Talk:Rainbow (Greece)

Discussion

What a load of crap!!! The only Macedonians in Greece are the Makedones which are a Greek people from antiquity... the Slav Nationals only incorporate Macedonian Greeks which reside in Greece naturally, as Macedonian-slavs in their census but fail to realise (sic) or rather choose to ignore these people's Hellenic heritage... Perhaps they should read the Guide of the Perplexed since they have it completely wrong and are a confused bunch. It's sad but for a people who should be proud of their Slavic heritage (from emperor Dusan to later) which has nothing to do with Macedonian albeit(historically undisputed Hellenic) identity, they choose to adopt another culture's identity (as ludicrous as it sounds). And in addition, what's this about Genetic identity that the slavs of FYROM are going on about? Haven't they heard there is no genetic correlation of any of the slavs to the ancient Macedonians-seems like they're entering a losing battle. Granted the Hellenes are not Genetically pure either, but hey this was the Dream of Alexander the Great to mingle cultures and diversify genetics by mingling the Greeks on one hand and the Eurasian populations into a mold of Hellenic tradition, thought and wisdom. (No race in the world is pure, except maybe for the Ainu in Japan and even still they have heavily been Japanised in terms of Genetics). Hence, I'm sick and tired of reading utter crap... get over the ethnicity of it all and get on with being humans. Alexander (Sanser) Ha'Maqdon Ha'Yewanit. Hovevei Le'Ziyyon!!!

Didn't quite grasp all that. At any rate, it has little to do with the article in question. It is an undeniable fact that in Greek Macedonia there are people who speak a Slavic language. This party represents them. It does not advocate seperation or the redrawing of boundaries, nor does it deny that there are Greek and other Macedonians. Just as there are Greek citizens who are Vlach, Turkish, Pomaks, etc, there are Greek citizens who speak Slavo-Macedonian and who define themselves accordingly. The Rainbow Party is not about appropriating other cultures or identity, it is merely highlighting the fact that there are a number of identities in Greek Macedonia that deserve to be respected. It was nothing to say about the genetics or race. I think you need to get over the whole issue of ethnicity. --Damac 07:25, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

The people in Greek Macedonia who speak a slavic dialect and share a non-Hellenic consciousness are those of Bulgarian and Slavic descent. To attribute a Hellenic phylum to a Bulgarian nationality or a Slavic nationality disrespects a culture's identity in the region, namely the "autochthonous" population of the region i.e. the Macedonian-Hellenes. I shouldn't have to justify the reasoning for expressing such historical truths as it's discussed elsewhere. Those who do speak slavic but have a Hellenic consciousness were effected by Bulgarian komitatzides' (documented cases of enforced Bulgarian terrorism) but are considered Greeks. This party in no way, shape or form identifies itself with this minority. The only "minority" it seems to protect are the separatist views of a few hundred or perhaps a few thousand slavic speakers (albeit of a non-(Macedonian) Hellenic consciousness) left over by Yugoslav Communists in the region, in so doing to fuel a separatist state (just look at all the nationalistic crap websites perpetrated forth by the Slavic brethren of FYRO Vardarska, as the name should rightfully be until it was changed by Gen Marshall Tito in 1944 - look up the Foreign Office Records in Britain... if you can get in). The only "Macedonian" (SIC) consciousness they do have, is one that was developed fraudulently in the first Balkan wars and even later (infact IMRO was formerly known as BulgarianMRO and to this day many Macedonian (SIC) - Slavs have dual citizenship (check EU records).

I do agree there are minorities in Greece but Macedonian-Slavonic in the truest sense of the word there are not... There are 1.5 million Macedonians who are Greeks in the region the rest having come from Turkey (Pontians to name a few, who are Greeks themselves and have as much right to be Macedonian due to inter-marriage of Alexander's troops with the local Hellenic substrata in Anatolia). It's a matter of semantics and history not rights... as I can assure you the Slavs in Greece have as much rights as any but when parties appropriate or rather mis-appropriate historical truths to suit their agendas it begs the question to what extent they are willing to go? Perhaps the party is a terrorist organisation, certainly some of the statements forwarded by it's members have expressed such views across the diaspora (Australia, Britain, Canada). I do not have a problem with giving rights to a minority in Greece, but what I do have a problem with is giving a misleading, often confusing term of "Macedonian minority" - it's dangerous games with propaganda and this is what the party's main concern is. It is also not headed by "Greeks" but "pseudo-Greeks". (Would you like to know Voskopoulos' mother tongue? It is "Macedonian" (SIC) - Slavonic.) Just because Slavs lived within a part of the boundaries of ancient Macedonia does not give them the right to call themselves Macedonian - a right duely and accordingly attributed to those who still speak "Makedonisti" ("the way spoken by Macedonians" - historically this is the only way the ancients recorded the language... c.f., classical authors use of the words "Aeolisti" (the way the Aeolians spoke) or "Achaeisti" (the way the Achaeans spoke" defining the nature or dialect of speech. It does not pertain to separate languages for which there are other terms (eg. Persika for Persian, Arabica for Arabic). As such, the only ones that can speak Macedonian in it's truest sense are those who can speak Doric Greek (akin to Tsakonian Greek) or in the latter ages "Hellenike Koine Dialektos", which evolved into modern Greek). However, that is not to say that Slavs don't have the right to be a citizen in Greece to which full national freedoms are given. Sanser ha'Maqdon ha'Yewanit ve'Melekh.

Whatever. The subject of the article is the Rainbow Party and the article describes what the party is about. The article is not a piece of propaganda; it meerly describes the party. If you have a problem with the RP, I suggest you write to them and let them know your views. The discussion pages of Wikipedia is not the place for political disputes.

May I add, though, that there is no evidence whatsoever that the RP is a terrorist party. --Damac 08:02, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

The truth hurts but that is the way it is. The party DOES NOT represent ethnic Macedonians (Greeks), but only "Macedonian(SIC)-Slavs. Terrorist organisations perpetrate territorial claims - this is what the party is doing (again view websites). Sanser ha'Maqdon ha'Yewanit ve'Melekh.

Oprah Winfrey reference

Cut from pre-intro matter:

This article is the Rainbow Party as a political party in Greece. For the sexual act, see Rainbow party (sexuality).

Following the link indicates that there's some doubt that the "act" referred to is anything but imaginary. I don't think we need disambiguation here. If someone saw this on Oprah, they can search for it using Oprah as a keyword. Anyway, it should all probably be in Rainbow Party (book) if anyone wants to bother to write that. Uncle Ed 22:23, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

• I think it needs disambiguation. The AfD result was that the rumor was notable- ie., someone would go looking it up. They also agreed that it was more notable than the book. I will clarify that it is just a rumor, not an act. CanadianCaesar 03:02, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
  • I agree that this link is needed and added it back. When I typed in Rainbow Party, it brought me to this page, with no link to the sexual activity of the same name. Seeing as how rainbow parties (in reference to the sexual act) are being referred to on news magazines such as Primetime, this disambiguation notice is definitely needed. --Mr. Brown 02:40, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
    • Makedonia informed me that the mere mention of the act is very offensive in the Balkans. I noticed the disambiguation notice has already been removed, and I have made Rainbow Party redirect to a disambiguation page (note: Rainbow Party originally just came to this page, while Rainbow party with the lowercase 'p' went to the disambiguation page).--Mr. Brown 23:10, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Proposal for a move

Shouldn't this article be named Rainbow (political party)? The name of the party at least at its logo shown in the page is "Ουράνιο Τόξο" which means plain "Rainbow". And without known any Makedonski I can quess that "Виножито" means "Rainbow" plain. I think that for the article to be named "Rainbow Party" its name should have been something like "Κόμμα Ουράνιο Τόξο" or "Виножито <Makedonski word for party here>". I propose this be moved. Thoughts? --Michalis Famelis 22:03, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Sounds sensible. Go for it!--Damac 07:55, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Done. I also fixed a double redirect and fixed links to it at (Main) namespace articles. --Michalis Famelis 12:05, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Interwiki

Why do people keep adding an interwiki to a non-existent article: mk:Виножито? --Telex 00:37, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

LGBT

I could swear that when I first read this article months ago, among the reasons for nationwide electoral results, was smthng like "support for gay rights". That's why I added the See also LGBT. I can't find that version now, and don't know when exactly was that, but if anyone knows, his help will be of value. •NikoSilver• 18:33, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Only the other day did I encounter a Greek voter who actually believed that the party was all about LGBT because of its name and flag. There are surely more voters out there who believe this, which may explain why the party polled most of its votes outside of the area it's based in.--Damac 05:44, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

I browsed all versions in history and didn't find the version I was talking about. :-( I also did a quick search in google, but haven't come up with anything that cites it as a possible reason. I am sure I read that before though. Is it possible it could be in any related article? Like Macedonian Slavs or Florina? I am sure it is reasonable, but WP:OR is not allowed... •NikoSilver• 08:50, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

24 February 1999: In an interview with the Ottawa Citizen, Gyordan Veselinov, FYROM'S Ambassador to Canada, admitted, "We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian." He also commented "there is some confusion about the identity of the people of this country."

The party got 5000 votes because it created a common ticket with a communist party, thats why it has so many votes in other areas of greece. furthemore, many ppl thought that it was the gay party. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.132.228.229 (talk) 17:42, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Category:Nationalist organisations?

Would User:Euthymios please outline here why he thinks it necessary to categorise this organisation as a "nationalist organization". Is he not in the one bit concerned that the category is barely populated, pointing to its utter uselessness in understanding what these organsations are all about? What makes Rainbow nationalist?

I don't find the category in any way helpful in this regard.--Damac 17:01, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

OK, I'll add Category:Nationalist parties. Where else do ethnic parties such as these belong?--Euthymios 16:16, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I have already added the Popular Orthodox Rally into the category of greek nationalist parties. i do not know why should we make any exception for Rainbow or Bulgarian Human Rights in Macedonia parties. IMHO, they are even more nationalistic than "LAOS", claiming harrashment, border change, historic revisionism and using terms unapplicable to them. Hectorian 16:24, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, feel free to add the PKK as well. I hate ethnic parties (including Sinn Fein and Plaid Cymru in the UK). Always whining...--Euthymios 16:26, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Nice...

I see the new interwiki added... Very NPOV! Congratulations! It includes the neutral phrase: "Водач на партијата е Павле Воскопулос, според кого во Егејска Македонија живеат околу 400 000 Македонци." Mk:wiki is becoming the most nationalistic wiki I've ever visited. NikoSilver 16:30, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

You're right, it's pretty NPOV. I'm only worried that you don't actually understand what the phrase means... Here's the English translation from Macedonian: "Leader of the party is Pavle Vaskopulos; according to him, there are about 400,000 Macedonians living in Aegean Macedonia." Notice the "ACCORDING TO HIM" part? Don't be so sarcastic. It IS NPOV. iNkubusse^? 11:22, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Any and all ELAS fighters are not allowed Greek citizenship

The article says that "ELAS refugees who felt only Greek were allowed Greek citizenship while ethnic Macedonians were not". This is false. Any and all of the 8000 armed ELAS members who crossed the border had their citizenship permanantly revoked, regardless of any declarations they could have made. Furthermore, it was not after the civil war that the refugees to communist bloc states were granted re-entry but after PASOK was elected in the 1980s. This article needs to be fixed up. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 220.239.96.72 (talk) 05:17, 14 April 2007 (UTC).

To Capricornis

Read the article. Bulgarian Human Rights in Macedonia is the name of another party in Greece. Mr. Neutron 19:15, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I see. But then maybe you should be so kind to add teh links to the turkish and other ethnic parties in Greece that fight for their rights? I am not sure how the ethnic Bulgarian party alone is relevant to this article Capricornis 19:43, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Fine by me. Find the relevant articles and link them. Mr. Neutron 22:17, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Internal

As this article relates to the internal affairs of Greece, the appropriate disambiguating nomenclature should be employed, per WP:MOSMAC. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 12:28, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Electoral Results

The article omits the electoral results of 1996 (Parliament) when Rainbow participated in alliance with OAKKE, receiving a total of 3485 votes. (Getas75 (talk) 20:30, 29 December 2008 (UTC)).

Reasons for the Dubious tag

Please, provide reasons as for why the tag should be there or it'll be removed. And, please, try to think of some valid reasons not just throw random stuff at me. Thank you. --Laveol ^T 07:33, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

It is dubious because this "party" never progressed more then an unfinished website. Had it not been for the website it would not have even been a "party. Dubious, becuase the party even states on its website it has only ever had a membership of FIVE people, you cannot have a political party with only FIVE members. Apart from the fact that since then both of the named persons have reconciled with Vinožito, it is very dubious. PMK1 (talk) 22:50, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Ok, but that's what it says. If you think that it's not notable, say so. I suspected you might be just throwing random arguments and you do so. --Laveol ^T 13:14, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

I still think that it is dubious, the whole paragraph is also non-beneficial for the article. Even if it sourced. What is your opinion before i delete it? PMK1 (talk) 14:04, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

What's the problem with the paragraph? You seriously think all criticism to the party is non-notable? Only one POV should prevail, huh?! I've said it tons of times - not liking something is no reason for deletion. --Laveol ^T 14:21, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

I trimmed it a little, cause I ,too, don't think the party has received "a lot of criticism" for the split. I've also removed the "dubious" tag since there's nothing dubious in the fact that they claim to be representing a Bulgarian minority. Whether they actually do is another question. --Laveol ^T 14:27, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

That is at least one step better, the previous wording was awkward and they didnt really get criticism at all. Ever since BHRM became a one man show. I wont be adding another dubious tag. Do gledanje. PMK1 (talk) 22:43, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Do/vizhdane. --Laveol ^T 10:42, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Lol PMK1 (talk) 12:27, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Ummm? If you mean the "dovizhdane" I just wrote "do gledanje" in another way. I didn't mean it as an offense or something :) --Laveol ^T 20:30, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Recent additions

The info about the Bulgarian customs was referenced with a crapy article on Mina entitled "Bulgaria continues to fear Macedonian minority ". Sorry, I have to say this, but even by Balkan standards the article is too low measured in journalistic values. I cannot call it even nationalistic cause even they try to get something big starting from at least one small piece of truth. To be more precise: 1. Bulgaria does not fear that OMO-Ilinden could take any seats cause in order to do so they need some 150,000 votes at least when they cannot get 2000 signatures. 2. The 1926 census in Bulgaria did not show such fantasy data (I'll provide you with a source if needed). 3. An article having the words "Anti Macedonian activities" repeating so much clearly has some point to make. Please, this is an encyclopedia - we don't need journalistic propaganda essays and especially of such low quality. I've put a POV tag cause I'm not that competent on the incident that occurred during the presentation of the vocabulary. Reading it, though, strikes me as too heavily POVed. We were the good guys, they came and beat us that very much and the police did not do anything. Really, is that the best you can do? --Laveol ^T 18:16, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

removing POV tag with no active discussion per Template:POV

I've removed an old neutrality tag from this page that appears to have no active discussion per the instructions at Template:POV:

This template is not meant to be a permanent resident on any article. Remove this template whenever:

1. There is consensus on the talkpage or the NPOV Noticeboard that the issue has been resolved
2. It is not clear what the neutrality issue is, and no satisfactory explanation has been given
3. In the absence of any discussion, or if the discussion has become dormant.

Since there's no evidence of ongoing discussion, I'm removing the tag for now. If discussion is continuing and I've failed to see it, however, please feel free to restore the template and continue to address the issues. Thanks to everybody working on this one! -- Khazar2 (talk) 03:45, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

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