Talk:Ren Gill/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Music video Awards

Apparently Hi Ren has been selected by the Prague Music Video Awards for four different award categories in 2023 https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqq3VcwPGseErHUa0-xLInQ/community?lb=UgkxYH8hRyyDeYdxAz88IXd2htPZCKjHF9rg I'm trying to figure out how to see a list of those selected so I can include this in the article. I haven't found the right google search terms These are the categories

Best Music Video

Best low budget music video (under 3k)

Best cinematography

Best European music video Kiwatts (talk) 03:01, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

I found this that lists the video but I don't see the categories https://praguemusicawards.com/official-selection Kiwatts (talk) 03:07, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I looked earlier on, seems they do not state the categories. The event has only been running for 3 years. From what I can see you have to pay to enter your music video. https://filmfreeway.com/PragueMusicVideoAwards , unless I am misreading that. Winners results 22 April I think. 2A02:C7D:B780:6300:4DCA:58:40DC:669D (talk) 04:44, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

From what I can tell you have to pay to watch the festival. Film Festival is how you submit your video for consideration but it doesn't guarantee you will be chosen. The submission page seems to indicate some festivals charge you to submit and others don't. It does look like there is a fee to submit your project for consideration for this festival and you can't choose the category (s) that you want to be considered for.and they don't guarantee anything which is good. Kiwatts (talk) 06:02, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

I would like an experienced opinion (s) as to whether mentioning that Hi Ren is being considered for an award at this festival. I am guessing if it wins that it would be acceptable to mention. I don't know if the source has been / needs to be vetted first. I don't really know how film festivals work. I am guessing this is standard practice for independent productions. Kiwatts (talk) 06:58, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

If you can't provide a reliable source for the nomination, better to leave it off. If, say, a newspaper mentions it has been nominated, then it can be mentioned. However, if it wins then it definitely gets a mention. There should be press releases and other sources we can use at that point. Not only does it get a mention, but it would probably constitute sufficient coverage to take the notability banner off the page. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 09:59, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

Sounds good. I will keep my eyes open for articles. Especially if the video wins anything. Thank you for your input. Kiwatts (talk) 10:11, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

Here's hoping we get to write this soon.

Ren's video Hi Ren won ..... at the Prague Music Video Awards 2022/23 Spring Edition.

They choose the winners today. This is the nominee page and this is where they will announce the winners

It starts at 5:pm. I'm just not sure what time zone. I don't know if the website is detecting my location and letting me know based on my time zone, EDT (UTC-5) , or Prague's time zone CEST (UTC+2). I'm assuming it is using my time zone based on the current time in Prague. Kiwatts (talk) 17:38, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

Hi Ren received Honorable Mention in the Best European Music Video Category at the Spring 2022/23 Prague Music video Festival. https://praguemusicawards.com/winners Only three of the eighteen categories included honorable mentions so it is something worth mentioning. Kiwatts (talk) 21:14, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

I added it. 2A02:C7D:B780:6300:DD64:CE52:E39B:FE7B (talk) 07:29, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

I noticed you did a lot of reorganizing. When you do that you need to make sure the source that contains the information and was cited in it's original location is cited when you move it. You have to determine if the citation is still needed to support the remaining statements in the original location. If it is let it stay if not remove it.

Every statement made must have a reliable secondary source to support it. The lack of citation or an improper citations means the statements are at risk of deletion.

I worked very hard to make sure everything was properly cited. I actually used too many citations and @Sirfurboy had to rework the article to thin out the quantity of citations and make sure it was consistent with all of Wikipedia's guidelines.

I am hoping I'll have time this weekend to run through everything and make sure everything is cited. I don't want the page to have issues other than what is in the two banners at the top . If you have a chance to get to it before me that is great.

I can tell you care about Ren and the article and want to help. That is great! I welcome the help. I'm sure it was an oversight on your part. I'm learning the in's and outs of editing and I am guessing you are too. You might be interested in this Introduction to Wikipedia. Kiwatts (talk) 09:25, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

I only moved the sources that were with the lines that I moved. If you want to check sources I would start with ones that were already there but fail to support the info where they are, like these two:

He was discovered by a talent scout in 2009, when the two were busking. and in 2010, he signed a record deal with Sony Records.

That line has two sources on it but none of them back up the statements as far as I can see. 2A02:C7D:B780:6300:55DB:F0AD:D0C0:B22D (talk) 11:52, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

Thanks I believe we have one to back this up. If not I do and it will let us build on his health information. You might want to change that he received treatment in Washington to the United States.

Washington is actually inaccurate. It was the original plan for him to be treated there, which is why the paper probably wrote this, but there was an opening in Los Angeles and he went there and stayed with a family who had someone undergoing the same treatment. You can't add that information because it came from what Ren wrote or said in a video on his Lyme 101 Facebook page, his me vs me YouTube channel and / or a fundraiser his then girlfriend had. I forget which at the moment..

Because Ren is a primary source and not a secondary source it isn't preferred by Wikipedia and fundraiser sources are not allowed. The fundraiser is closed and didn't meet it's goal so it might be able to get a waiver if we firmly establish notability so it is something to think about in the future since it isn't directly from Ren. Kiwatts (talk) 08:57, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

I purposely left out the town he was discovered in because some secondary sources say Bath and others say Brighton. I felt it was better to leave that out since there is a conflict I believe he might mention the correct location in one of the video sources already there. The idea is to get as much information form a source as possible to minimize the number of sources used and improve readability. I had to learn that one. Kiwatts (talk) 09:51, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

Yes some of the sources are confusing but his timeline from what I have researched is that he was in Wales until he was 18/19, went to university in Bath where he started busking/formed tick the fox and he was in Bath up until 2012, he was then sick and went home to Wales for about 6 months then in Feb 2013 he moved to Brighton. He might have gone to Brighton to busk sometimes before he moved there( I have no idea except that one of his posts on Twitter describing his accent to someone in 2012 says it's a mixture of Bath, Wales, Manchester and Brighton). While he was in Bath he was going to London for recordings/gigs, went to Manchester as well, so it's possible he went to Brighton also to busk but he was busking in Bath as there are video's of him alone and with his band doing it. So not sure if he got discovered by a talent scout in Bath or Brighton but the timeline might suggest Bath. 2A02:C7D:B780:6300:5440:7EE:40E4:5AE8 (talk) 11:15, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

The edit "shortened to America" does not really make sense since America and the United States are not geographically the same thing. America includes North, South and Central America. So for accuracy it would be better to say the US if that is where he got the treatments. Mackey79 (talk) 18:15, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

I would say America and the United Sates are the same. North America includes North, South and Central America. I would say that most people in the world would know that America means the United States and in the English speaking world if you talked about America everyone would know what you mean, if you want to change it to the United States, feel free to do so. 2A02:C7D:B780:6300:C4C7:EC25:1C0B:DBD0 (talk) 19:44, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

I agree that most people recognize American usually means the United States or the US. However, some citizens of other countries in the Americas, both North and South, have voiced that they don't appreciate/ resent the US calling themselves America. Our citizens are called Americans but that is from us using United States of America (USA). I don't pretend to know how widespread this is but it might be best to stay away from using just America. Kiwatts (talk) 20:54, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

This is just one article I found at the top of the list from a search about how other countries feel about the US claiming to America. There are Canadians that have this view also. https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2013/08/america-the-continent-vs-america-the-country.html I did change the wording in that section out of respect for other cultures and the beauty they bring to the world. Kiwatts (talk) 08:30, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

Origin

Ren has been living in Brighton for 10 years and has achieved success there but does that mean that is his origin? While in Bath he formed his first band and got signed to Sony, made recordings, had his song played on the BBC radio also played gigs with his band Trick the Fox. So would his origin be Bath or Brighton? 2A02:C7D:B780:6300:314B:413F:F20F:413B (talk) 20:08, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

Spelling & grammar check

If anyone has the time, it would be good to give the whole article a read-through and editing check. There are several instances of extra periods or missing periods, commas etc., and also some bits that have got a little disorganised as different people have added parts to existing parts. For example, in the Trick the Fox section, the bit about Ren being discovered by Sony gets a little mixed up with info about the band so it's not clear if he was discovered alone or as part of the duo. I can probably get to the minor period/comma edits over the weekend if no one else takes it on. Mackey79 (talk) 13:52, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

I have some things I have been wanting to include. I will give the whole thing a once over as soon as I can. Hopefully this weekend. Kiwatts (talk) 21:26, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Contentious content?

looking at the information note, I wonder if the section about his contract might be reworded to say:

Ren lost the record deal with Sony because he was unable to fulfill the terms of his contract due to illness.

Saying that Sony dropped him because of his illness is not a neutral way of giving the information. It makes Sony look evil, and this article is perhaps not the best forum to debate that issue?

Thanks for all the work your doing! 184.164.126.167 (talk) 19:24, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

I did try to find a source that didn't say dropped. One even said dumped. Originally there was a quote taken from announcement that Trick the Fox would be breaking up that I felt was helpful in understanding their decision. This is the quote

"Hi you beautiful people! I have some pretty sad news, people who know me well will know i've been struggling with my health a lot recently, and was diagnosed with M.E. 2 years ago, something i have been battling with since i was 19, for the past 10 months i've been pretty much unable to do shows because of not knowing how my health will be from one day to the next… It is with huge regret that i have to let you know that this is the end of Trick The Fox as a band.”

The break up of Trick the Fox was in 2013 and from what I can tell Sony didn't stop working with him until he received the Lyme's disease diagnosis in 2015. A disease few recover from. At the time many believed M. E. was a mental health issue and not necessarily permanent.

According to a radio interview done when they were still together they had completed an album that was going to be released once they had a bigger fan base and started touring. I haven't found any evidence of it ever being released. I haven't been able to find the track that was on the radio either. It seems like everything Sony owned the rights to disappeared. I'm guessing it's because the contract was dissolved.

I believe in my research I found an source that talked about his inability to tour and promote being a big factor in Sony's decision . It makes sense since that generates sales. I think it even said something to that effect. It seemed less inflammatory. I can try and locate that again. I don't remember why I didn't use it.

What do you think about changing it to

Sony Records released Ren from his contract after he was diagnosed with an illness that affected his ability to perform long term.

In all honesty, I think it was a good thing he was released. It allowed him to become the artist he is today and have the freedom to create music the way he wants without the oversight and constraints that come with being signed. Kiwatts (talk) 20:54, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

If the sources say dropped, dumped then that should be used until such time we can find sources that state it differently. 2A02:C7D:B780:6300:1980:6C81:B913:9727 (talk) 21:44, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

What is the logic behind directly quoting a (possibly) biased source that uses (potentially) libelous phrasing, rather than choosing a neutral way of giving the information? Does Wikipedia require all information to be a direct quote from a citable source? I honestly don't know, just trying to figure out how the requirements are guiding decisions.

The words "dropped", "dumped", "released from", "dissolved", and even "lost", like I initially suggested, imply a specific approach to the end of the contract for which we don't have the details.

I am concerned about the the phrasing because of the wording in the "warning" against libelous claims in the information notice.

Perhaps:

The contract with Sony Records ended after Ren was debilitated by illness.

(I also think being solo was great for Ren)

It might even be something that could be omitted. Since nothing was released (that is still out there, for now) under Sony, his having been signed for a moment and then "dropped" is a sad little footnote, and not really a contributing factor to his success. Rather, it's mostly just a black mark, an embarrassment, or a big mistake by Sony.

For me, as a fan, it's confirmation I can show to the uninitiated to say "see, Sony thought he was good enough, check him out!", but have they really had anything to do with his career at all? 184.164.126.167 (talk) 18:04, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

Released is a neutral term legally. That is why I picked it. Either party can request release. It doesn't imply fault for either party. Kiwatts (talk) 09:25, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

I am aware that when writing for Wikipedia you should try to remain neutral which is why I am not saying no to changing the wording. Consider a tenant asking to be released from a rental agreement or a company releasing an employee. It works both ways It does not mean terminated.

This might be a more neutral wording. Ren was released from his contract with Sony after he was diagnosed with an illness that affected his ability to perform long term. Kiwatts (talk) 09:34, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

He was signed by Sony so you need to explain why he is independent now. You need to mention that Sony and Ren are no longer connected by a recording contract. The only evidence I can find right now has to be on the internet (I'm in the US) The articles I can find that are from that time period do use dropped and dumped.

I can't imagine Sony letting that be out there without acting upon the claim if it wasn't true, especially since the Daily Mail also picked up the story, but I also know not everything is on the Internet so I have to agree with neutrality. Someone local in the UK might be able to find more. See if Sony raised issue with the claim and if it was ever decided legally or what because of the conflicting views if they existed. . Kiwatts (talk) 09:49, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

Thanks! I was not aware of the legal neutrality of "released from".

And thanks for all you are doing to make this page a reality! 184.164.126.167 (talk) 17:33, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

There are some sources I have found that word the loss of the recording contract in a way that might appear more neutral. One is in a Lyme chat room that I am avoiding using because I want to protect their privacy and have it remain a safe place. (One of my daughter's also has Lyme's disease so I get the need for a safe place to talk) and others are the types sources Wikipedia doesn't want writers to use.

I'm trying to figure a way to use similar wording /concepts without plagiarizing (a big no no) or self reporting (not allowed by Wikipedia). I'm going to see what I can come up with and find 1 or 2 articles to support the wording. What is there now works and is neutral but I would like it to have more substance. It's definitely a tightrope walk when writing for Wikipedia, but I enjoy a challenge.

It is a significant event in Ren's life and I might be able to come up with a way to indicate that and keep it short and neutral. I eventually would like like to add a little more about his illness in the personal life section. I have found reliable sources in order to be able to do that now, but I am waiting until the page can have the notability tag removed so it doesn't look like the article is being padded. I also want it to be easy to see he is notable when we finally find the sources we need to show this. Kiwatts (talk) 18:28, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

How about this quote from the included link?

Spotted on the streets of Bath, the band went on to gather a devout underground fanbase. Sadly, the band's progress came to sudden halt in 2012 when due to health issues, a wildly talented Ren was forced to take a step back from music and move back to his hometown of Brighton.

https://www.musiccrowns.org/featured-post/mc-sessions-spotlight-ren-and-sam-tompkins/#:~:text=Spotted%20on%20the%20streets%20of,to%20his%20hometown%20of%20Brighton. 184.164.126.167 (talk) 17:55, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

I don't think that site would be considered reliable by Wikipedia standards. That is why I have held off using their material. If you go to the About Us section you can tell they will promote an artist in exchange for money. They will also promote artists who don't pay them but they don't guarantee it. They have a page called Guaranteed Promotion Packages that lists various promotion packages and the amounts on this page of their site. The content you are talking about is just background information but adding a questionable reference source is counter productive and there is a warning about sources on the page already. Kiwatts (talk) 20:32, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

It's not reliable because Ren did not even live in Brighton in 2012, he did not move there until 2013. When he was sick he went home to Wales for 6 months in 2012 to 2013. In 2013 February he moved to Brighton. 2A02:C7D:B780:6300:60E4:3F13:FA39:1F05 (talk) 01:17, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

According to his interview on Justin Hawkins podcast his contract expired, while he was sick, so I guess the end of contract thing needs to be changed again. 2A02:C7D:B780:6300:314B:413F:F20F:413B (talk) 20:01, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

I agree and see it was done. I wonder why it was reported as dropped. I guess not renewing the contract when it expired was dropping in the eyes of the media. Makes you wonder. I'm glad the Hawkins interview brought this error to light. Great interview. Kiwatts (talk) 06:53, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

Glad to see the "contentious content" warning was removed. 184.164.126.167 (talk) 05:26, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

To my memory there wasn't one. Irregularities Thank you for bringing the issue/error to our attention. The one for Notability was removed. I am glad we have the right information now and that Ren is considered notable. Kiwatts (talk) 05:37, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

There was for several days after I first brought it up. That's why I brought it up. I said "information note" which didn't accurately identify what I had just read. My bad.

On another note, I sent Ren an email request for photos he wants on here. Is there anything special that needs to be done to make sure that Wikipedia knows that permission has been granted? 184.164.126.167 (talk) 01:18, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

Life was a bit hectic at that time and unfortunately I missed that. Again thank you for bringing it up. I wish it was corrected sooner.

As far as the picture, I did a brief search of the Wikipedia tutorials, and found this section Help:Introduction to images with Wiki Markup/2 Toward the bottom of the information box it has a section about uploading a non free image. I haven't had the chance to go through what's in that section but I will try to tomorrow. I am leaving the link in case you want to look through it before I can. Kiwatts (talk) 03:10, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

If you want to upload photos etc. to Wikimedia commons to use on here, please note that the photo generally must be shared under a creative commons license that releases all rights, including commercial use. If Ren provides photos, you will also need agreement that the photo can be released that way. Have a go uploading a photo of your own to Wikimedia commons to see what is required. If you can't secure the rights then Wikimedia commons won't host it. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 06:34, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

I have noticed a lot of the pictures being used on other sites come from one of his Facebook accounts. I assumed they weren't free use. Are they? Kiwatts (talk) 06:13, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

The correct information about the Sony contract came from the Justin Hawkins interview with Ren which is 1 hour 49 minutes long. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcU4iNM6hNQ&t=2s

The portion of the interview where he talks about the contract was also posted separately yesterday and is about 13 minutes long. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ET9bZ5sg52M

I want to use it to verify the statement instead of the full length clip so it's easier to fact check but I don't know if that would be needlessly adding another reference to our list. I know it's best not to be redundant. I would like to what you think @Sirfurboy Kiwatts (talk) 22:24, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

I am trying to see if there is a transcript somewhere. The podcast is on multiple platforms. Kiwatts (talk) 22:59, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

If there is a text based source, I would use that. However if citing youtube, cite either one (no need for both). The 1:49 length video is fine because you can specify the timestamp. I think you can specify teh timestamp in the URL link for YouTube, but additionally I think you should mark it up by the citation. That is how we would do it elsewhere. So the most appropriate way to do that, I think, is to use the {{rp}} template. If the timestame is at 1 hour and 10 minutes, I would use {{rp|at=1:10:00}} straight after the reference, which will render like this:

Also in answer to your previous question: no, I doubt the pictures on Facebook are free to use. Copyright is a bit of a minefield (and I am not an expert in uploading pictures to Wikimedia commons. I have only done it a handful of times. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 22:48, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

I have been using visual editor so far and have figured out some work arounds to do things since I don't know wiki mark up source editing yet. I'm going to make sure the citations are all there and then see if I can figure out the time stamping by looking at the history here. If I can I will start working on putting the timestamps everywhere a video is used as a source.. Then it's time for me learn wiki markup! Thanks for your patience and guidance Kiwatts (talk) 12:03, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

Timestamp

Dovonex To answer your question about your timestamp, I think the timestamp you have is close to right. From what I can tell you need two digits for the minutes instead of only one. you have at=0.08 and you want at=00.08 instead. That video is 10:09 long, if it was an hour or more you want two digit hour, two digit minutes, and two digit seconds at=0.08 and you want at=00.08

The stem cell transplant information and other information about his illness was covered in the Justin Hawkins interview. The information I put was taken from that interview instead of Ren's Lyme 101 FaceBook account so the timestamp needs to come from that video and be with that citation. It's better to use a source we already have rather than adding a new source. There are some secondary sources we are already using that has information and I also have some. If we can use an existing source or one we are going to be using for more than one fact it's better to use them.

I do plan to go through that video, but if you get to it first that would be great. I going through Coffee with Ren right now.

The bands you added that Ren liked are from that video too. Kiwatts (talk) 20:54, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

I don't think he said he went to USA for treatment in 2016 and 2017 in the Hawkins interview. It is the first time I have heard about it and that was from his facebook Lyme 101. Dovonex (talk) 21:08, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

With the timestamp I don't think you need double digits for the hours if total length of the video is less than 10 hours. Let's pray we don't find something that long. It would take forever to properly cite Kiwatts (talk) 08:33, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

the bands and other times you cited from the Hawkins interview, do you remember how far into the interview they were or topics around those statements so I can click around and fix the citation faster or you can. We can go through it more thoughly when we have fixed what we have. I didn't add what you added so I didn't make a mental note about when they were said and to be honest there was loads of information in that interview. I was only cherry picking for the grey areas. Someone of the things you key in on are different from what strikes me which will make this write up even better. Kiwatts (talk) 08:44, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

Stem cell treatment

It seems that Ren went to USA twice, once in 2016 and then again in 2017 for stem cell treatment. It says in this article that he went for a second stem cell treatment in Germany, he said that in his interview with Hawkins I believe. That would have been his 3rd stem cell treatment then? Dovonex (talk) 21:58, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

he said two in the Hawkins interview. and Los Angeles for the US one. I thought I had made changes to this article online but was editing on a google doc because I didn't want to compound citation issues and forgot where I made the changes.. I plan to get all that info (timestamps etc.) when I go through that LONG Podcast. It is going to take hours. I was hoping to find a transcript to make it quicker and so I could work on making sure we have everything cited properly but so there isn't one. If you spot one let me know. Kiwatts (talk) 08:30, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

The articles do get it mixed up, that is why we need to fact check with his words. My injury made a couple newspapers, one regional and one who's audience went outside of the Massachusetts where I live and their original intended audience. Neither got all of the details right.

I have been immersing myself in Ren's history since the week after Hi Ren came out to see if his back story could be pierced together and did keep that in mind anytime I found details that didn't line up with what other sources said or his posts said if he talked about it. . Kiwatts (talk) 09:59, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

Details to research

At 50 min 40 sec into the Hawkins interview, Ren talks about Blind Eyed with Sam Tomkins going viral and Warner picking it up He believed it got to 47. Can someone find out more about this? I haven't had much success but I am also in the US, no VPN, so I am probably not getting all the results I could from searching the internet.. Kiwatts (talk) 08:00, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

I looked at the official UK charts but could not find anything about it. Although he says it got to number 47, he does not say what chart it was. Dovonex (talk) 09:12, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for looking. If you do find anything please feel free to add it. Kiwatts (talk) 09:25, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

OK. Maybe someone can put up a picture or two of Ren, the big push, tick the fox on his page? Dovonex (talk) 11:05, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

It has to be one that Wikipedia has been given permission to use by whoever owns the rights or possibly a royalty free image. Kiwatts (talk) 17:22, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

I did do search for a free image early on and didn't find one. He probably would give permission to use one he has the rights to. We would need to find out exactly what Wikipedia needs for documentation and how to go about giving it to them if he or another party is willing to allow it's use. Kiwatts (talk) 17:33, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

I thought about messaging him on social media but he probably gets thousands of messages. Dovonex (talk) 20:17, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

Try not to post a lots of sources that lead to so social media. Especially when there are other sources now that cover the information. We also want to give an overview, just like the information about his friends death Kiwatts (talk) 22:06, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

Jayron32 said that Twitter can be used as long as it is Ren talking about himself, I posted a link to Ren's facebook where he talks about himself. Dovonex (talk) 22:14, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

I'm not saying we can't use social media posts for a source. I understand why you used the ones you did. What I'm saying is we really need to make sure to start looking for more reliable secondary sources to use instead if possible and replace ones we have used already.  That is why I put this in the Details to research topic.  (We are supposed to try to limit the amount we use. There are conversations about it on this page. They were helping me learn how to write the article and all about sources. )

Ren is receiving more written coverage now and he has started doing interviews on YouTube. This means it will be so much easier for secondary sources to write a meaningful article without having to spend hours scrolling through social media posts like we did to piece the story together.

We can use what we have learned from his social media and his interviews to search for and find high quality secondary sources that we can use instead of primary ones to finish creating the article and hopefully replace some of the ones we have already used.  It will be easier to have the article follow Wikipedia guidelines if we do.

We need to work on identifying and replacing the sources that are causing the reliability template too.

I need to work on getting the Trick the Fox section properly cited and any other section that has been shuffled first. When I am finished, I will look through my list of possible sources and pull ones that we might be able to use for his medical history. They might not contain as much useful information as something really recent or soon to be written.

Hopefully we can find 2 or 3 articles that contain enough information that we won’t need to use more primary sources and might be able to use them to replace the ones we have used!

I’m glad to have help. Kiwatts (talk) 21:34, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

If I wasn't clear, we can work together to find some really good secondary sources to work with.

I will go through what I have to see if they have enough info in them to be worth using. I have a document over 20 pages long with good, bad, and so so sources on Ren and some on the Big Push. Too many to list here. We can search for the best of the best to use. It's not that I don't want to share. I just don't want to make this topic unmanageable Kiwatts (talk) 21:49, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

This is the article that supports the they were discovered while busking. Even though it says in Bath and I think that is probably correct I want to hear Ren say it or write it before we say Bath or Brighton in our article. https://www.societemagazine.co.uk/culture-1/top-new-artists-to-look-out-for-in-sussex

The great thing about all the interviews he is going to be doing with some of the YouTube reactors is we can use them to fact check our sources and know we have the right information and use them as a source when needed. I hate that we had the wrong information about the Sony contract and perpetuated misinformation. Hopefully we can avoid that from happening again. Kiwatts (talk) 22:09, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

I think we will have to wait a while for more secondary sources, we might get some interviews by guys on youtube but printed stuff might not turn up until he starts playing major gigs(which will probably be summer 2024 festival season) and is noticed my the main stream media. Hopefully it comes earlier. Dovonex (talk) 23:14, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

I am pretty sure the details about Trick the Fox in secondary source form are very minimal. I have really searched and found only a few. We are allowed to include things that he would be reasonably expected to know and use his words/writing as the source (primary) but not necessarily the things that make them/him notable without having some secondary source verification. That is in the guidelines because some artists purposely say things that haven't happened. A few can spoil things for everyone.

You have probably noticed things in the social media that I missed and I might have noticed something you missed. Easy to do when going back through the feeds/posts years later. We can use the things we find for support and include the social media or other current media, videos etc. to fill in details . Let me know if you spot something and I will gladly look for anything we need to support including it if you haven't been lucky enough to find something. It doesn't have to exist on the internet, newspaper articles, and print, videos from that time period probably won't be but could be found locally in libraries with microfich, film of written publications, newspaper and other print archives (the publications usually keep them), or other things you might be able to think of.. Kiwatts (talk) 08:13, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

Plus anything he talks about now is sure to make it to print now that he was the world's attention. Others will probably join in and help us with this page too, like you did! They may have some missing pieces to share. Kiwatts (talk) 09:27, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

See if you can find something to support this line in the Trick the Fox section in addition to the tweet.

In June 2012 they played at the Ravenstonedale festival.

I tried but didn't have any luck. They must have been scheduled last minute because it isn't on their Tour dates schedule

https://www.ents24.com/uk/tour-dates/trick-the-fox

That year the festival ran from Friday 15th to Sunday 17th June 2012. There aren't a lot of named performers on the festival page and I couldn't find a poster or schedule.

https://www.efestivals.co.uk/festivals/ravenstonedale/2012

See what you can find. If we can't find anything I believe we have to remove that line. It's the type of statement that needs to be supported. I think it falls under #1 of Using the subject as a self-published source 1. It is not unduly self-serving

If we don't find anything by the time I am done checking and fixing the sources we can ask if it should stay. Kiwatts (talk) 22:46, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

How is it self serving? The link says that they just played at the festival, nothing self serving about that, maybe if they said come and see us play at the festival before they played then that would be self serving. I don't see anything wrong with the claim or the source. Dovonex (talk) 23:31, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

For the same reason you want to include it. It isn't just history it is something that is a landmark. It's like saying I signed a recording contact without anything other than my word to show it happened. That all part of because some people aren't truthful about those things we have to look for proof they happened. You have to hold everyone to the same standard.

I believe it happened and that is why I tried to find something to support it, but if we can't and I am right that it falls under that guideline it will have to go until we do. I'm hoping you can find something since you are more local than me. Kiwatts (talk) 09:52, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

Because there tour schedule has other venues the are landmarks and I was even able to find them listed as performers on the festivals site, it may be decided it can stay. It will be up to someone with more experience than me to decide but I have to ask for that decision because I know it might be an issue. Kiwatts (talk) 10:14, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

The site listing them as performers was for a different festival, Beach Break Live, not the one you added. Kiwatts (talk) 10:18, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

Chart

I was taking a quick break from working on citations and googled Ren Animal Flow charts on a whim. Official Charts has it listed listed on it's new releases page! I haven't ever seen him listed like that before! I wonder if he is going to chart in the National chart this time? What do you think?

https://www.officialcharts.com/new-releases/ Kiwatts (talk) 20:15, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

Interesting but it has already dropped down on itunes charts, so doubt it will chart here in the UK. Dovonex (talk) 22:22, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

Two other things on the Notability list to watch for are 1. Has been placed in rotation nationally by a major radio or music television network. and 2. Has been a featured subject of a substantial broadcast segment across a national radio or television network. Kiwatts (talk) 09:42, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

Discography

I found a more detailed discography on the German version of this page so transferred it to here and deleted the old discography. Hope no one minds. 2A02:C7D:B780:6300:1C32:8DAF:ECD3:3106 (talk) 21:05, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

I see we have rather a full discography here again. Demos and the like are not notable. Also unreliable sources creeping back in. A reminder to check your sources at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources. We can't use user gneerated content for verification. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 21:25, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

Opps, I failed to check all the sources. I see you deleted a few selling merch and discogs. Anyway, talking about sources, can I use a radio interview with Ren as a source? 2A02:C7D:B780:6300:1C32:8DAF:ECD3:3106 (talk) 23:20, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

I think the more compact discography that was on the site for a while before the longer one was brought back, was visually better. It gave the article a tidier look and was a lot easier to take in with a glance. Maybe it would be better to scale the discography back down to the shorter version? In any case, a separate article could be created for a more detailed discography if needed. Mackey79 (talk) 19:36, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

I agree. Moving the full discography to another page and link it from here. Kiwatts (talk) 19:44, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Do you want to move it ? We need to figure out the wording to direct people to that page Kiwatts (talk) 19:48, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

What do we want to call it. I haven't looked to see how others have named the discography page when it's separate Kiwatts (talk) 19:51, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

I also need to find out what sources Wikipedia approves for citations for discography. We may have to remove some of the information since the sources I looked at and used originally aren't approved. The genres will probably have to go from the tables unless I can find them on an approved site. Kiwatts (talk) 20:18, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

That was the original discography from here. The Demos were actually the titles of the EPs they weren't actually demos. Kiwatts (talk) 00:05, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

There are two YouTube interviews. One from when he was in Trick the Fox and one after after The Big Push was formed.

Trick the Fox interview August 12, 2012 Alwyn Samuel Tudno FM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eX7_XD5fivg

Neutral. “Catching Coffee with Ren | Busking, Screaming Fans & Being Blocked by Calvin Harris!” YouTube, 2 April 2020, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suM19eH1b9Q

I've been rather busy with stuff that couldn't wait. I can probably an find an article in my list of sources if you need a citation for something. I will look into the broken link and fix it or replace it today or tomorrow. Kiwatts (talk) 00:26, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

I was thinking of using the Tudno FM interview but was not sure if that is allowed as a source. It is about him being in Wales until he was about 18 then going to University in Bath and how long he spent in Bath, starting a band and busking there. The dead link I deleted and replaced with another one, if that is what you are talking about. 2A02:C7D:B780:6300:1C32:8DAF:ECD3:3106 (talk) 00:39, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

So a radio interview might be okay in the same way Youtube is sometimes okay. If you can find a transcript, better to cite that then the interview itself. But in the case of both youtube and radio interviews, these are primary sources. The interview is Ren speaking about himself. Primary sources should be used sparingly, and there are warnings about using them carefully on Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons which is linked in the pink warning box you see when editing this page. Ren talking about Ren is useful, but primary sources are not always reliable. What we need are secondary sources. Newspaper articles, published books etc. We know we don't have many of those, but that is why we can't say a lot about him in an encyclopaedic fashion - yet. This will change, I expect. I am only spending time here because I think Ren is over the line on notability, and I believe more will come. But as I said a while ago, Wikipedia is a lagging indicator of notabilty. We can say much more about him on a fan site, but what we say about him here will be much more encylopaedic.

So in short, no great objection to you using a radio interview, but I would prefer to avoid it (but accept that, for now, it may be all we have), and we can only use it for facts about Ren that we would expect him to know and report accurately. If he tells us what school he went to, for instance, then that is good. We can use that. If he tells us opinions of anything, we cannot then express those opinions as facts. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 07:20, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

Thanks Sirfurboy. I had to go to sleep after my reply to anonymous IP address (I don't know what to call you). There are secondary about what is in the paragraph already I believe. I can go back and check. I did a broader write up originally with lots of details that needed to be removed. Many because they were primary sourced. I know quite a lot about him and his journey but am being very cautious about what I write while I familiarize myself with Wikipedia guidelines and I have learned a lot but definitely not everything.

One thing I can say is knowing the information helps you with search terms when trying to find sources that might work. Then making sure they are reliable. I have been looking at the about pages and other information about the source to see if they are bias. I have also been going with less is more until more is written. If you look at my draft you might get an idea of what not to do when comparing it to the current version. Draft:Ren (British Musician)

I'm happy to have someone collaborate with writing this. I'm learning by trail and error but where a lot of people are search for information on Ren and I would love to give it to them I also want to protect Wikipedia's standards and guidelines. It's why we turn to them

Let me know what information you are trying to present and I will help you find sources if there are good ones.

It's 4:42 am here in Massachusetts USA. I'll be back around 2pm EST. Kiwatts (talk) 08:43, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

I actually know a lot more than is written there and have sources I just didn't get around to writing it before I realized I need to learn more about the guidelines. I'm very good at research and finding information. If it can be found I can usually find it so I am willing to look for acceptance sources when needed, as long as my real life gives me enough time.. Kiwatts (talk) 09:01, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

Basically I want to present his earlier life in Wales and Bath I believe he was in Wales until he was 18 then went of to Bath university. In the comments section of the Nation Cymru article on Ren the author says she was at the same high school as Ren in Menai Bridge, Anglesey. Not sure I can use that as a source because she wrote it in the comments section instead of the article. In the radio interview he states that he came to Bath university 4 years before the interview, so 2008, when he was 18. Also would like some information on when he moved to Brighton, I think he moved there about 10 years ago but I am not sure. 2A02:C7D:B780:6300:C595:2153:5E18:4147 (talk) 10:58, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

I had written stuff about his earlier life that was removed. The reason given was (anecdotal and not encyclopedic). We really need to focus on showing notability before filing the early life or the page will be removed and it will be irrelevant . Finding things that are on the list located in the section simply titled Notability. It's a hectic read, that is my fault. I didn't understand what Sirfurboy was trying to accomplish so I ended up making it more complicated than it had to be. Thankfully they have patience and worked with me and helped me understand.

I have found several articles that might be helpful but I am not completely sure if it will help. I don't want want to add stuff that doesn't help and have it look like filler. Several articles are from non English speaking countries and while I can use a translator I'm having difficulty figuring out if the author's are well known music critic in those countries. I am able to figure out that would fit the secondary source criteria and aren't part of a publicly campaign. Their opinions are legitimate. I will add a couple of the newer articles in the Articles to consider section.

In his most Recent Twitch stream, Ren did say if his health is good in May he will preform at Glastonbury and some of the other things he was invited to. He wants to wait until he knows his body will be up to it before he commits. The last time he did treatment in 2016 it took a lot out of him. https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1779183787

He also talked about doing a UK tour during that Twitch session. That is one of the things on the list. He mentioned a possible collaboration with a well known band. Illest of Our Time is about to break a million. If he keeps going like this he will have more media coverage which is another item on the list.

He is starting to get airplay in the US but he hasn't been put in National rotation yet. If he is in National rotation in any country that is also on the list. What we need is to find sources that will prove something on the list of Notability. It's up to him and his talent to do and cause the things to occur that Wikipedia considers noteworthy and up to us to present the sources providing the events. It's kind of like a court of law. I don't know where you are located, but if you can help that it would be awesome. Kiwatts (talk) 19:28, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

Guess need to go more slowly on the page until he does more things to get noted by and have better sources. 2A02:C7D:B780:6300:8820:E581:E098:ADD2 (talk) 03:56, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

It would be a good idea. I'm certain he will be noted, especially if he keeps going the way he is. Kiwatts (talk) 04:01, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

It seems Ren will feature on a single by Venbee to be dropped Friday, Venbee is a charted act in the UK and already has wikipedia page. I guess this could be good for notability. 2A02:C7D:B780:6300:CDE3:4854:9200:825B (talk) 16:36, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

He also did a podcast with Justin Hawkins today which will probably generate press coverage which goes to #1 on the list Kiwatts (talk) 01:04, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

The first article shows how others in North and South America feel even though it argues we should still be able to use it and ignore it's origins This one explains the difference and why using America is grammatically wrong. Long and short of it is it's a point of contention that is best avoided in my opinion. https://crowsneststpete.com/2016/04/20/is-it-america-or-the-united-states-of-america/ Kiwatts (talk) 08:40, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

Personal life

After the latest edits, the Personal life section now opens with the mention of cannabis use when Ren was 15. To me it kind of stands out and draws perhaps unwarranted attention to occasional cannabis use that is probably not relevant in the context of Ren's career as such. I don't know, to me the way it is stated at the moment just stands out a bit. Mackey79 (talk) 19:01, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

And the way it's immediately followed by the mentioning of health issues kind of makes it seem like there might be a connection with the two things, which is not the case. Mackey79 (talk) 19:07, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

Cannabis use is a controversial issue and the way the statement is worded, "admitted to " seems to be making a statement. Wikipedia wants articles to be neutral and not contain controversial statements.. Unless the use of cannabis can be shown to be significant to his career it doesn't need to be in the article. It would likely fall into the category of "Puffery" as well and should be removed. Kiwatts (talk) 19:57, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

Ren did admit to using cannabis at aged 15, pretty sure he has mentioned drug use before as well. He seems to be fine with people knowing that. I believe he does not take drugs anymore or even smoke cigarettes but he used to. Why do things in his private life have to do with his career? Are you saying we cannot include anything in the article unless it has to do with his career? Maybe Cannabis use used to be controversial but it is not now, it has been legalised/decriminalised in so many western states. I don't see a problem with it being in the article, if someone does not like the position it is in then move it, it is only in that position because of the timeline, he was 15, next line is about when he is sick at 19 and so on. Also there are many other articles about people on wikipedia that include their drug use Dovonex (talk) 20:14, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

Ren's songs are also full of drug references. What You want has a line in it about smoking Cannabis as does his retake of Bittersweet Symphony and Power has a line in it about doing Cocaine and those are just 3 songs off the top of my head. If I went thru all his other songs I am pretty sure I would find more drug references. Jenny's Tale also has a line about smoking Cannabis in it and the Hunger. Love Music, Pt. 3 is full of drug references Dovonex (talk) 22:28, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

I know the references are there but adding it to the Wikipedia article for me seems similar to stating someone drinks beer occasionally or something like that. Usually, if a point is made about drug use in a Wikipedia article, it is because it has become some sort of bigger factor in the person's life. Mackey79 (talk) 03:51, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

I have removed the re-insertion of the cannabis use. It is better at the end, but it is still too random. Perhaps he has also admitted to speeding or under age drinking etc., but there is no context here of why we need to know this. As you say, drug use is less controversial now, but in that case it is also less notable. All we have is reference to a primary source (Ren admitting it in a youtube interview). What would make more sense, demonstrating this is WP:DUE would be to find a secondary source that discusses references to drug use in Ren's songs. In the context of presentation of that material, it would be entirely due to say that he admitted using cannabis (backed by the secondary source). But as it stands, I think this is WP:UNDUE. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 06:42, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

Ok, I will put that one on the back boiler then for a later date. :) Dovonex (talk) 06:46, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

While you are here instead of opening a new section maybe you can cover this. Since becoming sick, Ren has said that his life's work has been closely related to looking for better ways to deal with mental health issues.[failed verification]. There is a statement from Ren at the very end of that CNN video and that is where I got the information from, not sure why it would fail verification. There is a clip that they used from Hi Ren in the report and later the statement. Dovonex (talk) 07:42, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

When citing content in a video, you would need a timestamp to the information - especially when the video is not about the subject. A textual source would be better here though. We are asking someone to watch a video on an unrelated matter to verify that he is looking for better ways to deal with mental health issues? If this is something significant that he is doing, you would think it would be written somewhere too. Video links are allowed but have a read of Wikipedia:Video links. They are often not optimal. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 08:08, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

I would like to re add the information about Joe Hughes. The person he dedicated his first album and the title track to. His death had a profound affect on Ren. I was thinking of added it to the personal section rather than including it in the section about the album I would like to know your thoughts. I did rework it so I could really cut down the citations. Here is a tentative draft. It may need reworking depending on where it is included.

One of Ren's best friends, Joe Hughes, went missing in 2010. Ren feels he committed suicide. Joe struggled with his mental health and during the weeks prior his disappearance, Joe had tried to admit himself to a mental health unit but was turned away because he was too intoxicated. Joe called a friend the night he disappeared and told them he was going to jump off the 100ft high Menai Suspension Bridge. Joe had threatened to jump from the bridge in the past. That night a resident in Menai Bridge heard cries of help coming from the water and  "an “agitated” man matching Mr Hughes’ description in Menai Bridge" were captured by CCTV that night. Joe's body was never found but it is believed he drowned. The coroner could not prove beyond reasonable doubt that Joe committed suicide so an open verdict was entered in the case.   Kiwatts (talk) 01:32, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

It seems like it was a major event in Ren's life from what I have read not sure why it would be removed. I think it should be added. Dovonex (talk) 05:56, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

It would take a long time to explain the history behind it all and isn't quite what this area is meant to be. If you read the edit from the beginning and all of the talk page it might be clearer. Several things were removed. Some of which you and others have put back.

Not everyone editing is familiar with Ren, which is good. It makes it so people new to him coming here have an article they understand completely when they read it. I have learned from each experience. Wikipedia editors are a community and they all have the site's best interests at heart. It may hurt at the time but it's never personal. Keeping that in mind helps, and it's all part of the big picture. If it isn't clear why/what happened let me know and I can chat on your talk page or mine. Kiwatts (talk) 09:46, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Maybe that bit you added about his friend Joe is a bit long in the article? Might want to compress it a bit? Dovonex (talk) 06:47, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

is it the paragraph space? It is exactly the same as above with the sentence below added to link it to his life's work you cited. I felt saying he sought help and was turned away was important. This happens for various reasons. I also added the month and day, 3 days after Christmas, since the holidays can be depressing for some.

"On the five year anniversary of Joe's disappearance, Ren announced he completed Freckled Angels, the album he dedicated to Joe." Kiwatts (talk) 06:59, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

I could remove

That night "an “agitated” man matching Mr Hughes’ description in Menai Bridge" was captured by CCTV and a resident in Menai Bridge heard cries of help coming from the water. Joe's body was never found but it is believed he drowned. Kiwatts (talk) 07:04, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

I put the date in proper format and removed the return already and removed text let me know what you think. Please forget what I removed when deciding so it's like you are new to Ren.. Kiwatts (talk) 07:17, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

One of Ren's best friends, Joe Hughes, went missing 28 Dec 2010. Ren feels he committed suicide. Joe struggled with his mental health. It is believed that he jumped off the 100ft high Menai Suspension Bridge. The coroner could not prove that Joe committed suicide so an open verdict was entered. On the five year anniversary of Joe's disappearance, Ren announced he completed Freckled Angels, the album he dedicated to Joe.

More like that?? Dovonex (talk) 08:00, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

The reason I left fact that he asked for help and was told no is that it echoed Ren's belief that there needs to be a better way to deal with mental health issues. I felt it showed the gravity and importance of the event in Ren's life and his future views. It also justified including the incident at all. Kiwatts (talk) 08:10, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

One of Ren's best friends, Joe Hughes, went missing 28 Dec 2010. Ren feels he committed suicide. Joe struggled with his mental health. Joe had tried to admit himself to a mental health unit but was turned away due to intoxication. It is believed he jump off the 100ft high Menai Suspension Bridge and drowned, but the coroner could not prove that Joe committed suicide so entered an open verdict. On the five year anniversary of Joe's disappearance Ren announced he completed Freckled Angels, the album he dedicated to Joe.

Maybe this then? Dovonex (talk) 08:25, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

Already done before you replied. LOL Great minds! Kiwatts (talk) 08:29, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

My version is a bit shorter but never mind, your version is fine. Dovonex (talk) 08:34, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

I the US "beyond a reasonable" doubt is actually an important distinction legally. In the case of death of another it mean the difference between not guilty (and freedom) instead of murder (and life in jail) even though it's highly likely they killed the person on purpose. Kiwatts (talk) 09:06, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

References

Citation issues

I went through the citations and tried to make sure everything is cited properly. Please let me know what else I need to do. Kiwatts (talk) 10:25, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

I just don't get it. The end of the Trick the Fox was something you were okay with and when I said this under contentious content Jay sent a Thanks.

I have been using visual editor so far and have figured out some work arounds to do things since I don't know wiki mark up source editing yet. I'm going to make sure the citations are all there and then see if I can figure out the time stamping by looking at the history here. If I can I will start working on putting the timestamps everywhere a video is used as a source.. Then it's time for me learn wiki markup! Thanks for your patience and guidance

and this exchange is on the page

Can we use Ren's Twitter as a citation? I want to use it for his move to Brighton in 2013. In early Feb 2013 he says he is moving to Brighton in two weeks time. Then in March talks about how he likes living there. Dovonex (talk) 12:35, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

   Per WP:ABOUTSELF, it can be used as a source for statements people make about themselves. --Jayron32 13:07, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

The rules keep changing. I give up Kiwatts (talk) 00:29, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

Not everything a person says about themselves is automatically "in" because they said it, Kiwatts. But "Ren moved to Brighton in 2013" is still in the article, so I don't know what the complaint is. That he likes living there is more relevant for the subject's Facebook account than for this article. Drmies (talk) 17:29, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

That he likes living there was never in the article obviously. You would know that if you had actually been editing this article for the last 3 months. 2A02:C7D:B780:6300:E0B2:564B:927:61C7 (talk) 17:57, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

That wasn't my addition or complaint that was someone else's. I'm not the only one who you interacted with. The comments weren't neutral in tone. I am/was trying to learn here. I was like you had something to prove to me with some of the edits rather than helping me to get it right. You aren't the first editor that has done this. If you looked at the history you would have seen I was working on things This is the second time things have been mass deleted. With that kind of tone and attitude in the comments of the edit reason section. I'm done with editing after this. This isn't a community that tries to lift each other up and help them learn what to do. I thought it was. I was wrong. Kiwatts (talk) 19:46, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

should say it was like you had something to prove to me not I. Kiwatts (talk) 19:49, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Yes, me too. Spent months edited this article, sourcing material and then one admin who has done nothing for the article comes and destroys all that work. Get told by other admins it's ok to use the sources we used then all of a sudden another admin says no and wrecks the article. I shall waste no more of my time editing wikipedia. 2A02:C7D:B780:6300:FCD6:502A:6C7E:327F (talk) 02:17, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

if by Get told by other admins it's ok to use the sources we used you mean me, then I am not an admin. Just an editor who has been here for a long time. Regarding the latest deletions, I haven't looked to see exactly what has gone, but there were issues I had broadly warned about before. For instance, on the song listings, I said: Albums performed with previous bands are not notable here. At least, not yet. If I have that right, that would suggest that a Freckled Angels table could be appropriate, if you wish to try that. It is just my opinion though - no one has to agree with me. After that, all the song listings ever got added back in, but they were not notable. I did point out the issues with the sourcing - particularly with using bandcamp and other user generated sources. On specific questions of sourcing, I have been providing answers, but lost in the discussion above are some quite lengthy discussions about what makes a good secondary source for the article, and how wikipedia is a lagging indicator of notability.

I understand you are invested in this article and want to make it as good as possible, and that seeing material removed can be discouraging, but sometimes less is more. People will more readily read a short article than a long one, and I think you can congratulate yourselves on establishing that there is an article here at all, and that no one tried to take it to deletion (and, indeed, another editor, who I think may be an actual admin, was the one who removed the notability banner I had placed). A last thought - how about having a go editing another article somewhere, rather than just adding to this one? This one will grow in time as there is more to say, and in the meantime, you can develop your feel for what goes into an article by working elsewhere. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 07:24, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

Not you, Jayron32. 2A02:C7D:B780:6300:99D6:EAB8:1AC:D50E (talk) 10:52, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

Ah yes. No problem then. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 10:55, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, what? --Jayron32 13:41, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

At this point it's really difficult to keep track of the conversations on this talk page but I guess what has been disheartening for some of the Ren article editors is that they've put a lot of effort into finding sources and checking on this talk page that they can be used (your comment about it being ok to use a twitter source for something the person says about themselves was quoted above), and then another admin (Drmies) who had not participated in the conversations or editing at all in the last few months took out a lot last week. I haven't been editing the article much but from following its progress and these conversations, I guess the latest substantial changes have left people a bit confused. Mackey79 (talk) 09:07, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Look at my talk page there is more to it and look at the Article's edit history. Kiwatts (talk) 09:21, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Is this reply meant for me? My comment above was a reply to Jayron32's "Sorry, what?" in an attempt to clarify why the user with no username brought their name up in these latest comments. Mackey79 (talk) 09:28, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

No look on MY profile's talk page Kiwatts (talk) 09:36, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

To clarify for myself; I last edited this article 2 weeks ago, and removed no text at that time. I also have removed no text in the intervening two weeks at all (nor edited the article.) I was confused as to why my name was brought in to the accusations of doing so. --Jayron32 12:09, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

I don’t appreciate your calling my integrity into question.  I really don't know Ren. I'm just a fan of his music and when I learned his back story after he released Hi Ren I became impressed with the person.

I focused on one thing because I researched it. I have done scientific research papers before I figured the same principles would apply. I do through work because I take pride in a job well done.  

Because of my injury, I use assistive technology to use the computer, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0s5iqRpWH9c

I have limited time to do anything. I have from 3 pm - 7 pm every day and I need to eat dinner during this time. At 7 pm I have care again. When it is over I have free time until morning in a never ending loop. If I can’t get this right, what is the point of doing anything elsewhere on the site? Kiwatts (talk) 09:24, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Oon the link I sent you via email ‪Drmies‬, I have said on this board that some of my sources were good (some), some bad and some so so. I was to keep track of them so I would know if I had seen them. Kiwatts (talk) 09:27, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Even though you won't accept Ren saying what instruments he can play in the Coffee with Ren video as something he would be reasonably expected to know. I can show proof that Ren can play piano quite well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1L32D6YINWM

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=391378045080016

https://twitter.com/Renmakesmusic/status/1656141428324708362

He also plays Bass Guitar in this video from when The Big Push performed for Live at Home (Live Nation)  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCK15U2QVJY&t=542s

I haven’t seen video of him playing drums or marimba  but I also haven’t looked

As far as careers

There are articles about him busking and loads of videos.

Ren has always produced his own music except during the time he was working with Sony. It's mentioned in several articles about him.  

I recently found out he also directs his own videos also and here is a secondary source that mentions it.

https://www.reeditionmagazine.com/to-the-minute/ren-releases-brand-new-offering-animal-flow  

It’s obvious that the more I add the less you leave.  This has been the pattern since the beginning. Kiwatts (talk) 09:35, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Let's try to keep discussion on this page short and to the point. The CoI discussion is for your own talk page Kiwatts, and I don't think it was intended as an accusation. Jayron32, there was just some confusion from editors here who thought you were green-lighting use of Twitter as a source, only to see Drmies remove thos sources. Of course, what you had said is that Twitter could be used as a source, but not that any other editor would agree it was a good use of a source in this instance for this information. The content discussion needs to be over what the article should present about Ren. Twitter can be a good source for things he has said, for instance, but then there remains a question as to whether things he has said are significant for inclusion in this article. Also, please note that although Drmies is an administrator, their edits on this page carry no more or less weight than the edits of any other editor. An admin acting as an editor is an editor. You can disagree and discuss those edits. I will say again, though, that discussion needs to be as succinct as possible. If you want other editors to read and respond, don't give them pages to wade through! Start a new section, make the case for the information you think should be in the article, and keep it short. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 12:31, 16 May 2023 (UTC)