason to delete it. I stand by its inclusion. If more needs to be said on it, then edit, don't delete without discussion.

The bulk deletion has caused further problems in this article which are still now to be sorted. The re-inclusion under 'Popular belief' of the sexist and irrelevant passage on belief in magic is more off-topic than anything I have added. This is not an article about magic or superstition. Nowhere do we call precognition any form of magic, nor do we say it is superstition. The passage is offensive, sexist, off-topic and irrelevant. It must be deleted. My apologies for 'banging on' but we're nowhere near 'good' yet.

In conclusion I'll say that it is necessary to tack close to the wind with this subject and perhaps I've capsized. I am willing to do that in pursuance of balance. Thelisteninghand (talk) 18:08, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

You are right that the gender-specific allegations are far from the mainstream (originating from a lone and unconfirmed primary source), thank you for pointing that out. I have deleted them. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 18:47, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

On the remark that "Some studies have been carried out on psychological reasons for such a belief," I notice that there is a growing trend these days to carry out studies on psychological reasons for holding sceptical beliefs. Touché! — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 18:54, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Thanks very much. Re your last point, can you cite something? Also precognition is most certainly discussed in religion, philosophy, re reverts in the leader. CheersThelisteninghand (talk) 19:59, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Here is one that I have noted. I recall seeing others in passing. I would not advise attempting to cite it on Wikipedia!

• Etzel Cardeña; "The Unbearable Fear of Psi: On Scientific Censorship in the 21st Century", Journal of Scientific Exploration, 29(4), 2015, pp.601-620.

As for religion, precognition is not a thematic thing, in the way that it is in much imaginative literature. Philosophical discussions go on about everything imaginable (and sometimes also the unimaginable), but that does not mean the philosophy is especially relevant to the topic. The odd philosopher or so appear in the discussion and citations here, and that is enough. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 21:22, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

"Delusion"

Strong word which does not appear in the citation. WP:OR Suggest it be deleted.Thelisteninghand (talk) 22:59, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

I have substituted the descriptor used in the cited source. If other editors wish to restore the stronger term, they are welcome to find sources for it. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 09:45, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

Thanks but the citation is wrong and 'irrational' doesn't appear in the text either. The citation is duplicated and is the Greenaway paper on control found under 'Popular Belief' and is not about psychiatry but psychology. There is no medical context for the sentence. Precognition is not a medical condition (we don't say it is). Who is saying this? It is uncited opinion WP:OR. NB This sentence appeared on the page shortly after my first edit. I don't wish to cast aspersions but I believe there may be another reason why it's there. Been trying to use the edit review tools to find out more. Cheers. Thelisteninghand (talk) 16:39, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

The word "irrational" is used several times in the cited source, e.g. "It seems strange considering humans are more scientifically and intellectually advanced than ever before, that irrational beliefs about precognition can persist and be maintained" so it could not be more clear that mental health professionals consider belief in precognition irrational. However this should be framed within the overall context given by the source, i.e. the premise of the paper: "We posit therefore that belief in precognition is a predictive control strategy that people can turn to when feeling low in control. As a result, we hypothesize that loss of control will cause an increase in belief in precognition". - LuckyLouie (talk) 17:02, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

I take the point about the cited source not being aimed at clinical practice. Its context is in psychology, so I have amended the article accordingly. I would caution that in my experience it is very seldom that Machiavellian evil explains an edit on Wikipedia where plain thoughtlessness also offers an explanation. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 17:25, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. The previous sentence starts "Precognition contradicts" and is followed by a quote from the cited paper which actually reads: "While the meta-analysis briefly discusses this implication (Mossbridge et al., 2012), the authors are seemingly unaware of the far-reaching consequences of their claims: they effectively invalidate most of the neuroscience and psychology literature, from electrophysiology and neuroimaging to temporal effects found in psychophysical research. Thus, it seems justified to ask for extraordinary evidence to support claims of this magnitude (Truzzi, 1978; Sagan, 1995)." So, the quoted statement is about claims made by Julia Mossbridge, NOT about precognition - WP:SYNTH. Interestingly, at the conclusion the paper states "Not only does our present understanding fail to explain everything about the universe, we must accept that we will never explain everything. Importantly, this also means that we must always remain skeptical of any claims but especially our own" (There's more on Bem there from 2014, not concluded in 2012 as article states) Thelisteninghand (talk) 17:28, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

Just to add this is all under 'Violation of the laws of Physics' which doesn't seem appropriate to me. Can it be moved? Thelisteninghand (talk) 17:34, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

Medicine and psychology are part of science, so I've added a subhead for clarity. - LuckyLouie (talk) 18:00, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

The citations in this section are to primary sources. We should not base claims of universality on them alone. I am particularly concerned that the quoted criticism by Schwarzkopf also applies, at least in part, to quantum retrocausality, which is an accepted scientific thing. Of course this does not validate precognition, but it does invalidate that part of Schwarzkopf's arguments against it. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 18:30, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

Agreed. Certainly primary source. My problem with it as a citation is that it doesn't say what we're saying it says, it's being misappropriated. It's a very nuanced observation of statistical analysis. The quoted statement is actually about numbers not precognition. Thelisteninghand (talk) 21:19, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

Just noticed we now have a duplication problem, caused by the citation. The 'control' study reference is already under 'popular belief'. The citation is duplicated. Sorry to bug anyone. And thanks LuckyLouie for rejig - looks a bit more sensible. Cheers Thelisteninghand (talk) 21:27, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

Dupe cite fixed. - LuckyLouie (talk) 21:43, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

The problem is that the point it makes is duplicated. Worse, its argument assumes that the norm is scepticism, so therefore it cannot be used as evidence to that effect. One could equally well conclude from its specific findings that scepticism arises in people who feel secure in their future and are afraid to have it challenged. If that had been the conclusion, you can bet the detailed findings would have been attacked by the sceptics. Whether the actual conclusion is right or wrong, without secondary/tertiary support it looks too much like handwaving bollocks. Scepticism really does not need this kind of spurious speculation to make its case, it is better served standing on its true merits. I'd suggest both mentions of this claim be deleted - which rather suggests the whole Medicine and psychology subsection should go the same way. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 22:02, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

It's a mainstream psychology paper published in PLOSone, I wouldn't expect it to treat precognition as a real phenomenon. Mainstream science journals treating ESP, mysticism, and other paranormal concepts as unproven and unlikely has nothing to do with scepticism. It's just mainstream science. Regarding the text duplication, yes, I agree the duplicate mention in the "popular belief" section should be removed. - LuckyLouie (talk) 22:43, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

Yes it is technically mainstream science as one would expect. But it is a lone unsupported primary source and the interpretation of the results which it offers is fundamentally speculative. When I count the number of times that sceptics have levelled such criticisms at sympathetic primary sources as justification for censoring them (I have used it myself in countering EHS woo papers), it is really not tenable to pick and choose one's censorship criteria based on whether one likes the conclusion or not. Scepticism deserves better. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 11:06, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

I don't care whether it's mainstream or not. It's analysis of Bem's work and belongs there if anywhere. The editor has chosen the word 'CONTRADICTS' and that is my main objection because the paper says: "Statistical inference, regardless of whatever form it takes, only assigns probabilities. It cannot ever prove or disprove a theory." This statistical meta-analysis is simply yet another speculative opinion on Bem's experiments. Put it there or delete. Thelisteninghand (talk) 14:26, 4 February 2022 (UTC) NB There are a total of FIVE cites to meta analysis of Bem's paper.Thelisteninghand (talk) 14:47, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

Article Structure/Due and undue weight

I think the structure of this article may not be respecting NPOV by its structure. The guidelines say:

'Neutrality requires that mainspace articles and pages fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources'

and

'Segregation of text or other content into different regions or subsections, based solely on the apparent POV of the content itself, may result in an unencyclopedic structure, such as a back-and-forth dialogue between proponents and opponents.[1] It may also create an apparent hierarchy of fact where details in the main passage appear "true" and "undisputed", whereas other, segregated material is deemed "controversial", and therefore more likely to be false. Try to achieve a more neutral text by folding debates into the narrative, rather than isolating them into sections that ignore or fight against each other.'

'Scientific Criticism' falls foul of this rule I think. But to call it 'scientific debate' probably goes too far, I'd suggest 'Science'. The material really needs representing in a neutral manner, so I am giving this some further thought. Some of the science is seriously out of date also, which I'm researching now and will come back to. Thelisteninghand (talk) 16:12, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

I'd agree with some of what you say. Looking at other articles on parapsychology subjects, "Scientific reception" is typically used; I'll change it here accordingly. Most also put the science near the end, with the "pseudoscience" verdict as often as not discussed in a subsection of that. So I wonder whether a useful start here might be to merge the section on Cultural impact back up into the main History section. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 17:02, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

Yes, that would be a solution, but what would the section heading be then? I can't see an easy route to merge. On Cultural Impact, the claim that premonitions have changed the course of history is uncited and my cn was removed. I can't think of a single example (the paradox problem) - seems an unexplained mystery. Heading is an improvement.

Many parapsychology topics have a definitional section at the beginning. How about adding it as "Precognitive phenomena" and including the first part of the cultural impact, along with the subsection on religion? Dunne can be merged into his bit of the History. The Shakespearean and F&SF fancruft can usefully drop out of sight, though perhaps Philip K Dick is notable enough to find his place in History too. Not sure about Olaf Stapledon; he is among those who explicitly namecheck Dunne but is only modestly supported by secondary sources. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 17:16, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

Thinking about this, would 'Social phenomena' be good I wonder. The famous that come to my mind that a reader might expect - Nostradamus, Titanic, Lincoln's death dream, 9/11. Questions arise no doubt. Cheers. Thelisteninghand (talk) 23:34, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

No, "social phenomena" is no substitute for "History", I have reverted it. Maybe as a new section in between the history and the science, but I think we'd need to see how the history pans out first. Also, this "same as foresight" thing is just wrong; foresight is about wise thinking ahead - proactively thinking through an abstract vision, precog is about psychically seeing what is ahead - passively experiencing a concrete vision. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 09:38, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

Agreed. Great improvements to header - I was fishing for what else might be included, is there anything we are obviously missing (like Nostradamus)? And why has 'literature' vanished? Not that I care. Cheers Thelisteninghand (talk) 15:49, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

Nostradamus was more about prophecy than direct precognition; I'd leave him to the more appropriate articles. As for the literature, several references had induced little literary discussion, and those that had seemed to fit better into their respective historical periods than collected outside them, so I moved them there. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 16:11, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

Still wondering what to do about the tachyon bollocks. This is short and concise but not a cite for here,https://www.21stcentech.com/time-run-backwards/ Cheers! Thelisteninghand (talk) 15:53, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

Ignore it. Run away and hide. It is nothing but - well, what you just said. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 17:19, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

No! Citation is Taylor 1980 discussing QM theory of the 1960s. It must be updated or deleted, so it could be an RfC for science editors. Information passing backwards in time does not rely on a superluminal particle. It's wrong. Apart from that, the tachyon theory was an attempt to explain backwards causation which was already a problem. I take on your suggestion above, I'll try to do that. Thelisteninghand (talk) 17:52, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

Generally Considered Pseudoscience - what we may say

Precognition is not in the top category of 'obvious pseudoscience' but the second category 'generally considered pseudoscience':

"Theories which have a following, such as astrology, but which are generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community may properly contain that information and may be categorised as pseudoscience."

The article may contain the relevant information. This would include 'further reading' and potentially some of the material deleted by Psychology Guy. Without casting aspersions I believe there may be an element of pseudoscepticism in the history of this article. That may account for why nearly every heading on this talk page is about bias. If we aim for it to be a good article the voices of respected psychologists and other notable authors with a sympathetic view must be referenced. Again "May properly contain that information". What, then, are we missing to get this to 'excellent'? (the blank space that is '21st century'?) Thelisteninghand (talk) 21:14, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

All that quote from the WP:PSEUDOSCIENCE policy says is that such an article may state that the topic has a following but is generally considered pseudoscience. The policy also expands on the requirement that "Any inclusion of pseudoscientific views should not give them undue weight.". What potentially throws a spanner in the pseudosceptical works is the WP:FRINGE/QS guideline which states "Hypotheses which have a substantial following but which critics describe as pseudoscience, may contain information to that effect; however it should not be described as unambiguously pseudoscientific while a reasonable amount of academic debate still exists on this point.". Is that the case with parapsychology? Academic debate demonstrably continues on in the 21st century, but is it a "reasonable amount"? The ArbCom ruling at the top of the page takes precedence over such mere guidelines. It defers to the US government's National Science Foundation, which decrees that parapsychology is full-blown pseudoscience. The fact that other US government agencies, at the front line of research, sometimes disagree is lost on ArbCom and therefore also on Wikipedia. But we should still represent NPOV as set out in the banner here. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 09:22, 9 February 2022 (UTC) [Updated 09:45, 9 February 2022 (UTC)]

nearly every heading on this talk page is about bias I think you need to read WP:YWAB, especially the references. --Hob Gadling (talk) 09:47, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

"It is not recommended to reply to another editor with a link to this essay (for example WP:YWAB)." (I note this in wry humour, not in anger, and I hope that it will be received as such). To be fair, individual articles do sometimes exhibit excessive bias, but yes it is easy to confuse our systemic policy with bad editing. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 11:07, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

Clearly I need to learn how to do green writing.

The discussion is about due and undue weight really. In the 21st century the entire debate on precognition has moved into the field of quantum biology and quantum mind. Such hypotheses are postulated by Nobel prizewinning physicist Sir Roger Penrose and neuroscientist Prof. Stuart Hameroff among others. The books I cited discuss at length the implications of these hypotheses for precognition in much the same way as in the 20th C, Dunne discusses Serialism. These hypotheses have substantial following (and funding) and there is a reasonable amount of debate. Precognition may not be like other paranormal experiences insofar as it appears to affect a large proportion of the population and it has always attracted sustained scientific interest which continues to this day. We cannot simply call every sympathetic author fringe and refuse to allow them a voice. The article is comical for the way it abruptly ends at 21st C. We close down the debate by citing quantum physics from 1960. There's no tachyon therefore precognition doesn't exist, Ha Ha Ha. Any reader who has a remote idea would simply laugh. There should be at least one paragraph noting the current research hypotheses and the detractors and drag this article out of the last century. For editors who are carrying out improvements, it's looking and reading much better. Thelisteninghand (talk) 15:01, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

You have made all these complaints before and been answered. If you don't like the community consensus imposed by our highest authority, the Arbitration Committee, then you will be better off putting up your material elsewhere (as I sometimes do: I am as sceptical of the pseudosceptics as I am of the fruitloops, and they don't like that here). Keep Wikipedia content within its imposed bounds, and you will be fine. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 16:34, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. I wonder if you read that paper. No it didn't mention precognition, it mentioned psi and quantum physics with particular reference to causality, which was the proof of the sentence I wrote. It was written by a physicist. As for my complaints being answered, they haven't. Rules are for challenging, envelopes for pushing. ArbCom might well be interested in these arguments, being more rational than some of this page. Cheers Thelisteninghand (talk) 20:39, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

Linking that lot to precognition without a direct source for the link is original research and forbidden on Wikipedia. If you imagine that Arbcom will give you the time of day on this, you have an unpleasant surprise coming. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 21:36, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

OK Thanks. I read some interesting logs about pseudosceptic editors and there remains some doubt in my mind. Thanks for the advice. The article is greatly improved now and I'll try a submission for 'good'. Thelisteninghand (talk) 15:39, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

Reading the GA nomination process and the review from last time. Interesting, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Peer_review/Precognition/archive1 I'll wait a few days to let the article 'settle' and allow any further tweaking. Thelisteninghand (talk) 17:16, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

Deja Vu

We have Déjà Vu as an 'alternative explanation' for precognition. I don't consider that correct as it is another form of precognition phenomenon, not an explanation. Are we saying that temporal lobe epilepsy is an alternative explanation? Confusing to the reader I think and needs clarifying or deleting. Thelisteninghand (talk) 17:05, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

I checked our article on deja vu and Britannica on paramnesia and confabulation; what conceptual muddles and confused writing! Fortunately, this paper in the American Journal of Psychiatry is of an altogether higher standard. It lists eight English-language synonyms for deja vu, going on to suggest "reduplicating paramnesia" as yet another -- and explicitly excluding it from being "actualized precognition" (meaning that "the subjective impression that the present situation has been foretold"). So, a flat contradiction of what Britannica claims. At the very least, our bullet point is really two - one each for deja vu and identifying paramnesia. The latter certainly has a place in the list. Deja vu might too, though it will need a positive citation for the claim, if it is to stand up to its debunking in Sno's paper. Maybe cite both the sources I have used here, and point out that this explanation is contentious? — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 18:23, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

Now done. Even if the deja vu "explanation" is spurious, it needs keeping (but questioning/rebutting) as it has been offered often enough by pseudo/sceptics. I also tagged some other uncited explanations. I think all the list entries could usefully be expanded with examples, along the lines of the Nostradamus analysis. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 08:39, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. Maybe I'm missing something obvious. Deja Vu is an alternative explanation for precognition? I don't agree. I think it is an entirely different phenomenon with its own explanation (and article) which is largely unrelated to precognition. Deja Vu shouldn't be in this section but moved to 'see also'. I also read some of the other explanations as being extremely similar - memory bias, retrofitting and paramnesia all have very similar wording. There may be nuances which I am overlooking but I wonder what the reader can make of this. I'd prefer a merge of some points but maybe I'm wrong. I don't think the coincidence argument has ever stood on two legs - just a blanket non-explanation of anything, but I realise it is offered by science. It is more wacky than suggesting Orch OR in my opinion. We have a lot of cns now. Cheers. Thelisteninghand (talk) 17:00, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

I agree with you about deja vu, as does Sno writing in the American Journal of Psychiatry. Deja vu and precognition have distinct and incompatible phenomenological qualities. But the more ignorant sceptics have touted it often enough to deserve discussion here. Funnily enough, I lack the enthusiasm to go dig out an ignorant but reliable sceptical reference. When someone does, we can add Sno as a counter-claim to it. I think you have a point about the others, too. But we must be careful not to suggest equivalence of false memory mechanisms; even though they are essentially one and the same criticism in marginally different guises, saying so would be original research. Maybe something like, "False memories, such as [specific mechanisms], where the memory of a non-existent precognitive event is formed after the real event has occurred." — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 18:55, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

Done. Retrofitting did not fit with the others in the end, it is more about false interpretation of the record than a false memory as such. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 09:05, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

Thank you. Yes, the word quagmire comes to mind. I'll have a look for citations on deja vu. You've used the word 'incompatible' and I'd agree, they are two very different things. And I agree about trying to differentiate memory syndromes, I pity the poor reader though. Your last sentence raises a wry smile. Cheers! Thelisteninghand (talk) 18:22, 17 February 2022 (UTC) Oh! Done. It's good. Will come back to other cns. cheers Thelisteninghand (talk) 18:30, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

Medicine and psychology

Is this subsection justified? The first sentence, on contradicting most of the neuroscience and psychology literature, is just a consequence of the violation of causality, it even invokes "temporal effects". The second, on irrationality and control freakery, is more an alternative explanation than a scientific criticism. (sub)sections for both of these already exist. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 18:33, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

I agree the heading does not describe the content well and neither citation is particularly helpful. The Greenaway paper is worth a read as it does not overall, give the negative impression quoted but says that 'believers' benefit from their belief - there's the psychology. I did think about changing the quote. The first citation contains this gem “Science is not about finding the truth at all, but about finding better ways of being wrong”. It too deals with Bem again - both the cites in 'lack of evidence' are also about Bem so that's not good. I think the heading can go and the control freakery put under alternative explanations as you suggest. The first sentence is repetition and looks more like something to go in the lead if anywhere. (Having trouble finding sources for those cn'd alternative explanations.) Cheers Thelisteninghand (talk) 16:34, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

Done, as best I can. The Greenaway paper is quite bizarre, one of those "sceptics really should be able to do better than this" exercises; I'd better not start as it will not improve the article. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 19:36, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

Isn't it. My guess is it was stumbled across while an editor was at ncbi. It says more about belief than precognition but that's Ok. I just rejigged the first para under 'antiquity' which was a word mess. It still mentions premonition which we've said above isn't precognition - I don't have the source so I left it. Also I wondered whether we should define precognition as one aspect of ESP - it's mentioned later and wikified but could be in the lead? Cheers Thelisteninghand (talk) 21:30, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

List of psychic abilities has 'precognition or premonition' under ESP. I've left it unchanged. Thelisteninghand (talk) 21:47, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

I have brought it in line with the definition of premonition on the disambig page. I'll dig out Inglis when I get time and see what he actually says. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 11:51, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

A quick scan of Inglis has found no mention of "premonition". Looking at the article, it is mentioned alongside dreams and trances. I'd suggest that all three - premonitions, dreams and trances - usually do not involve precognitive experiences, but that they all can do on occasion. The fact that Inglis does not explicitly use one of these words is of little concern, I have no doubt that other sources can be found. So I see no need to change the current text. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 12:19, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

US Defense Department

This may be worth including under 21st C. Time magazine 2017: The U.S. Military Believes People Have a Sixth Sense "[Are] there ways to improve premonition through training" Lieutenant Commander Brent Olde. https://time.com/4721715/phenomena-annie-jacobsen/ Thelisteninghand (talk) 00:04, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

It is not clear to me that this is about precognition - the article mentions the P word only once and does not attribute it. The program is arguably more about brain processes such as unconscious perception, biofeedback and cognitive training, to enhance intuition and instinct. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 11:32, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

In religion

Does the section on religion add anything to the article? It just echoes the ambivalent attitude of cultures generally. Should it be cut? — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 11:09, 26 October 2022 (UTC)