Talk:Punic religion

Child sacrifice - majority views?

My reading of sources as well as the main tophet article seem to indicate that the majority of scholars agree that child sacrifice took place. I feel reading this article that this is not communicated well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Time2track (talk • contribs) 18:13, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

Melqart

Is Melqart really compared with Herakles (aka Hercules)? Seems like he would be closer to Hades, but I'm no expert. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.190.254.108 (talk) 18:32, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, for some reason he was generally identified with Heracles in the Hellenistic world. And he was not a god of death and hell.--Anonymous44 (talk) 18:41, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Sources

What is the point of this interminable reading list? Paul B 14:45, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Touché. I forgot it was there. The story behind the list is too long and not quite worth explaining. It's an artifact of an edit war over sources. I'm going to delete it and then we should probably start over. Thanks for drawing my attention to it. --Richard 05:31, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Copyright problem removed

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Split?

I suggest that we split off the issue of alleged child sacrifice into its own article because:

1. It is an important issue in its own right.

2. It is unbalancing the article on religion in Carthage.

3. It may be difficult to avoid the section in the main Carthage article being more than just a summary in this article. PatGallacher (talk) 10:37, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Agree that at the moment it's getting a bit ridiculous but the problem is more the rest of the article needs expanding. It's always going to have a large proportion on child-sacrifice simply because there a lot of material devoted to that debate. Articles should only be split if they become too long. Misarxist (talk) 12:44, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

"Carthage was described by its competitors as practicing child sacrifice. Plutarch (ca. 46–120 AD) mentions the practice, as do Tertullian, Orosius, Diodorus Siculus and Philo. However, Livy and Polybius do not." Some of the writers listed here were writing centuries after the event, the only contemporary one was Polybius. The earliest writer to mention child sacrifice in Carthage could be Diodorus Siculus, who was writing around a century after the destruction of the city. Are there any earlier mentions in Greek or Roman accounts of child sacrifice in Carthage?

Is it correct to say that there are Greek, Israelite and Roman mentions of Phoenecian child sacrifice? The Biblical account isn't strictly about the Phoenecians, and is there Greek mention at all? PatGallacher (talk) 11:10, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

inappropriate tone

The tone of several sections of this article reads in the persuasive rather than the expository. We've no need to be convince readers of something to be taken as fact. Opinions or recent scholarly research should be clearly described as such. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.213.147.254 (talk) 15:42, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Evidence for and against the practice of child sacrifice

Concern the God Moloch and the association with child sacrifices. In reading 'The strange world of human sacrifice' by Jan N. Bremmer. I find that he introduces the ideas of Old Testment scholar O. Eissfeldt (1887-1973). Who understood mōlek in relation to Punic molk/mulk, a cogante common name as part of child sacifice terminology. The Imlk phrases should be rendered in the following way: 'to cause one's son/daughter to pass through the fire as a molk-sacrifice.' Suggesting a distortion Molek, a ritual activity, into a seperate god of Moloch.

The Bible entries (below) have the childern passing through the fire. In ancient Roman and Ireland (plus 19th century Slavs) livestock was driven through fires and herder jumped the fires, in what was purification rituals. Roman called the festival 'Palilla' and the Irish 'Beltaine' (the fires of Bial).

Jeremiah 32:35: 35And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

2 Kings 23 9Nevertheless the priests of the high places came not up to the altar of the LORD in Jerusalem, but they did eat of the unleavened bread among their brethren. 10And he defiled Topheth, which is in the valley of the children of Hinnom, that no man might make his son or his daughter to pass through the fire to Molech. 11And he took away the horses that the kings of Judah had given to the sun, at the entering in of the house of the LORD, by the chamber of Nathanmelech the chamberlain, which was in the suburbs, and burned the chariots of the sun with fire.

Leviticus 18:21: 21And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.

Mislabeled Article

I was hoping to read an article on what the Carthaginian religion was like, but this unfortunately is 90% 'did the Carthaginians engage in child sacrifice?' I mean, that should be *part* of such an article, but there is basically no information on any other aspect of their religion in this article (aside from a brief mention of two gods and the fact that Carthage also engaged in animal sacrifice). If that is all the available information, that at least should be stated explicitly, but somehow I doubt that is correct.

It seems clear to me that there should be an article on 'child sacrifice in Carthage', because clearly there is some scholarly debate about it and people are very interested in the idea. But there also should be a less obsessive version of this article, stating what is known about the religion in broader strokes. 96.246.248.112 (talk) 01:27, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

Agreed. I'm not sure, however, if this is because of some archaeological "fetish" for the unveiling of evidence of the controversial, or if there really is an imbalance in the evidence, but the number of mentions of child sacrifice, and the extremely long description on this page seem wildly inappropriate for the importance of the information. This article needs a major rewrite. It's a fascinating culture and a very important link in the history of global religions. 2001:569:790B:600:D4BC:2CBF:9D89:F639 (talk) 03:42, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

Vandalism

Someone inserted random references to The Elder Scrolls into the article. I have removed them. There are no Phoenician gods named Mephalla, Boethia, or Azura that I could find in my research, and Μποέτια, the supposed Greek name of Boethiah, does not transliterate to anything even close to the word Boethiah. 47.185.130.89 (talk) 04:54, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Move to Religion of Carthage or Carthaginian Religion?

As the title is currently, it clearly would include figures such as Saint Augustine. However, the article is concerned with Carthaginian pagan religion. My suggestion would be to move it to "Carthaginian Religion".--Ermenrich (talk) 16:08, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

Support I am for the move, however we need to brainstorm the new name. It is inferred in the lead that the article's scope is the Phoenician religion in Punic Carthage (not the later Romanized and Arabized city). I can see how choosing a non-specific title can be misleading; I was going to suggest Religion in ancient Carthage but even at that, the scope of the article would not be limited to Phoenician times and religion. "Carthaginian religion" could imply that the city developed its own set of beliefs that are different than those of the Phoenician mainland and colonies. If we are going to address later Roman religious practices in the city then I suggest Religion in ancient Carthage, if not I suggest we find a very precise title. ~ Elias Z. (talkallam) 09:49, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

What about Punic Religion, Elie plus? I believe this would include both the pre-Roman and Roman period religions as well as material from outside of Carthage itself, while excluding Christianity, Manicheanism, etc.

Also, you make a very good point: the lead of the article needs to be updated.--Ermenrich (talk) 13:39, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

I'd support Punic religion (as Ermenrich has proposed on the wikiproject). That allows the incorporation of material from elsewhere in the western Mediterranean and matches the scope of the article. Furius (talk) 13:18, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

Punic religion sounds good @Ermenrich: ~ Elias Z. (talkallam) 09:17, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Since I've heard no objections I've gone ahead and made the move.--Ermenrich (talk) 14:04, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

Cut down child sacrifice section?

The tophets and child sacrifice is now handled in some detail at Tophet#Carthage and the western Mediterranean. Should we reduce its size here somewhat?--Ermenrich (talk) 14:17, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

I was going to write a note to the same effect. Yes, I think Tophet can be the main article for the whole issue. The primary source quotes can go, for sure. Furius (talk) 02:27, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

I've taken a first stab at shortening it. It seems like a prominent enough issue to maintain its own section though, right? All the RS articles on Punic/Phoenician religion seem to have a special section on tophets.--Ermenrich (talk) 14:13, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Yes, I think you're right that it is a central issue. Regardless of what exactly happened in them, the tophets were clearly a central part of Punic religion. Furius (talk) 21:27, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Star and Crescent

I removed this text:

According to Whitney Smith, the Star and crescent was first emblazoned on standards and buildings in the Punic state of Carthage, located in present-day Tunisia. Nevertheless, they were widely adopted by Muslim countries, and have become known as symbols of Islam, when in fact, they may be cultural symbols. Likewise, the sun is often represented with the crescent on ancient Punic artifacts and is associated with the ancient Punic religion, especially with the Sign of Tanit.

The first bit appears to be OR and does not match the source (Britannica) which actually says The Turkish national flag colour for centuries has been red, and ships from Tunisia, like private vessels throughout the Ottoman Empire, flew red ensigns. The current Tunisian national flag, established in 1835, contains a crescent and star on a white disk, also long used by the Turks. The history of those symbols is more ancient than the Ottoman Empire, however. Many nations and civilizations of the Middle East from the days of the ancient Egyptians and Phoenicians had employed standards with the horns of an ox or a crescent moon of the same shape. The Punic state of Carthage, which had existed in the same area as modern Tunisia, emblazoned the crescent moon on its standards and buildings, although the symbol was not chosen by Tunisia because of that association.

As you'll see nothing about how this Carthaginian symbol has been adopted by Islam. The second citation likewise appears to be synth and or and is also incomplete.--Ermenrich (talk) 21:28, 26 July 2022 (UTC) Ermenrich (talk) 21:28, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

On further inspection of the rest of the section that had been added, it appears to run afoul of WP:SYNTH and WP:OR. For instance, the sources used to support the Carthaginian origins of the hamsa fail to mention Carthage. There are enough of these problems that I've simply removed the text rather than trying to be selective about it.--Ermenrich (talk) 21:34, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

I think that's the right call. Cheers! Furius (talk) 06:38, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

I think we should go through this step by step, first the hamsa, the article states: "Early use of the hamsa could be traced to ancient Carthage (modern-day Tunisia) and ancient North Africa and the Iberian Peninsula (Spain and Portugal). An 8th-century BCE Israelite tomb containing a hamsa-like hand inscription was discovered at Khirbet el-Qom. The image of the open right hand is seen in Mesopotamian (modern day Iraq and Kuwait) artifacts in the amulets of the goddess Inanna or Ishtar." which in turn its source states "The first known use of the symbol can be traced to the civilization of Phoenicia that spread across the Mediterranean between 1550 – 330 BCE. The Phoenicians used an image of the hand to represent Tanit, patron goddess of their capital city Carthage and controller of the lunar cycle."

Second from the Tanit article the tradition of Omek Tannou which source indicates that its tradition is "berbero-punique" as well as baali farming (idk where to read its source for this one) but in any case as a tunisian arabic speaker i can vouch for that, the later is also present in levantine arabic and hebrew apparently.

There should be no problem as well for the Tanit d'or of the Carthage Film festival as well being mentioned.

Concerning the star and crescent, encyclopedia britannica on the tunisian flag states: "The current Tunisian national flag, established in 1835, contains a crescent and star on a white disk, also long used by the Turks. The history of those symbols is more ancient than the Ottoman Empire, however. Many nations and civilizations of the Middle East from the days of the ancient Egyptians and Phoenicians had employed standards with the horns of an ox or a crescent moon of the same shape. The Punic state of Carthage, which had existed in the same area as modern Tunisia, emblazoned the crescent moon on its standards and buildings, although the symbol was not chosen by Tunisia because of that association. The crescent and star have greater cultural than religious symbolism. However, because they have been widely adopted by Muslim countries such as Tunisia, they have developed a strong association with Islam.", so I propose to paraphrase it as such here instead of the formulation done in the tunisian flag article. Asmodim (talk) 17:33, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Will look at the rest later, but the flag of Tunisia has nothing to do with Carthage, it’s a variant Ottoman flag. As for hamsa, it was not in the sources you cited and WP is not a WP:RS.—Ermenrich (talk) 16:04, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

I'm not sure the source you're using for Omek Tannou is entirely reliable. I would expect some modern anthropological or history of religion religion on this. I find nothing in google scholar or google books on this name.--Ermenrich (talk) 18:07, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Understood, for the hamsa, i will look for better WP:RS, the following publications seems to be reliable with their source (https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/234675429.pdf), there is also this book that mentions its relation with ancien carthage, keyword "Carthaginian" (https://books.google.fr/books?hl=en&lr=&id=s3rM49Gv25wC&oi=fnd&pg=PT13&dq=hamsa+carthage&ots=BigagK4qQ0&sig=id_sWB9BT80uu4UMx7RwM-_xUX4&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=hamsa&f=false)

As for Omek Tannou, it should be researched as "Oumouk Tangou", the french original source of 1975 p29 (https://www.abebooks.com/formes-traditionnelles-spectacle-AZIZA-Mohamed-Tunis/19867372218/bd) using that orthography, this article covers it pretty well (https://anti-artanit.medium.com/ommek-tangou-e8af94b6c39c) and concerning the facebook video i think it was mostly just representative and should be turned into a wikipedia embeded video instead, i'll do that.

For the star and crescent, i think a mention that it was used in ancient carthage emblazoned on its standards and buildings whilst nowadays it's usually associated with Islam should be mentioned in this article, but no mention of the tunisian flag Asmodim (talk) 07:33, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Writing briefly: The book that you cite for hamsa is not an academic source - the author describes herself as "a clinical psychologist and a Jungian analyst and has studied biblical Hebrew for several decades. In her more than forty-five years of practice Dr. Koltuv learned that wholeness and healing come through a deep spiritual connection to the Self within." i.e. she's not actually a historian. The publisher is a "spiritual press" not an academic one. The pdf cites no sources for the claim and comes from a predatory journal (see https://beallslist.net/ ), so it's not a reliable source either.

On Omek Tannou, the blog is not a reliable source, since it's non-peer-reviewed and is pushing a particular Tunisian pov. Aziza Mohammed's 1975 book looks like it is a reliable source. Transliteration of Arabic is complicated, but we shouldn't duplicate the French transliteration unless it is also the standard one in English sources. If there is no obvious English standard, then the wikipedia policy is to use a "basic transcription", ie Amuk Taniqu (Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Arabic) Furius (talk) 19:13, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

References

Citations for the funerary section

@Hans van Deukeren: the section you added is very welcome, but you only have one citation supporting the text. This means that it is impossible to tell whether what you've added is WP:original research or WP:synthesis. Would you be able to add more citations to back up the information you've added?--Ermenrich (talk) 21:06, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

Maybe Furius can also help.--Ermenrich (talk) 21:07, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

To my astonishment it appeared to be very difficult to find publications relating to the Punic funerary iconography, even though it seems to me to be an important subject. The analysis by Carole Mendleson to me, as a historian, seems thorough, reliable and illuminating. But I will try to find more analyses and sources. Hans van Deukeren (talk) 21:26, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

Carole Mendleson has published for the British Museum a book, Catalogue of Punic Stelae in the British Museum (https://books.google.nl/books/about/Catalogue_of_Punic_Stelae_in_the_British.html?id=7LxmQgAACAAJ&redir_esc=y), where she "discusses aspects of Carthaginian or 'Punic' culture as shown by the inscribed and carved stones, or stelae". This publication may provide references (which the Archaeology & History in Lebanon article does not provide), but unfortunately I do not have access to her book. Mendleson's description of categories of funerary symbols in her article is solid (I have seen many inscriptions that confirm it), but she gives no footnotes, and her interpretation of the symbols and their backgrounds may need further confirmation or discussion. Hans van Deukeren (talk) 22:59, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the additions; it's good work. There's some in Lancel, S. 1992. Carthage. Paris: Fayard and in Moscati 1988 I Fenici / The Phoenicians. I think also in Ben Younés, H., and A. Krandel-Ben Younés. 2014. “Punic Identity in North Africa: the Funerary World.” In The Punic Mediterranean: Identities and Identification from Phoenician Settlement to Roman Rule, edited by J. C. Quinn and N. C. Vella, 148–68. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.

More detailed references are mainly to be found in archaeological reports at the level of individual necropoleis:

• Maass-Lindemann, G. 2004. “Gräber und Grabsitten.” In Hannibal ad Portas: Macht und Reichtum Karthagos, edited by S. Peters, 262–93
• Sagona, C. 2002. The Archaeology of Punic Malta. Leuven: Peeters.
• Del Vais, C., and A. C. Fariselli. 2010. “Tipi tombali e pratiche funerarie nella necropoli settentrionale di Tharros.” Ocnus: Quaderni della Scuola di Specializzazione in Beni Archeologici 18: 9–21.
• Di Stefano, C. A. 2006. Vita e morte nella Palermo punica. La necropoli di corso Calatafimi. Palermo: Salvare Palermo.
• Tamburello, I. 1986. “Necropoli punico-romana di Palermo.” Annali della Scuola normale superiore di Pisa 13: 993–1027.
• Greco, C. 2000. “La necropoli punica di Solunto.” In Actas del IV Congreso Internacional de Estudios Fenicios y Pùnicos, Càdiz, 2–6 octubre, 1995, edited by M. Barthélemy and M. E. Aubet, 1319–35. Cádiz; Universidad de Cádiz.
• Bechtold, B. 1999. La necropoli di Lilybaeum. Rome: L’Erma di Bretschneider.
• Vecchio, P. 2013. “Morte e società a Mozia. Ipotesi preliminari sulla base della documentazione archeologica della necropoli.” Römische Mitteilungen 119: 43–67.
• Morel, J.-P. 2010.“Les tombes puniques de Byrsa à Carthage et leur sort à travers les siècles.” In Monuments et cultes funéraires d’Afrique du Nord, edited by François Déroche and Jean Leclant, 41–76. Paris: Académie des Inscriptions et Belles-Lettres.
• Lancel, S. 1982. “Les niveaux funéraires.” In Byrsa II. Mission archéologique française à Carthage: Rapports préliminaires sur les fouilles 1977–1978: niveaux et vestiges puniques, edited by S. Lancel, 263–64. Rome: École française de Rome.
• Jehassse, J., and L. Jehasse. 2001. Aléria. Nouvelles données de la nécropole. Lyon: Maison de l’Orient méditerranéen.

On the Tanit symbol there's lots and, as this symbol is not restricted to funerary contexts (e.g. it occurs on 4th C BC Carthaginian coinage), I wonder whether it would be better to give it its own section... or perhaps to recast the whole section as "religious iconography" generally? But I leave that to you. References for the tanit symbol:

• B. Doak, 2015 Phoenician Aniconism, pp. 61-66
• Lipínski, Dieux et déesses de l'univers phénicien et punique 1995

I hope that helps; eventually we're going to reach the point where it makes sense to spin some of the funerary stuff off as a separate article and reduce what appears here to WP:Summary style. Furius (talk) 23:48, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for this very comprehensive literature list! Before I saw your list, I added to the text a reference to a chapter in the Handbuch der Orientalistik that lists relevant literature and mentions the several symbols occurring on the stelae; and a reference to a Sader quote characterizing the religious nature of the stela symbols. Would that do for the moment? Hans van Deukeren (talk) 16:20, 4 December 2022 (UTC)